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Old 2011-04-09, 11:53   Link #1081
magnuskn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtabby View Post
Regarding Magnus’ comments on Sheryl doing things for others rather than herself… I don’t want to cheapen what she’s doing because I think it’s very admirable, but I actually think she’s getting something out of it as well. She’s getting a purpose, and that’s something she desperately needs at this point in the story. I think Sheryl needed to sing in that shelter last episode just as much as the people in that shelter needed to hear her sing.
A purpose is not a automatically selfish thing, though, unless done for self-aggrandisement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtabby View Post
I have some mixed feelings about the confrontation between the SMS members. I really like how dramatic that sequence is. However, it also gives the impression that Alto lost to Ozma because he wasn’t certain of his purpose. Alto just promised Sheryl that he would stay with her to the end. I dislike the show implying that he's uncertain of his purpose so soon after doing that.
I can understand his problem. He also wants to go and help Ranka, almost all his friends and comrades are leaving and he is staying behind. Yet he has the dual purpose of protecting Sheryl and Frontier, so he is torn and frustrated. I don't expect him to be so singleminded that he doesn't experience doubt when almost everybody he knows leaves suddenly and apparently turns against his home.
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Old 2011-04-09, 15:56   Link #1082
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtabby View Post
I have some mixed feelings about the confrontation between the SMS members. I really like how dramatic that sequence is. However, it also gives the impression that Alto lost to Ozma because he wasn’t certain of his purpose. Alto just promised Sheryl that he would stay with her to the end. I dislike the show implying that he's uncertain of his purpose so soon after doing that.
A few episodes ago, Alto was piloting under the orders of SMS. Now he's piloting under Leon's orders. As Yasaburo will also point out in a critical scene next episode, Alto's desire to fight in the war has much less to do with his convictions regarding the Vajra than it does his desire to simply be a pilot.

Alto has his reasons for staying on Frontier, and he never abandons those feelings. That being said, this isn't quite the same as Alto's "purpose", any more than Sheryl's "purpose" is to allow herself to be protected...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtabby View Post
Regarding Magnus’ comments on Sheryl doing things for others rather than herself… I don’t want to cheapen what she’s doing because I think it’s very admirable, but I actually think she’s getting something out of it as well. She’s getting a purpose, and that’s something she desperately needs at this point in the story. I think Sheryl needed to sing in that shelter last episode just as much as the people in that shelter needed to hear her sing.
Every action carries an element of personal benefit. Even when you make a sacrifice, it's only because the end result is more important to you than whatever it is you're sacrificing. Your personal sense of satisfaction is still a benefit.

Heroism isn't so much about the virtuousness of an act as it is about the inspiration that we, as observers, decide to draw from it. Personally, the fact that Sheryl was dying held little influence on me when watching that scene - we'd known about that for two weeks prior. What really made that scene for me was the simple and earnest way in which Sheryl expressed the hopes and fears of the people around her in the shelter, as well as those fighting for them outside (without the demonstrating any abstract song powers or unnecessary flashiness). It felt very honest and very human, in a way that I'm yet to see replicated elsewhere.
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Old 2011-04-10, 00:06   Link #1083
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Before I get to the commentary backlog, let me just pick out something that is relevant to some of the recent discussions...
----

From the commentary for episode 18
Quote:
@ 7.40 on Alto
Kikuchi: Ah, he's pretending to be deep in thought.
Endou Aya/Inoue Kikuko: Ehhh!? He is thinking! What do you mean!?
(laughter - he was joking, you know)
=> "But he's got some pretty heavy burdens you know, though he's just a high schooler.
Kikuchi: Oh yeah, he is.
Endou Aya: Huh? (did you forget)?
Perhaps some of us are forgetting that Alto and Ranka are just 17 and 16 respectively? And before anyone comes back at me with "but Sheryl is only a few months older, so they have no excuse!"...

