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Old 2011-04-13, 13:28   Link #1121
magnuskn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
The discussion with Brera and the flashbacks/memories are the scenes where she realized what she deeply wants. And it was not to be a Songstress of Hope or singing for the people of frontier.

Then see Ranka performing her two songs (which are straight meant for Alto) and Alto makes his stunt including the arrow.

In 22:04 min we see Ranka running the stairs sure to tell him what she feels.

All above scenes are in episode 19.
Oh, I am sure that Ranka would have eventually tried to talk to Alto, but without her misunderstanding the sky writing, it would probably still have taken a while.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
Learn better understanding I would say. I take this as a personal note to improve my English. However this is a free forum with no aggressive lecturing bans like in elitistjerks.
It is much more of an issue that you misunderstand important plot points when you can't even understand the words. "numb" and "dense" mean completely different things, leading to different conclusions what Michael was talking about.
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Old 2011-04-13, 17:11   Link #1122
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magnus, calm down, please. This may be an English language forum, but there are second-language users who don't know English as well as you do. Father Hentai's asking you to be understanding about that.
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Last edited by karice67; 2011-04-13 at 18:45.
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Old 2011-04-13, 18:33   Link #1123
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Oh, I am sure that Ranka would have eventually tried to talk to Alto, but without her misunderstanding the sky writing, it would probably still have taken a while.
I think even without misunderstanding the sky writing Rankas heart, she would still want to confess because she wants to know how Alto is thinking. So the scenario may still be the same that she runs the stairs and would see Alto and Sheryl on the roof. The only difference may be that she would not refuse like a spoiled child but the main question remains open: Why should she sing if the one she loves does not reflect her love.
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Old 2011-04-13, 23:47   Link #1124
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Originally Posted by karice67
As for Ranka, I think it's safe to say that your opinion differs from those of Kawamori and Yoshino. I also don't believe she deserves all the hate she's been getting.
Does it matter if your opinion is different? It's not like Kawamori can force you to like all of his characters. Or that you're "doing it wrong" if you don't.

Hate and love are never deserved. They just are. I'm a Ranka fan myself but I don't see a need to force people to like every single character. Why do you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67
magnus, calm down, please. This may be an English language forum, but there are second-language users who don't know English as well as you do. Father Hentai's asking you to be understanding about that.
I'm impressed with magnoose tbh. You can only argue with FH's "NO U" hax for so long before being overwhelmed by its awesomeness. I get the reason for your sympathy, but I honestly think that maggie deserves it more this time around.

Btw loved the "Learn better understanding" quip from FH. Somewhere far off, maggie is cursing google translate as we speak. Oh irony.

Last edited by erfine; 2011-04-13 at 23:57.
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Old 2011-04-14, 00:22   Link #1125
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Before Mags comes back with his retort, how about we drop this now. All of it. The constant carping about how Ranka should've done this, Alto couldn've done that is getting annoying since it keeps going in circles!

I forget what episode we're supposed to be on, but as a blatant hint, how about reviewing the episode thread and see if whatever topic is going on here hasn't been discussed to death already.

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Old 2011-04-14, 01:03   Link #1126
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Originally Posted by CrowKenobi View Post
Before Mags comes back with his retort, how about we drop this now. All of it. The constant carping about how Ranka should've done this, Alto couldn've done that is getting annoying since it keeps going in circles!

I forget what episode we're supposed to be on, but as a blatant hint, how about reviewing the episode thread and see if whatever topic is going on here hasn't been discussed to death already.

Hey, we got to keep ourselves amused.

Although the particular discussion of the last page should have been done two three ago, when episode 19 was actually being discussed. ^^
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Old 2011-04-14, 01:16   Link #1127
karice67
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Originally Posted by erfine View Post
Does it matter if your opinion is different? It's not like Kawamori can force you to like all of his characters. Or that you're "doing it wrong" if you don't.

