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Old 2011-04-14, 00:16   Link #22621
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cronnoponno View Post
What is with the Meta World?
The author theory was created to explain the meta world as being sort of a fictional intermission world. That serves to guide readers yes, but also allows character to grow without out-branching kakera fragments. Since the similarities between worlds didn't seem to be an emphasized point.

Quote:
I always wondered why Battler was suddenly whisked to the Meta World in Episode 2 and STILL tried to deny magic, I mean who would do that when you're clearly being warped into another dimension?
This is explained in story actually. Battler doesn't have a problem with the meta world existing he has a problem with magic and witches existing on the gameboard level and killing people.

Quote:
Are the events shown to Meta-Battler?
It depends on what you mean by "events". If you're asking if he sees what actually happens on Rokkenjima then I can't answer that. He can see what the game master wants him to see.

Quote:
If they are, does Meta-Battler control the piece Battler?
It's implied that he can, but just doesn't take advantage of it most of the time because he's incompetent or he didn't know how much he could do. He did make his piece investigate a couple of things though in episode 2.

Quote:
I mean, he was shown the fantasy battle in Episode 3 between Virgillia and Beatrice, so is he shown every fantasy scene, and become forced to stupidly contradict the scene or does he really only see the aftermath of the death, then speculate how a human could have done it?
Again he sees what the game master decides to show him. The important things about these scenes is the end result and foreshadowing a character's personality. In the example you gave there's no physical evidence something like that ever occurred or even that Kumasawa was killed outside. He's not being dumb because there's no evidence it happened the way she showed him it did anyway.


Quote:
Battler using the red truth?
He did it before (in the same episode in fact) it's not really THAT STRANGE.

Quote:
Episode 6 was even more confusing, when George and Jessica were brought into it, and went into a massive kill-fest, was Erika shown this, or does she simply see the aftermath and have to deduce what happened, and the whole fantasy scene was just a complete waste of time?
I'd assume she saw them and just didn't care for the fantasy scenes, but I don't remember her reacting to it so I really can't say for sure. The love duel is clearly an important element in episode 6 regardless of whether Erika cares or not.

Quote:
I hear a lot of people say that Kyrie is the real mother of Battler, but I have a hard time seeing where this is pointed out other than in Episode 7 by Rudolph.
There's foreshadowing for it as early as her talking to Leviathan in episode 3 actually where she says they were due to give birth on the same day in the same hospital, and Kyrie does ask "what if her baby really did survive?" In the dialogue I think. Plus it logically follows that if he's not Asumu's son he'd be Kyrie's.


Quote:
The foreshadowing on Battler's birth never seemed to be quite revealed either, is this information revealed in Episode 8?
I think so.

Quote:
If Umineko is in the same universe as Higurashi.-
It's not. Umineko is it's own world where magic can't be used as a murder method. Higurashi also happens to be Battler's favorite novel and it's also a television show in Umineko's universe according to the anime.

Last edited by Judoh; 2011-04-14 at 00:37.
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Old 2011-04-14, 00:42   Link #22622
cronnoponno
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Well, that kinda answered a bunch of questions I had, glad to have that much cleared out for me.

I still am not totally enlightened about the Meta-world though. I guess I should ask the main question I have about it:

Am I supposed to see it's plot only as a means for hints on the game board, or do I need to keep track of the magical plot in it? Like for example, should I ignore the fight between Will and Bernkastel, and only listen to what Bernkastel told Ange about what happened after Eva left the island as a clue? My main problem with that is Bernkastel and Lambdadelta, what about them? Are they ''not real'' as well?

Erika said to Beatrice: ''Well, alternate dimensions like this are actually becoming common in detective novels'', and then Beatrice says ''(forgot the name) doesn't make his debut until next year''.

And then there's the whole part where child-Ange is crying and Battler comes to tell her the story of ''what really happened'' (end of EP 7), this just really confused me. When did this happen?