...besides the fact that Sheryl's age is 'self-proclaimed' (at least, that's what was written in the character description at the Sunshine 60 tower exhibition a month ago), Sheryl has had a wealth more experience than either of them. That's why they both took so much inspiration from her. It's called character development...

I know I personally wasn't that 'together' when I was 17, and I'd be very surprised if any of you claim you were.

======
And going back a bit further...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heibi View Post
"Nome" is the proper one. Japanese Animation tends to spell things in a weird way at times.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foreshadow View Post
You know, something bugged me.
On the 50% off Sheryl CD's it had Sheryl's name spelled as Sheryl Noam, not Nome.

But I usually see Sheryl Nome spelled as Nome, not Noam. Which one is right?
Sorry for not keeping up...but we finally have an answer for this. According to Yoshino in the same commentary, this 'mispelling' was done on purpose, because those discounted CDs are pirated copies. The animator responsible for the scene was the one who decided it, like the misspelling as well as the 50% off. (it might not have been 50% off if it wasn't a pirated version).

=======

And the rest of the episode 18 commentary!
with Yoshino Hiroyuki (Screenplay), Kikuchi Yasuhito (Director), Endou Aya (Sheryl) and Inoue Kikuko (Grace)
Spoiler for length:

oh, and p.s. I'd have loved a commentary for this episode. And 23 and 24 too...pity...
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Last edited by karice67; 2011-04-10 at 01:30.
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Old 2011-04-10, 00:50   Link #1084
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Before I get to the commentary backlog, let me just pick out something that is relevant to some of the recent discussions...
----

From the commentary for episode 18Perhaps some of us are forgetting that Alto and Ranka are just 17 and 16 respectively? And before anyone comes back at me with "but Sheryl is only a few months older, so they have no excuse!"...

...besides the fact that Sheryl's age is 'self-proclaimed' (at least, that's what was written in the character description at the Sunshine 60 tower exhibition a month ago), Sheryl has had a wealth more experience than either of them. That's why they both took so much inspiration from her. It's called character development...

I know I personally wasn't that 'together' when I was 17, and I'd be very surprised if any of you claim you were.
That's a fallacy, which I am surprised to see expoused by a writer of the show. But then I am still surprised that Yoshino thought of Alto as indecisive.

Anime predominantly has teenage protagonists. A lot of that is playing to the expected audience, of course, but given the sort of stories anime tells, adult protagonists also would fit very well, so it always seemed to be more of a cultural thing to regularly put teenagers as the only ones who can pilot giant robots.

As such, shows that have a more adult tone ( and I'd put Macross Frontiers latter episodes squarely into that category ) most times gloss over the age of their protagonists. In the specific case of Alto, he was shown as hotheaded and unsure of his way of life in the earlier part of the show, but by this point this has mostly receded and I think waving off his self-reflection because of his age is a mistake.

And I remember that I was pretty much an idiot at seventeen, but I did have a lot of self-reflective thoughts, only that I had much less life experience. But then I also wasn't a combat pilot who had killed multiple times by this point. So I am not sure which point Kikuchi was even trying to make here.

And I don't think Sheryl is much older than the others. Maybe 18.


Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
[karice: !! meaning she's at least 3/4 years older than Michel?]
Or a genius, which I woudn't put past her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
11:30 - Macross F was always evolving as they were producing it
Kikuchi: the ending was set in stone, but the 'how will we get there' kept changing. Yoshino-san would propose something crazy, which would be shot down by Kawamori-san, only for Kawamori-san to propose something crazier...and then Yoshino-san would add more
Yoshino: and then Kikuchi-san would add something good, it became like a stampede (of ideas)
If there wouldn't be those interviews where they said that having the ending like it is was a last-minute decision, I'd say "Oh, so that is why there is such a great difference between episode 24 and 25!".