Hate and love are never deserved. They just are. I'm a Ranka fan myself but I don't see a need to force people to like every single character. Why do you?
May I ask what I said to deserve this? I was just trying to point out to magnus that his is just one opinion, which a large number of people might share - why should anything think that Kawamori's and Yoshino's views of the characters they created is any less valid?

Oh, and I'm actually NOT a Ranka fan. I just think that some of us here take the hate a little too far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erfine View Post
I'm impressed with magnoose tbh. You can only argue with FH's "NO U" hax for so long before being overwhelmed by its awesomeness. I get the reason for your sympathy, but I honestly think that maggie deserves it more this time around.

Btw loved the "Learn better understanding" quip from FH. Somewhere far off, maggie is cursing google translate as we speak. Oh irony.
I'm afraid I'll have to disagree. I've been embarrassed and insulted by people (students) wrt my Japanese, so I don't think it's fair to insult people over their language ability. True, I should have picked out FH's last retort too, but (no offense, magnus), a lot of magnus's comments (retorts) in this thread and elsewhere have been borderline if not over the line.


@ CrowKenobi,
apologies if you think this is unnecessary, but I just felt a little insulted by erfine's comments.
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Old 2011-04-14, 01:25   Link #1128
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Oh, and I'm actually NOT a Ranka fan. I just think that some of us here take the hate a little too far.
May I suggest that you refrain from accusing others of "hate", then? That's a very strong word and does not describe at all what I feel about Ranka. And I am not a fictional person, so my feelings actually can get hurt.

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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
I'm afraid I'll have to disagree. I've been embarrassed and insulted by people (students) wrt my Japanese, so I don't think it's fair to insult people over their language ability. True, I should have picked out FH's last retort too, but (no offense, magnus), a lot of magnus's comments (retorts) in this thread and elsewhere have been borderline if not over the line.
I could have been quite more dismissive of previous responses which were barely legible, but held my tongue on those, because I usually don't try to be a grammar nazi. Otherwise I'd be very occupied with a few members who also don't write English very well.

But in this specific case where FH tried to tell me that Michael said something and then very specifically pointed to a particular line from a particular sub, which I own, I felt it in my right to point out when he got one crucial word completely wrong, from the exact quote to the meaning of the word.
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Old 2011-04-14, 01:47   Link #1129
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Apologies m(_ _ )m. Would "negativity" work better?

You have been pretty nice in the discussion until the last few post or so - and I do think picking that misquote out was warranted - but the tone just reminded me of another comment re: FH's grammar that you made earlier in the thread, one which I think was a little unnecessary (even given the circumstances).
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Old 2011-04-14, 05:10   Link #1130
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Guys and ladies, can we put this grammar or vocabulary issues asside? I already said that I will take the notes to improve my errors as a grammar whore. Yes, I am not making a secret out of it but I learned my English from speaking (75% through speaking with U.S. Philipinos in Germany) and some habits won't be removed by the English I learned in school. If I don't know the exact word I improve and use the word next. This may be slight or far different from the exact meaning. In Michels case I was wrong. That being said let's put this aside now.

Going back to the topic related discussions. The negative comments starts to go up after Gallia IV. It starts with the opinions about the love triangle and ends with the opinions about (not) responsibility in the role of the Songstress of Hope.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrowKenobi View Post
I forget what episode we're supposed to be on, but as a blatant hint, how about reviewing the episode thread and see if whatever topic is going on here hasn't been discussed to death already.
It repeats in some discussions e.g. Ranka is a big topic. As going for Alto I don't think this was discussed in detail as we are doing it right now. But it's a neverending story as well.
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Last edited by Father Hentai; 2011-04-14 at 06:10.
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Old 2011-04-14, 08:27   Link #1131
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
May I ask what I said to deserve this? I was just trying to point out to magnus that his is just one opinion, which a large number of people might share - why should anything think that Kawamori's and Yoshino's views of the characters they created is any less valid?

