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Old 2011-04-13, 18:59   Link #101
sople
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The role for Sakura was necessary because she was one of the heroines in the VNs. Ever notice that VN adaptations tend to mix the routes? It's for a good reason. You don't just do a 1:1 adaptation of a single route. You're changing mediums. The anime you make is supposed to stand on its own as an adaptation and needs to include a role for important characters like Sakura. In fact the Sakura bit was written by Nasu himself.

As far as F/SN goes, the anime had more merit than people give it credit for including adding in the ep 14 fight that was left out of the novel, better pacing, and an OST that put the original to shame.
But it doesn't really matter because this type of arguing seems to perpetuate the idea that studios can be judged for a single work. In this case F/SN is a popular VN because it's translated and so when people think DEEN they think F/SN or When They Cry.

Have you even watched things like Giant Killing or Shion no Ou? DEEN is not passed their prime. They have been doing great work since '85 with the very first anime they did on their own (Angel's Egg) and they will continue to do so.

Overzealous fans of the source will always complain that the studios that produced an adaptation they don't like is shit, but it's not the case. DEEN isn't my favorite studio or anything, it's just lame to see people make generalizations of a studio when they clearly know nothing about them. Plenty of studios get undeserved hate, but DEEN gets the most undeserved hate by far.
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Old 2011-04-13, 19:23   Link #102
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Except that she has barely any role that is close to what she originally was in the VN. There is absolutely no iron rule that force studio to adapt -every- route to begin with: I can't call that a good reason, when it is detrimental to the overal series execution, storytelling and actual consistency here and there.
Also, it is ironic you use the argument that an anime adaptation has to stand on its own, while adaptations made by DEEN are not being able to sustain the way they were: can you really explain everything in F/SN with their adaptation? They bring more question than necessary (regardless if Sakura was an heroine or not, involving her bring even more points to explain than it would be without her: it isn't like you need her for a plain "holy grail war" tale. Surely it would if you want to deconstruct Shirou, but that's a whole different story, hence why it is a complete different route in the actual VN).

To each their own I guess, but the merits you are mentioning are hardly convincing, and that is from someone who isn't really a fan of the franchise (I care way more for Tsukihime than F/Sn, especially that I dislike 70% of the cast in the latter) to begin with, be it VN or anime. Whereas the scores are an obvious extra, pacing isn't really in my book, but more importantly, the way the characters are acting are even more dubious than already.

Whereas a studio should be judged for the majority of their works, the usual trend is still pertinent because it is based on a -recent- and -major- work of theirs. If it was a nudge regarding a "nobody knows" piece such like GetBackers, that would be ridiculous. However, bringing these 2 big names are clearly an indication of how their staff are actually putting priority on: adapting, simply because they can roll on the franchise popularity? That is like what JC Staff has done to Tsukihime to say it plainly.


I can't consider a studio being actually "good" if they actually can't manage properly their manpower and budget. I wouldn't call Studio DEEN an average studio if it was only 1 feeble adaptation, but it is clearly obvious that they are piling either bad adaptatons (aforementioned series), or arguably do not make much efforts for others (Dragon Crisis, Zombie, etc).
If they were consistently producing "ok" adaptations series like Seitokai, why not, they are my guests. But building such list over a decade is really not convincing.

So, being it on their "prime" is really not what I can consider as actual period for them. Especially if we factor a recent production of 2009 that left VN and non VN readers puzzled for the vast majority of the runtime of the said franchise.

By the way, I consider C;H as a shitty adaptation, but that doesn't mean I consider Madhouse as a crappy studio, despite I was definitely upset big time. So generalization that people dislking an adaptation are blindly overzealous is sort of misplaced in my books, especially when we talk about a studio in general here, not a single series.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2011-04-13 at 19:33.
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Old 2011-04-13, 19:35   Link #103
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Well, in any case the last straw was definitely that POS movie Unlimited Blade Works. Even if I could toss the "stand alone" argument for it, I'd really like anyone to explain how that could make any comprehensible sense by itself...
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Old 2011-04-13, 19:43   Link #104
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The addition of giving a heroine a role is much more important than leaving not explaining every single detail involving said role. You claim that there is no rule that studios have to mix the routes, but do you think it's a coincidence everyone does it? They do it because they know how to change mediums.

The "atrocities" in the list are ridiculous. Zombie? I spoke with someone who was reading the novels raw, he said he preferred the anime. Dragon Crisis? The source was so terrible the translators dropped it saying it was too boring.

Ichizon, Shion no Ou, Fruits Basket, Touka Gettan, and Yami to Boushi are well liked anime.
The only hate Fruits Basket gets is from the fact that the author herself said she didn't like it. If you think that means the adaptation was bad, I can point you to the author of Kare Kano who said the same thing and was blatantly wrong.