Was Bernkastel's torture of Ange just a metaphor for kids bullying her in the aftermath of Rokkenjima's tragedy? Is a different form of Ange living in a different dimension(meta world), and the real Ange living in the real world, and BATTLER was telling the story to Meta-Ange, who has nothing to do with the Ange of the real world?
Was the whole court of illusions just a metaphor for Erika pinning Natsuhi as the culprit? Or are both scenes true, just the court of illusions scenario happening in a different dimension?

Stuff like that, basically.

Oh, and yeah I knew that Kyrie had said her baby was stillborn in EP 3, what I was saying is that I never saw it revealed that Battler was her son, basically, where it is revealed. But if she wasn't entirely sure it survived, that answers my question. I was just wondering how someone as smart as her could honestly not realize that her child was conveniently alive, and never heard from it again, not realizing it was Battler all along.
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Old 2011-04-14, 00:44   Link #22623
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Has their been any indication of a message bottle or forgery containing any of the Extra TIPs?
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Old 2011-04-14, 01:08   Link #22624
Judoh
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There are a lot of people don't think Ep7's Tea Party is reliable at all if you ask them. But yeah the meta world is ripe with metaphor. It's not all important though. It's a good idea to pay attention to the gameboards too. But I don't think you can call the gameboard more "true" than the meta world or anything. They're both sort of happening.

I've also heard it's been implied in EP8 that Lambdadelta and Bernkastel will appear in a later when they cry series if that helps any.

And that Ange probably represents Ange's inner child or something. Since she appears in Episode 8.

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Has their been any indication of a message bottle or forgery containing any of the Extra TIPs?
Nope. Not that I've heard of. There's always the possibility that that's the kind of stuff Ange's book is about though.
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Old 2011-04-14, 01:16   Link #22625
cronnoponno
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In other words, the whole Meta-World thing is just like the Catbox? In that case I guess I should just reread it from both perspectives when I have the time.


If Episode 8 really does reveal this much, I can't wait to buy it, I want to wait until EP 8 before I reread through the entire tale.
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Old 2011-04-14, 01:22   Link #22626
UsagiTenpura
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I won't bother to type the whole theory since it's probably going to be shut down entirely anyway but...

Basically I'm thinking Rokkenjima Prime doesn't even really matter.
"Reality" could be a girl who writes a book and showed it to someone in her class whom she has an interest to. That way trying to make said reader understand a message that's sorta "hidden" in the story.

That seems to me to make as much sense as a Rokkenjima prime we have between next to none and none at all information about. Even if that is wrong it at the very least allow me to try to see the story from a perspective of messages rather then anything, and it seems to be the goal of the arcs. Making us understand messages while playing a mystery murder game.
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Old 2011-04-14, 02:55   Link #22627
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cronnoponno View Post
If Episode 8 really does reveal this much, I can't wait to buy it, I want to wait until EP 8 before I reread through the entire tale.
As for answers in Ep8 don't get your hopes too high.

read toward the end of this

http://witch-hunt.com/hist.html

I think the EP3 interviews are also sorta relevant
http://community.livejournal.com/witchhunters

read these

http://darenome.wordpress.com/2009/0...i07-interview/

http://darenome.wordpress.com/2009/1...7-interview-2/

and this interview on EP 8

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...34#post3293734

Be prepared.
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Old 2011-04-14, 08:27   Link #22628
Renall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
I won't bother to type the whole theory since it's probably going to be shut down entirely anyway but...

Basically I'm thinking Rokkenjima Prime doesn't even really matter.
"Reality" could be a girl who writes a book and showed it to someone in her class whom she has an interest to. That way trying to make said reader understand a message that's sorta "hidden" in the story.

That seems to me to make as much sense as a Rokkenjima prime we have between next to none and none at all information about. Even if that is wrong it at the very least allow me to try to see the story from a perspective of messages rather then anything, and it seems to be the goal of the arcs. Making us understand messages while playing a mystery murder game.
While it's possible there is "no Prime," all that would do is make all Rokkenjima stories equally fictional; were that the case, we could still garner some use from it (for example, the meta-world can now be folded wholly into the fictionverse), but I think Ryukishi's intent is that there is an R-Prime in which something akin to the Rokkenjima Incident did happen. While the resolution to ep8 could very well not be in R-Prime (and there is at least one piece of evidence in favor of such a conclusion), I get the sense that it was intended that such a first-order fiction layer exists.