Oh, and I'm actually NOT a Ranka fan. I just think that some of us here take the hate a little too far.
I wouldn't say anyone here has shown any more hatred for Ranka than what she has received from other forums. Not everyone can like the same characters, especially when one character does something (or doesn't do something) which some viewers hold as dubious.

So far I haven't seen anyone here express out and out hatred for the character, disappointment yes, but not hatred. While hatred can stem from disappointment , that is not always the case, at least not what I've seen so far in this forum. If you really want to see some Ranka hate stemmed from disappointment I would suggest another forum. On that same note even if you do post Kawamori and Yoshino's feelings on how they view the character it won't change how other viewers feel about her, or how they viewed her behavior, simply because to be blunt and I mean no disrespect but not everyone cares about what they thought about her.

This is not just true to Macross but also to every other anime as well, (ex: Gundam Seed, the SDF Macross). To a creator a character might come across a different way because well their perspective on the character is different, because they're the ones writing the show and therefore they would personal head canon and in depth thoughts on a character that they might choose to not convey or fail to properly convey in their work. There is simply no guarantee that the way a creator wants their character to come across is the way that the audience will view them. You can't just say the audience is wrong for holding their opinion separate from the creator, because their difference might just be the fault of the creators for not properly depicting the character.

I'm sorry CrowKenobi for kinda going off topic but this does kinda have something to do with not only this episode but the series in general.
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Old 2011-04-14, 09:07   Link #1132
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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
I wouldn't say anyone here has shown any more hatred for Ranka than what she has received from other forums. Not everyone can like the same characters, especially when one character does something (or doesn't do something) which some viewers hold as dubious.

So far I haven't seen anyone here express out and out hatred for the character, disappointment yes, but not hatred. While hatred can stem from disappointment , that is not always the case, at least not what I've seen so far in this forum. If you really want to see some Ranka hate stemmed from disappointment I would suggest another forum. On that same note even if you do post Kawamori and Yoshino's feelings on how they view the character it won't change how other viewers feel about her, or how they viewed her behavior, simply because to be blunt and I mean no disrespect but not everyone cares about what they thought about her.
One question. If the creators or the seiyuus make a statement they are different of our opinion should this not give us a reason to rethink an opinion? Why disagreeing vehement although they are the person most closest to the characters? I would see this as an oppurtunity to reevaluate a made opinion without losing his face in the forums.
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Old 2011-04-14, 09:20   Link #1133
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One question. If the creators or the seiyuus make a statement they are different of our opinion should this not give us a reason to rethink an opinion? Why disagreeing vehement although they are the person most closest to the characters? I would see this as an oppurtunity to reevaluate a made opinion without losing his face in the forums.
Well that just depends on whether or not you actually care what they think. Even though the closest to the characters as the voice actors are probably given direction in terms of how to act, and possibly more information about the character, that doesn't mean anything to some people if it wasn't conveyed in the series itself. And there is the fact that some fans just don't care, about what the creators think. Its also funny because not all of the staff are in agreement with how the characters came across to them.

Last edited by wisteria233; 2011-04-14 at 09:42.
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Old 2011-04-14, 09:22   Link #1134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
One question. If the creators or the seiyuus make a statement they are different of our opinion should this not give us a reason to rethink an opinion? Why disagreeing vehement although they are the person most closest to the characters? I would see this as an oppurtunity to reevaluate a made opinion without losing his face in the forums.
Because not everything one, as a creator, sets out to do ends up being successful?
I might be tempted to try and understand why something was done the way it was, but not often would I change an opinion based on a previously undisclosed intention that was not clearly or subtly shown in the work itself, if I didn't gleam it simply from watching/reading it.

Regarding Ranka, I do think she was courageous up to a point, doing what she did this last episode. In hindsight, she could have handled it better - and that's the whole point of contention for most people here, I'd guess. It is for me, anyway.