Thanks, karice, for the translation!
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Old 2011-04-10, 01:22   Link #1085
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
That's a fallacy, which I am surprised to see expoused by a writer of the show. But then I am still surprised that Yoshino thought of Alto as indecisive.
I should have made it clear that Kikuchi was actually joking at that point - it's pretty obvious from the tone he uses. [note to self: even if I post timestamps and make the commentaries available, most ppl here aren't going to try listening.] My point was that they were actually reminding us that Alto has A LOT on his plate for a 17 year old.

There's some stuff on "Alto being indecisive" in the ep 20 commentary, though I'm not sure how relevant that'll be to what you believe. It's not just Yoshino either, EVERYONE talks about how indecisive Alto is, whether in the commentaries, interviews, or on the radio show. Personally, I think they have a point, at least until 24/25 where Alto finally seems at peace with what he's decided to do.

Quote:
And I don't think Sheryl is much older than the others. Maybe 18.
I think she's around 17/18 too. Was just joking about the age thing myself

Quote:
If there wouldn't be those interviews where they said that having the ending like it is was a last-minute decision, I'd say "Oh, so that is why there is such a great difference between episode 24 and 25!".
I'm pretty certain that the only last minute thing about the ending was whether to have Alto choose someone (i.e. put his choice into words) or not...

---
and you're welcome. Now to get to ep 20...orz
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Old 2011-04-10, 02:33   Link #1086
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
I should have made it clear that Kikuchi was actually joking at that point - it's pretty obvious from the tone he uses. [note to self: even if I post timestamps and make the commentaries available, most ppl here aren't going to try listening.] My point was that they were actually reminding us that Alto has A LOT on his plate for a 17 year old.

There's some stuff on "Alto being indecisive" in the ep 20 commentary, though I'm not sure how relevant that'll be to what you believe. It's not just Yoshino either, EVERYONE talks about how indecisive Alto is, whether in the commentaries, interviews, or on the radio show. Personally, I think they have a point, at least until 24/25 where Alto finally seems at peace with what he's decided to do.
That depends on how you define "indecisive". Being "indecisive" would mean to me that he cannot decide what to do and therefore is paralyzed by inaction. But that is not the Alto we are seeing.

I'd much rather say that he is "tossed around by fate", stuck in a situation where he has enormous pressure on him from different angles and is forging ahead as best as he can. In that sense Ranka leaving lifted one pressure from ( not breaking her heart further, although he loved Sheryl ), while putting another pressure on him ( wanting to go rescue Ranka, but being needed so much at home ).

I guess you can say that he was indecisive about confessing to Sheryl and even when he did, in episode 24, he botched the job somewhat by choosing a rather weak analogy. But except in deciding to go forward with his own feelings on the romantic front, in the latter episodes he did a rather excellent job in navigating the travails of the rest of his life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
I'm pretty certain that the only last minute thing about the ending was whether to have Alto choose someone (i.e. put his choice into words) or not...
Yeah, I get that and that was what I was trying to express. The point is that the finale feels very differently from the preceding six episodes. There seemed to be a certain tone to the show and suddenly we got a very noticeable shift in gears.
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Old 2011-04-10, 06:14   Link #1087
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I think the moment where he stops to be unsure is when he had is duell in episode 22 against Ozma. Not later. It was not a loss for Alto but an answer / decision to stay with the Frontier fleet.
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Last edited by Father Hentai; 2011-04-10 at 06:15. Reason: think this makes more sense...
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Old 2011-04-10, 20:56   Link #1088
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I wish some no name doctor explained things to Sheryl. Why Luca? Doesn't he do technology? Man... I really don't like him.

And I'd give Sheryl all the courage she'd ever need.
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Old 2011-04-11, 02:24   Link #1089
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
That depends on how you define "indecisive". Being "indecisive" would mean to me that he cannot decide what to do and therefore is paralyzed by inaction. But that is not the Alto we are seeing.
That's probably were we're missing each other. Not all, but certainly a fair number of the decisions Alto had made by that point were, to me, spur-of-the-moment decisions, and I personally don't think he was quite sure what he valued most.