Understand that R-Prime itself need not necessarily be the top-level fiction. To use your example, you could have something like:

Story Some Girl Wrote In Class > "Rokkenjima Prime" & Meta-World > Rokkenjima Stories > Embellishments of Stories

In your example of a "no Prime," R-Prime is not a developed universe, but more of a template in which the girl writing the story is drawing from. People, places, and events are all the same, allowing the Rokkenjima Stories to pull things from them (Battler and Yasu, Kinzo's mysterious condition, the Ushiromiya family and their business problems). It "exists," but the girl writing the higher-order fiction isn't concerned with fleshing it out, opting instead to use the Meta-World as a bridge layer where she'll develop her characters.

Of course, this could go on forever; you could insert an additional heretofore-unseen fictional layer above that one, and another above that, and perhaps a meta-reality layer on top of ours. But they're not as strongly supported as an R-Prime is by the Rokkenjima Stories, which is why I think a "no Prime" ordering is unlikely but not impossible.

It's very much a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude thing.
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Old 2011-04-14, 12:12   Link #22629
cronnoponno
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I'm gonna ask.

What is ''R-Prime''? Is it Rokkenjima after the tragedy? Is it the Rokkenjima where the game-board is at?
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Old 2011-04-14, 12:23   Link #22630
Renall
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It's the "real world" of Umineko, if such a thing exists at all.

Basically the "reality" in which the Rokkenjima Incident happened and the world that discovered the message bottle stories and the world in which the subsequent stories were written and read.

If it exists.
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Old 2011-04-14, 13:51   Link #22631
Keriaku
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There is other theories about the Meta-World as well. I'm not gonna go into hufe detail, but I believe that the meta-world is a bigger space on top of the 3-dimensional reality, where consciousness is more free form and has more control. Under my definition Higurashi and Umineko are linked through the same meta-world, just the stories told are greatly different based on the perspectives and restrictions put on them. (such as knowledge about how the Fragments work and restrictions such as the fantasy vs. mystery) For me, it's the meta-world story line that's important, but all theories of the meta-world seem to be more or less equal and it really comes down to personal taste and stance towards the story.

Check out some of my signature links if you want more in depth info on my theory.
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Old 2011-04-14, 13:58   Link #22632
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
It depends on what you mean by "events". If you're asking if he sees what actually happens on Rokkenjima then I can't answer that. He can see what the game master wants him to see.
She comments directly on it, so yea.

Quote:
I still am not totally enlightened about the Meta-world though. I guess I should ask the main question I have about it:

Am I supposed to see it's plot only as a means for hints on the game board, or do I need to keep track of the magical plot in it? Like for example, should I ignore the fight between Will and Bernkastel, and only listen to what Bernkastel told Ange about what happened after Eva left the island as a clue? My main problem with that is Bernkastel and Lambdadelta, what about them? Are they ''not real'' as well?

Erika said to Beatrice: ''Well, alternate dimensions like this are actually becoming common in detective novels'', and then Beatrice says ''(forgot the name) doesn't make his debut until next year''.

And then there's the whole part where child-Ange is crying and Battler comes to tell her the story of ''what really happened'' (end of EP 7), this just really confused me. When did this happen?

Was Bernkastel's torture of Ange just a metaphor for kids bullying her in the aftermath of Rokkenjima's tragedy? Is a different form of Ange living in a different dimension(meta world), and the real Ange living in the real world, and BATTLER was telling the story to Meta-Ange, who has nothing to do with the Ange of the real world?
Was the whole court of illusions just a metaphor for Erika pinning Natsuhi as the culprit? Or are both scenes true, just the court of illusions scenario happening in a different dimension?

Stuff like that, basically.
Honestly, it doesn't MATTER if any of that happened or not. The Meta-World is metaphorical and metafictional. Don't worry about the literal content so much as the metaphorical content (Will's and Bernkastel's battle being an editorial fight over whether or not the Lion character should have a happy ending or not, for instance).