As for Alto being indecisive... I just don't see it. If the creators wanted to express that trait, in my own humble opinion, they failed miserably.
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Old 2011-04-14, 09:44   Link #1135
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Because not everything one, as a creator, sets out to do ends up being successful?
I might be tempted to try and understand why something was done the way it was, but not often would I change an opinion based on a previously undisclosed intention that was not clearly or subtly shown in the work itself, if I didn't gleam it simply from watching/reading it.

Regarding Ranka, I do think she was courageous up to a point, doing what she did this last episode. In hindsight, she could have handled it better - and that's the whole point of contention for most people here, I'd guess. It is for me, anyway.

As for Alto being indecisive... I just don't see it. If the creators wanted to express that trait, in my own humble opinion, they failed miserably.
Its ironic because viewers really didn't start calling indecisive until the last episode aired.
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Old 2011-04-14, 09:46   Link #1136
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Its ironic because viewers really didn't start calling indecisive until the last episode aired.
Yeah, that's probably it.
Well, he was decisive enough in the movies, from what I gather, so are there any complaints about the opposite, there?
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Old 2011-04-14, 09:55   Link #1137
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Yeah, that's probably it.
Well, he was decisive enough in the movies, from what I gather, so are there any complaints about the opposite, there?
It was a retro-actively self-fulfilling. Funny how that works.

Even though movie Alto is basically almost exactly like tv series Alto.
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Old 2011-04-14, 10:23   Link #1138
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Yeah, going by the first movie I didn't really see all that much difference in his characterization - I mean, he reacted almost as hotly to the suspicion of Sheryl being a spy as he did to Ranka's offer, here.

Okay, he didn't pull a gun on her, but... you see my point, right?
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Old 2011-04-14, 11:54   Link #1139
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Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
One question. If the creators or the seiyuus make a statement they are different of our opinion should this not give us a reason to rethink an opinion? Why disagreeing vehement although they are the person most closest to the characters? I would see this as an oppurtunity to reevaluate a made opinion without losing his face in the forums.
With the seiyuus, I don't see really see it. From listening to the audio commentary it seems pretty clear that they view the characters from a fan perspective. They do not offer greater insights into them than a character analysis done by an observer and sometimes even less.

As for the writers, here the question becomes why they view some characters so differently then us ( or I ) do. That'd be in the case of Alto. In the case of Ranka, I never saw any conclusive statements by Yoshino or Kawamori on how successfull they viewed her as a character or if they intended her downfall in the latter episodes or why they let her fall.
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Old 2011-04-14, 16:57   Link #1140
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@ wisteria

Just so you know, I'm not trying to change what anyone here thinks of Ranka. I was just expressing my own opinion that I can understand why she left at that point, just as you all express your own opinions that whatever she said wasn't a good enough reason.

And I don't fault people for holding opinions different from the creators (I was only noting that theirs were different) - I don't like Ranka as much as they seem to do, after all. But here on AS, with anything positive being said on Ranka getting shot down/argued down asap, it sometimes feels like nothing is valid except the reading that "Ranka had no valid reason to leave, she made all the wrong decisions, she really regressed as a character" etc etc. If you're allowed to hold your own opinions, are the rest of us not allowed our own interpretations too?

That said, I'd like to find something more concrete about what Kawamori et al wanted to do with the characters, as that might help me put things in perspective wrt them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
With the seiyuus, I don't see really see it. From listening to the audio commentary it seems pretty clear that they view the characters from a fan perspective. They do not offer greater insights into them than a character analysis done by an observer and sometimes even less.
For other characters, I completely agree. But their comments on their own characters give me food for thought, because they have to know more than is shown in order to (help) create the character in the first place. I don't always agree with what they say ( @ the 'gentleman' thing) but it's one way of finding out what the creators intended with them.
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Last edited by karice67; 2011-04-14 at 17:34.
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