(Adding this since it's connected):
Quote:
Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
I think the moment where he stops to be unsure is when he had is duell in episode 22 against Ozma. Not later. It was not a loss for Alto but an answer / decision to stay with the Frontier fleet.
I disagree. I think that it's not until episode 24 that Alto really shows his conviction (yes, even though he was prevented from following through), though he takes a pretty big step in 23. But we'll get to them over the next two weeks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Yeah, I get that and that was what I was trying to express. The point is that the finale feels very differently from the preceding six episodes. There seemed to be a certain tone to the show and suddenly we got a very noticeable shift in gears.
I hope you're not implying that a bittersweet ending would have been better!

========

And now for the Episode 20 Commentary, Part 1
with Nakamura Yuuichi (Alto), Kamiya Hiroshi (Michel) and Toyoguchi Megumi (Klan)

Quick comments: because of the content of this episode, this really didn't have that much about the world of Frontier, or other 'useful' information. It's more akin to these three 'reflecting' on the episode and how they felt around the time they recorded it. I wish I could share it the way it was meant to be heard: here's a taste file removed (disclaimer: pardon the timing, it's the first time I've tried this, and having a Mac instead of a PC doesn't help when it comes to aegisub...pardon the hijacking of the THORA styling too...m(_ _ )m ), but...there's just no way in hell I'd sub an entire commentary episode, much less all 9 of them.

And the rest of the first half or so...hm...the differences between some of the opinions posted here and those of the seiyuu, esp. with regards to Alto and Ranka, are quite interesting...

Spoiler for length:


I'll see if I can finish this one tomorrow...
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Old 2011-04-11, 03:55   Link #1090
Father Hentai
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Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
I wish some no name doctor explained things to Sheryl. Why Luca? Doesn't he do technology? Man... I really don't like him.

And I'd give Sheryl all the courage she'd ever need.
Uhm. What would it change? A doctor would not change anything and Lucca tried to be polite (yes, I dislike Lucca as well). Sheryl is at already at a stage where she knows she dies. And the last thing she wants is to be pitied.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
(Adding this since it's connected):I disagree. I think that it's not until episode 24 that Alto really shows his conviction (yes, even though he was prevented from following through), though he takes a pretty big step in 23. But we'll get to them over the next two weeks.
Then Ozmas questions and lecturing during their dogfight would not make sense. Or following your way at least in episode 22 Ozma forced Alto to make a clear decision as he or Ranka did.
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Old 2011-04-11, 06:18   Link #1091
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Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
Then Ozmas questions and lecturing during their dogfight would not make sense. Or following your way at least in episode 22 Ozma forced Alto to make a clear decision as he or Ranka did.
Actually it would still make sense in the context, in the context that Ozma doesn't really know Alto. So he could say things to Alto without really knowing whether or not what he is saying applies to Alto. Remember the only thing Ozma knows about Alto is that he protects his little sister, but that's about it. Ozma is not the MF equivalent of Roy Focker, he is not Alto's mentor.
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Old 2011-04-11, 06:31   Link #1092
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Actually it would still make sense in the context, in the context that Ozma doesn't really know Alto. So he could say things to Alto without really knowing whether or not what he is saying applies to Alto. Remember the only thing Ozma knows about Alto is that he protects his little sister, but that's about it. Ozma is not the MF equivalent of Roy Focker, he is not Alto's mentor.
Ozma is Altos Squad leader. Even though not his mentor Ozma has to know how his pilots roster (physical and mental) stats are and it is not the first time that Ozma reminds Alto that he is a hotheaded and impulsive person who acts first. This is now speaken of a military perspective.

Following the complete conversation Ozma did not replied without any knowledge of Alto, he knew exactly how hard his words would hit him. The only thing what was uncertain was Altos decision to stay with Frontier (his shot hitting his rudder).