@R-Prime: Basically everything we've read about the Rokkenjima Incident is a story or manuscript that was read or written by characters like Ange or Hachijou. Therefore, there has to theoretically be a "Rokkenjima Prime" that is none of these "worlds" and is the actual truth of what happened. Whether or not the 1998(s) we've seen is part of Rokkenjima Prime is debatable.
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Old 2011-04-14, 17:51   Link #22633
ErenselTheJester
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
You forget that for one thing, the servants only call each other their real names when they're alone and not on duty. It's a special thing. Moreover, just because they tease her as Yasu in some scenes and call her Shannon in other scenes (note most of the scenes where they call her Shannon has some sort of adult like Genji present), does not mean they consider the two names to belong to separate entities. Moreover, the only time the names Yasu and Shannon are used by the same persons in the same conversation is in the meta-fourth wall break when they're speaking to Zepar and Furfur.



Yea, but she doesn't learn that she's Kinzo's child until years later; about two years before Battler came back to the island. Please explain what purpose a ten year old orphan would have for getting a fucking name change.

There's no evidence for Yasu speaking to her imaginary friends OUTLOUD, so I'll just ignore that.



The simpler answer is that Yasu and Shannon were always the same person and she just decided to fully accept her servant role of Shannon. Shannon, beforehand, was an idealization, not how she was actually performing. A goal. Though Yasu had always been called Shannon, only at that point did she decide to acknowledge it as a name, and even then she's sort of running away from that and trying to acknowledge Shannon as an alternate person. It's like how people put on different faces and personas for the workplace than they do at home. No memory-editing, running away, or info-destroying required.

I don't understand why so many people have such a problem grasping such simple metaphorical prose. It's not that confusing.
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Did you even read EP7?

Kinzo wasn't aware of Yasu being his child until MINUTES BEFORE HIS DEATH. Yasu doesn't talk to her characters out loud, it's all in her mind. Shannon didn't exist as a real person, she was a persona of Yasu's. The ACTUAL Shannon (Sayo Yasuda. As Aura said, deductive reasoning.) was always clumsy, and the pro maid Shannon was the character, later rewritten into Yasu's role.

The little "I became a witch" was symbolic. Yasu didn't erase her existance. She rewrote the character of Shannon to be exactly what she'd been, while creating her witch persona.

Not to mention, as said many times, the servant names are BLESSED NAMES. If they asked for a name change they'd be pretty much kicked out by Natsuhi and her exaggerated amounts of strictness. Genji string pulling or not.

And it wouldn't be unusual if the maids randomly switched between calling her Yasu and by her servant name. Hell, I sometimes call people by their names then randomly switch and use their nicknames. Not unusual. The bits where Shannon answers, if you pay attention, are completely ignored by the Maids of Purgatory.
"Hello, Kinzo- Sama, may I please have my name changed to Shannon. I feel indebted to her for being my one and only friend in the mansion. If you have it in your heart to do so, I would be very grateful."

"Yes, you may have your name change."

Few hours later, Natsuhi is notified of the change.

"Yasu! How dare you change your blessed name!? Who gave the right?"

Genji: "It was deemed by the master for her name to be changed."

"But that's madness!"

"It was deemed by Master himself."

"Well, fine! Go off and then!"

Now, to clarify, whether she knew Kinzo was her father or not, she still had benefits that she could exploit. Even a ten year old child would figure when she's getting special treatment, especially when they are bullied for it. And we all know that Natsuhi wouldn't argue against Kinzo.

And yes, I did read Ep7. It confused the heck out of me (I understood the events that transpired, the reasoning behind the events-- specifically, Yasu's backstory-- is what confused me), which is why I made up my own theory to make it all make sense in my head. Now, I understand that they could've switched randomly between names, thank you for that explanation.

Now please tell me how a girl "becomes a witch" and the servant "persona" stays behind, has her memory re-written, and becomes real. Furthermore, how does she create another boy "persona," practically talks to herself in public, and no one says anything about it?