It's funny that fans of the When They Cry series hate DEEN when they are the only reason they have a translation. Following the success of the Higurashi anime, people loved it so much they decided to translate not only Higurashi, but Umineko as well. Is it surprising that DEEN decided to not put a solid budget into doujin work that wasn't even popular? Not in the slightest. And if DEEN didn't pick it up no one else would have.

I've already pointed you to several anime within the last 5 years that were all great.
Simoun, MariMite, Shion no Ou, Giant Killing. Maybe even Amatsuki or season 2 of Jigoku Shoujo qualify, and I think Zipang was a couple years earlier.

But the fact that DEEN does have several great anime in every 5 year interval since they started making anime isn't something that can be said about most studios. In fact aside from Madhouse, you would have a difficult time listing a studio that did.
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Old 2011-04-13, 20:05   Link #105
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Wasn't also Vampire Knight well received by particularly female fans? Not meaning to defend the studio and says it's actually good, but I don't think everything they produced was garbage. Mediocre, yes, but I think I've seen far worse.
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Old 2011-04-13, 20:10   Link #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sople View Post
The addition of giving a heroine a role is much more important than leaving not explaining every single detail involving said role. You claim that there is no rule that studios have to mix the routes, but do you think it's a coincidence everyone does it? They do it because they know how to change mediums.
Except that she wasn't even remotely an heroine in that adaptation: in fact, most people were puzzled of her sudden "involvement" by the end, and having a forced explanation was just a very bad direction choice. The plot itself didn't require anything related to HF, yet they could keep her for "casual days".
And that's an opinion from someone who watched the anime -before- reading the VN (and I assure you that a lot of things went past my head, considering how forceful and irrelevant they were over time the series was going).

"Everyone"? Certainly, but a majority of studios actually adapt a lot without going overboard. Example: Kyoto Animation skipped few sub routes for Clannad (namely Ryou/Kappei), and it was for good measure.
Likewise, it isn't like we had a full adaptation for H2O, did we?
Phantom of Inferno also had a compromise without pulling stuff from a random route and leaving things up to the audience to figure out.

As much as expanding the "main route" with other routes is a common practice, most studios just put the relevant elements.

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The "atrocities" in the list are ridiculous. Zombie? I spoke with someone who was reading the novels raw, he said he preferred the anime. Dragon Crisis? The source was so terrible the translators dropped it saying it was too boring.
You are basing Zombie's worth with 1 single feedback? I wouldn't call atrocity per se (that's Malkuth's opinion anyway), but the adaptation had clear issues, and it was painful obvious to me despite I have no knowledge of the original material (that does not mean I can claim the LN was better, but I can say the execution left a lot to be desired).
This is the same for Dragon Crisis, and the fact the original material being average/mediocre doesn't excuse that.
Execution and production is key: I barely could get myself in Level E manga, yet the anime adaptation was clever.


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Ichizon, Shion no Ou, Fruits Basket, Touka Gettan, and Yami to Boushi are well liked anime.
The only hate Fruits Basket gets is from the fact that the author herself said she didn't like it. If you think that means the adaptation was bad, I can point you to the author of Kare Kano who said the same thing and was blatantly wrong.
Ichizon suffered a lot of budget issue, but adaptation itself was fine. Shion no Ou also got a utter issue with quality past the first half of the series. FB was going astray at some point, which actually made me read the manga due to this (to be honest, I didn't know Takaya didn't like it). I can't say for Touka Gettan, but Yami to Boushi was mainly praised by the "shocking Yuri" element principally.

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It's funny that fans of the When They Cry series hate DEEN when they are the only reason they have a translation. Following the success of the Higurashi anime, people loved it so much they decided to translate not only Higurashi, but Umineko as well. Is it surprising that DEEN decided to not put a solid budget into doujin work that wasn't even popular? Not in the slightest. And if DEEN didn't pick it up no one else would have.
I assure you that I "hate" Deen even before Umineko, but whatever.
Doujin work that wasn't even popular? I certainly have a problem with that: you can't call that "not popular" when they managed to sell so many copies. In fact, I believe the drama CD were pretty well received way before the anime.
Even now, we have random LN being adapted, so a doujin that can be sold for thousand copies isn't a sketch.

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I've already pointed you to several anime within the last 5 years that were all great.
Simoun, MariMite, Shion no Ou, Giant Killing. Maybe even Amatsuki or season 2 of Jigoku Shoujo qualify, and I think Zipang was a couple years earlier.