And I don't think that Ranka was in the focus of their conversation although Ozma verbally slaps Alto (best way he knows to protect the women he loves). However Ranka is gone already and SMS is about to leave as well. So the last ones who still were open for a decision are Alto, Klan and Lucca.
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Last edited by Father Hentai; 2011-04-11 at 06:44. Reason: changed rooster to roster. Ozma does not command chickens -_-
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Old 2011-04-11, 07:58   Link #1093
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Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
Ozma is Altos Squad leader. Even though not his mentor Ozma has to know how his pilots roster (physical and mental) stats are and it is not the first time that Ozma reminds Alto that he is a hotheaded and impulsive person who acts first. This is now speaken of a military perspective.

Following the complete conversation Ozma did not replied without any knowledge of Alto, he knew exactly how hard his words would hit him. The only thing what was uncertain was Altos decision to stay with Frontier (his shot hitting his rudder).

And I don't think that Ranka was in the focus of their conversation although Ozma verbally slaps Alto (best way he knows to protect the women he loves). However Ranka is gone already and SMS is about to leave as well. So the last ones who still were open for a decision are Alto, Klan and Lucca.
He is Alto's squad leader yes, but that's it, he pretty much put Alto under Michael's supervision when he joined SMS. He's just related to Alto on a professional level not a personal one, which you seem to mix up. Alto does not talk to Ozma about personal matters, so Ozma has no idea where Alto's insecurities lie, all he knows is that Alto protects his little sister, that's the only thing he ever talks about with Alto. Ergo that's that's why she's the subject of their conversation during their dog fight, because that's the only thing that subject matter that Ozma knows about Alto.

You can't exactly say differently when there isn't any basis for it.
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Old 2011-04-11, 10:21   Link #1094
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He is Alto's squad leader yes, but that's it, he pretty much put Alto under Michael's supervision when he joined SMS. He's just related to Alto on a professional level not a personal one, which you seem to mix up. Alto does not talk to Ozma about personal matters, so Ozma has no idea where Alto's insecurities lie, all he knows is that Alto protects his little sister, that's the only thing he ever talks about with Alto. Ergo that's that's why she's the subject of their conversation during their dog fight, because that's the only thing that subject matter that Ozma knows about Alto.

You can't exactly say differently when there isn't any basis for it.
I am sure that I am not mixing up anything. What would it change if Alto is under Michael's supervision? Nothing. Still responsible - for both - is Ozma as a Squad Leader. And regards to Ranka Ozma asked him as Rankas brother and not to hire a professional soldier. And speaking of soldiers. You know what comradeship means, right?

Look again at the point, when SMS faces the Alto/Lucca as opponents and rewatch the dialog slowly. Look more behind Ozmas word. It was indeed not because of Ranka. It was all about Alto. Again. Ranka decided and SMS decided. So there is no need for them to discuss this in the dogfight. And Alto already lost Ranka. So what is left for him to spread his wings? For SMS (the patriots) or for Frontier (defend those who are left behind).
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Old 2011-04-11, 10:34   Link #1095
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
I hope you're not implying that a bittersweet ending would have been better!
Not at all, only that the tone of the show shifted from episode 24 to 25. It was meant as non-judgemental.

THORA still has the bad translation of that line by Klan, I fear. Unless they brought out a better version after I downloaded it months ago...

And I got this feeling that the seiyuu don't really deeply engage with the story as we do.
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Old 2011-04-11, 10:37   Link #1096
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I am sure that I am not mixing up anything. What would it change if Alto is under Michael's supervision? Nothing. Still responsible - for both - is Ozma as a Squad Leader. And regards to Ranka Ozma asked him as Rankas brother and not to hire a professional soldier.

Look again at the point, when SMS faces the Alto/Lucca as opponents and rewatch the dialog slowly. Look more behind the Ozmas word. It was indeed not because of Ranka. It was all about Alto. Again. Ranka decided and SMS decided. So there is no need for them to discuss this in the dogfight. And Alto already lost Ranka. So what is left for him to spread his wings? For SMS (the patriots) or for Frontier (defend those who are left behind).
But Ozma doesn't know Alto personally, we have never seen Alto go to Ozma for advice on his personal problems. So again yes Ozma is in charge of Alto, he's in charge of a lot of the characters from SMS, however that doesn't change the fact that Alto and Ozma do not know each other on the personal level. Because that was never shown or implied. Just because someone is in charge (read: has authority) over someone else does not always mean that they have to know each other on a personal level.