Listen, I'm not trying to dispute anything. I just don't understand Yasu's backstory and YasuShannontrice doesn't help explain it fully.
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Old 2011-04-14, 19:02   Link #22634
UsagiTenpura
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
While it's possible there is "no Prime," all that would do is make all Rokkenjima stories equally fictional; were that the case, we could still garner some use from it (for example, the meta-world can now be folded wholly into the fictionverse), but I think Ryukishi's intent is that there is an R-Prime in which something akin to the Rokkenjima Incident did happen. While the resolution to ep8 could very well not be in R-Prime (and there is at least one piece of evidence in favor of such a conclusion), I get the sense that it was intended that such a first-order fiction layer exists.

Understand that R-Prime itself need not necessarily be the top-level fiction. To use your example, you could have something like:

Story Some Girl Wrote In Class > "Rokkenjima Prime" & Meta-World > Rokkenjima Stories > Embellishments of Stories

In your example of a "no Prime," R-Prime is not a developed universe, but more of a template in which the girl writing the story is drawing from. People, places, and events are all the same, allowing the Rokkenjima Stories to pull things from them (Battler and Yasu, Kinzo's mysterious condition, the Ushiromiya family and their business problems). It "exists," but the girl writing the higher-order fiction isn't concerned with fleshing it out, opting instead to use the Meta-World as a bridge layer where she'll develop her characters.

Of course, this could go on forever; you could insert an additional heretofore-unseen fictional layer above that one, and another above that, and perhaps a meta-reality layer on top of ours. But they're not as strongly supported as an R-Prime is by the Rokkenjima Stories, which is why I think a "no Prime" ordering is unlikely but not impossible.

It's very much a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude thing.
Just to clarify what I was trying to say, I am basically saying that "Rokkenjima Prime isn't any more necessary then the girl writing in class".
It is normally a given that you do not see the author within the fiction. However it is very normal that you can still learn a lot about an author from their work. Ryuukishi is not a Umineko character. Also, normally authors aren't trying to make anyone find anything about the "real world". If they did, I'd at least expect it to be a bit more direct then Umineko. Generally speaking, I do not see outside of Ange an interest in finding a "single truth" about what "really happened" (if that means anything).

To me your order of things is almost the other way around.
<Author Level, whatever it is> obviously would be the highest level of reality, wether or not we actually see it within Umineko.
That produced arc 1, a fictional story that is intended to be discovered that is such.
At the end of arc 1 instead of having everyone visually dying, instead the scenes change to a "breaking the fourth wall" event where we see the characters talking about the story they were just in, fully aware that it is a story and wondering about it's genre.
That in itself isn't very uncommon. Many stories showed us, especially at the end, scenes with the characters breaking the fourth wall completely and talking about the story they were just in.

However in Umineko, these scenes actually become part of the story, and a story on their own. That is the meta-world, the world of breaking the fourth wall (except it's the fourth wall of the fiction within fiction they are breaking it seems). Obviously a "breaking the fourth wall level" cannot exist without the story it orriginates from.

As thus to me, the Meta-World is a third and much lower level then the main story. It does affect back however the main story.

Then the final and lowest level to me would be that so called "Rokkenjima Prime". To me it's like a byproduct of "the rest". It is only because we were gradually showed all the other levels that we wanted to find out an "absolute level" and that's Rokkenjima Prime. To give a very simple example of what it can mean, is that to me Yasu's personality is that of an author of a mystery story in relation to their work. She does things for reasons normally author woulds, but normally authors aren't in their fiction. As thus I am lead to believe that Yasu's backstory is only born out of trying to make sense on "how could a human being actually have the same personality as an author toward their work". (If you don't get what I mean by an author in relation to their work, well author make murders in their story cause it makes them more interesting, they don't have hatred or vengence etc for their "victims").

So to me it's like...

Author Level - Fictional Level - Breaking the Fourth Wall (meta world) - Rokkenjima Prime Byproduct of the rest.

Tho if I was to actually explain my thoughts concerning this and why I came to believe this, I'd write like 2-3 pages of stuff per point I made in this post.
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Old 2011-04-14, 20:24   Link #22635
Judoh
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Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
Now please tell me how a girl "becomes a witch" and the servant "persona" stays behind, has her memory re-written, and becomes real. Furthermore, how does she create another boy "persona," practically talks to herself in public, and no one says anything about it?

Listen, I'm not trying to dispute anything. I just don't understand Yasu's backstory and YasuShannontrice doesn't help explain it fully.
Because her memory was always like that and there was always only one person in that room. Remember magic is an "embellishment" of the facts in Umineko.

And the story fits with what we know about Shannon in previous episodes. In other words her being, a servant for 10 years, and being a a bit of a clutz and her childhood promise with Battler. The Shannon Yasu talks to is her image of the ideal servant she wants to become and she emphasizes this constantly in episode 7 with her admiration of her and calling her the complete opposite of herself.

As for Kanon nobody actually sees her talking to herself. Besides Genji who doesn't matter. One explanation seems to be that they did notice, but that the thought of them being the same person seemed just as unthinkable of an idea to them as it was for us.
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Old 2011-04-15, 08:26   Link #22636
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Frankly, I'm not entirely convinced that Hachijou isn't a legitimately supernatural being. Alternatively, Episodes 4 and 6 were written after Hachijou met Ange in EP8's epilogue.
Even if she is a supernatural being, her witch version didn't seem to be omniscient, and if she is, why not tell Battler where Ange was when he was trying to contact her for decades? EP3 and EP4 have always been shown as being found when Eva was still alive.


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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Again, the same goes in the anime as in the VN. Mammon apparently penetrates the gun which makes it explode, then Ange pops a cap off in her face.
Which makes it seem like more than a figment of Ange's imagination.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
The anime implies no such thing; Eva doesn't manifest until they're all already dead. You're insisting your interpretations onto what the anime is actually showing and passing your interpretation as an objective view.
Most people interpret that scene as Kasumi and her men being killed by someone sniping at them which Ange imagining the Stakes, then the Eva figure appears with a gun. It's a reasonable assumption.
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Old 2011-04-15, 13:50   Link #22637
Kylon99
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By the way, I was going over some of those interview links Judoh posted...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryukishi interview after EP3
Mystery and fantasy have created the same result -- that's the key point. This is only pertaining to EP2. It gets worse in EP3 when the fantasy portion is incongruent with the result. The bodies of the six people killed on the first night are found in locations different from the locations they were killed in the fantasy scenario. Kumasawa fought in the rain, so she should have been stained with mud; but in reality such detail is not reported. Compared to EP2, EP3 is completely messed up by magic.
EP3 is when Battler-Tooya took over the writing, right? I wonder if the break in style indicates that Tooya was more incompetent or just felt free to break the rules much more than Beatrice. 8)

I'd still like to go back through EP3 and 4 and view it from Battler-Tooya's perspective...
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Old 2011-04-15, 15:11   Link #22638
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
"Hello, Kinzo- Sama, may I please have my name changed to Shannon. I feel indebted to her for being my one and only friend in the mansion. If you have it in your heart to do so, I would be very grateful."

"Yes, you may have your name change."

Few hours later, Natsuhi is notified of the change.

"Yasu! How dare you change your blessed name!? Who gave the right?"

Genji: "It was deemed by the master for her name to be changed."

"But that's madness!"

"It was deemed by Master himself."

"Well, fine! Go off and then!"
And Kinzo would do this because...? And Yasu would ask this because...?

Hell, how would Yasu even get a chance to ask that sort of thing of him? She's not a One-Winged Servant, yet, and neither of them know of their blood ties.

Quote:
Now please tell me how a girl "becomes a witch" and the servant "persona" stays behind, has her memory re-written, and becomes real. Furthermore, how does she create another boy "persona," practically talks to herself in public, and no one says anything about it?
Imagine a girl named Sayo Yasuda, with the servant name Shannon. She was clumsy, young, and was obviously treated special, so she was bullied for being a pain for everyone else. She was even given her own private room. To cope, she made up an imaginary friend. The perfect servant everyone liked who was super nice and flawless; the Shannon she WANTED to be.