I watched the dialogue and I paid attention but unlike you I did so while taking the character and their relationship to each other into account. Which is why I hold my position. Sometimes the face value really is all there is to it.

I said it before and I'll it again Ozma is not Alto's mentor he is not MF equivalent of Roy Focker. Simply because they don't talk each other on a personal level on a subject matter that isn't Ranka. Ozma has a limited knowlodge of Alto which extends only to Alto's position in SMS and his position of Ranka's protector, that is all.
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Old 2011-04-11, 10:51   Link #1097
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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
I said it before and I'll it again Ozma is not Alto's mentor he is not MF equivalent of Roy Focker. Simply because they don't talk each other on a personal level on a subject matter that isn't Ranka. Ozma has a limited knowlodge of Alto which extends only to Alto's position in SMS and his position of Ranka's protector, that is all.
As this leads to no ending, let's wait what Yoshino says about this.

I really don't think it has something to do with Ranka because she is gone already and not reachable for Ozma or Alto. Ozma has no personal goal if Alto still claims to be protector of Ranka. He just busted his chance and Ozma reminded him for that.

As we both don't speak for the official version, I just wait what karice quotes. And if I am right, I hope you give me a cookie.
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Old 2011-04-11, 11:00   Link #1098
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Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
As this leads to no ending, let's wait what Yoshino says about this.

I really don't think it has something to do with Ranka because she is gone already and not reachable for Ozma or Alto. Ozma has no personal goal if Alto still claims to be protector of Ranka. He just busted his chance and Ozma reminded him for that.

As we both don't speak for the official version, I just wait what karice quotes. And if I am right, I hope you give me a cookie.
It would be about Ranka or about Frontier, because that is what was brought up.
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Old 2011-04-11, 16:58   Link #1099
karice67
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Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
Then Ozmas questions and lecturing during their dogfight would not make sense. Or following your way at least in episode 22 Ozma forced Alto to make a clear decision as he or Ranka did.
Alto does a lot of thinking in the next episode - that seems to be when he sorted out everything, before he tried to put it into words in 24.

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And I got this feeling that the seiyuu don't really deeply engage with the story as we do.
Mostly Kamiya and Toyoguchi...and only with this episode. It's understandable I think - they took it seriously enough back when they first recorded it (this comes out in the last few minutes of the commentary), but this was recorded ~two months after. By then, they learnt to deal with the death(s) by joking about the whole thing...

But it's probably a good thing I wasn't able to get to the commentary when you all covered the episode here!

p.s. Nakamura does joke about 'who Alto likes', but that's mostly because they didn't set it in stone for him. Various comments elsewhere indicate that he's a Sheryl fan. He brings up a few interesting points in the commentary, there's one more in 20 and a couple in 25.
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Old 2011-04-11, 17:40   Link #1100
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Alto does a lot of thinking in the next episode - that seems to be when he sorted out everything, before he tried to put it into words in 24.

Mostly Kamiya and Toyoguchi...and only with this episode. It's understandable I think - they took it seriously enough back when they first recorded it (this comes out in the last few minutes of the commentary), but this was recorded ~two months after. By then, they learnt to deal with the death(s) by joking about the whole thing...

But it's probably a good thing I wasn't able to get to the commentary when you all covered the episode here!

p.s. Nakamura does joke about 'who Alto likes', but that's mostly because they didn't set it in stone for him. Various comments elsewhere indicate that he's a Sheryl fan. He brings up a few interesting points in the commentary, there's one more in 20 and a couple in 25.
Question, did he really rethink or did he just summarize what he must do to protect what is important for him? I am not counting Ranka into what is important for him because she left and because of the next episode which fits into this discussion.
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