Eventually she discovers the fun of pranking, so she continues being a servant by day, and at night she dresses up in a witch costume and plays around, simple as that. She doesn't have any sort of multiple personalities, she's just a dedicated roleplayer, pretending to be two people in order to feel powerful and less lonely.

For that same reason, she eventually creates Kanon to help bandage her heart in-between lovers, pretending and dressing up as both throughout, and made sure their schedules didn't conflict and betray her secret. Telling Genji, Nanjo, or Kumasawa is pretty unnecessary; the second they found out, they'd have to support the illusion because otherwise Yasu would probably get fired and kicked off the island, which would spoil their master plan to return Kinzo his child and allow him redemption. Cue massive string-pulling to get everyone to not question Kanon's existence.

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Even if she is a supernatural being, her witch version didn't seem to be omniscient, and if she is, why not tell Battler where Ange was when he was trying to contact her for decades? EP3 and EP4 have always been shown as being found when Eva was still alive.
You're arguing that Hachijou/Featherine isn't a witch or omniscient because she didn't tell Battler where Ange was? She, who taught Bernkastel the taste of meat? Come on now, be serious.

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Which makes it seem like more than a figment of Ange's imagination.
How so? A figment of her imagination penetrates a figment of her imagination and then she picks up a gun and shoots the ground. What the hell is the problem?

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Most people interpret that scene as Kasumi and her men being killed by someone sniping at them which Ange imagining the Stakes, then the Eva figure appears with a gun. It's a reasonable assumption.
Turn the chessboard over. If someone sniped off Kasumi and company, why would they appear before Ange and leave their vantage point? And in order for this person to be sniped, Mammon would have to correlate with another bullet, meaning that there is either a second sniper, or this Eva figure doesn't correlate with either Ange, the sniper, or any of the dead people, meaning it has no implied or demonstrated character to represent.

The Eva figure is nothing more but a personification of the Black Witch; the metaphorical final obstacle that Ange has to smash in order to complete her worldview. That's all.
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When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
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Old 2011-04-15, 18:03   Link #22639
ErenselTheJester
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Location: In the Meta- World... on Virgillia's bed.
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Because her memory was always like that and there was always only one person in that room. Remember magic is an "embellishment" of the facts in Umineko.

And the story fits with what we know about Shannon in previous episodes. In other words her being, a servant for 10 years, and being a a bit of a clutz and her childhood promise with Battler. The Shannon Yasu talks to is her image of the ideal servant she wants to become and she emphasizes this constantly in episode 7 with her admiration of her and calling her the complete opposite of herself.

As for Kanon nobody actually sees her talking to herself. Besides Genji who doesn't matter. One explanation seems to be that they did notice, but that the thought of them being the same person seemed just as unthinkable of an idea to them as it was for us.
Thank you! Now, I completely understand the theory. Well, sort of... If they ignore the fact that she talks to herself, then why does Gohda talk to the both of them? I assume that the scenes with her and Kanon are completely from her perspective and that no one really refers to Kanon, it just seems that way.
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Old 2011-04-15, 21:22   Link #22640
Kealym
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Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
If they ignore the fact that she talks to herself, then why does Gohda talk to the both of them? I assume that the scenes with her and Kanon are completely from her perspective and that no one really refers to Kanon, it just seems that way.
Pretty much. Those scenes, if I recall, arent really from any one person's perspective, and I think they keep the trait that "nothing in the conversation changes if you remove Kanon, anyway".

There are, however, a couple instances where that's not the case - for example, Rosa was presented as clearly acknowledging them both in EP2, outside the Chapel - but that's just sort of the author's ability to do whatever, because Battler doesn't see that and Rosa was probably recruited into a scheme by then. Same as the prison scenes in EP4.

Though, even if it's unnecessary, I think it's silly to think that Gensawajo was completely ignorant of Shkanon.
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