But the fact that DEEN does have several great anime in every 5 year interval since they started making anime isn't something that can be said about most studios. In fact aside from Madhouse, you would have a difficult time listing a studio that did.
Did I say they never made any "good" productions? I don't think so. The issue is totally different: it is plainly their tendency to cut corners with budgets and going full force with liberal choices in various adaptations process (oh, it isn't like they are alone: JC staff is in the same boat, although they actually pour a proper budget even for mild adaptation such like Index).
And you can't exactly consider their best productions as being the majority, nor their "biggest franchise" are part of these productions (which is why F/Sn and Naku Koro ni series are mentioned).

In a way, acejem summed things nicely: mediocre, but there are worse (ZECKS, XEBEC, etc).
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Old 2011-04-13, 20:12   Link #107
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Wasn't also Vampire Knight well received by particularly female fans? Not meaning to defend the studio and says it's actually good, but I don't think everything they produced was garbage. Mediocre, yes, but I think I've seen far worse.
Wait, they made that crap too? Another strike... j/k Well, I mean surely every studio out there has turned up with crap like the aforementioned chaos;head, but it seems some screw up more than others. They've all made something good or bad, but some feel that the bad outweighs the good...
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Old 2011-04-13, 20:31   Link #108
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Sakura didn't have to be a heroine, she just had to have some screen time or it wouldn't make sense that a character that played a huge role in the VN was hardly to be seen in the anime.

You're pointing to KyoAni's adaptation of CLANNAD to support your point? They mixed in how many routes into a single season? Fuuko's, Kotomi's, Nagisa's and that one flashback arc. Even then they still devoted a lot of screen time for Ryou and Kyou. Not only that, F/SN barely added in much from the other routes while CLANNAD essentially added the entire thing for each route they added.

Zombie had no issues specific to the anime. Most complaints I see regarding Zombie where bad integration of drama. I have read bits of the LN and it had the same drama. But what does it matter when it is a comedy and the anime is clearly more funny than the LN.

I dropped Dragon Crisis because it was bad, but from what I saw they actually made some good choices. In particular speeding up the initial episodes until Rose said "I love you." since those would have been all the more dreadful if taken as slowly as the LNs.

Studios like KyoAni, GAINAX, BONES... they produce such little work that they are expected to put in a lot of budget and effort into each individual work. On the other hand very large studios like DEEN, Madhouse, Toei and the like cannot do that. It's not uncommon for these studios to produce 3 anime in the same season, they're not all going to be hits. And this philosophy doesn't make them inherently inferior. In this case the most important factor is how many good anime they make, and all the last 3 studios I mentioned have all proven that they are consistently able to keep pumping out good shows over the years.
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Old 2011-04-13, 20:53   Link #109
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And such character played a huge role only in -1- specific route, albeit she is definitely "there" during Fate and UBW. Again, her relative role was really unecessary to forcefully add. That's like dragging a secret character from a given VN and nudge them despite the plot is centred on the "main girl". That doesn't make much sense, unless the current event are actively involving them.
Really, I can't understand why you can't defend such choice despite it brought more unecessary things, and absolutely doesn't flesh out the route they have chosen. If it was THAT necessary, they would have brought the same crap with UBW movie, and they just didn't.


I'm not using Clannad alone, but so be it: the main plot does involve more characters than Nagisa to begin with, and After Story wouldn't be solved without actually these characters.
Which is drastically different since the purpose in that adaptation is to deliver the true route, requiring the biggest chunk. Of course, if it was solely about Nagisa, they would have done something more focused, which is what Toei did for the movie.
Meanwhile, F/SN was a simple mish mash of Fate with few random things from UBW and HF, despite Fate route work as a stand alone.

If it was the integration of the drama for Zombie, it wouldn't be that much of an issue. It is more how lackluster few scenes are, and how it is -presented- which is anime specific, since it is based on the compositioN.
And sorry, but despite being comedy centred, Zombie was appreciated for the characters and the interactions, which were sort of fueled with the said drama you are discarding. It did matter, albeit it was badly integrated (otherwise people wouldn't give a damn about Yuu, which is really not the case).
But beyond the drama being not so timely effective, it is how it was portrayed (Yoruno being a frigging pole, etc). And even if the LN was like that to begin with, that does not mean they have to stick to it (they did take their own liberties... well, Seras' bust size for instance *ahem*).


This philosophy doesn't make them inherently inferior, although I would question then the following point: even if we put budget aside, budget does not mean they suddenly should change things despite it is easier for them to stick with original material.
It isn't like they are asked to make a damn Haruhi or KnK, and it isn't like they can't skip horrible projects like dragon crisis. You are suggesting their size justify the number of crappy projects, which is inane, really. I see the point of having a quota to fill, but there are limits to that kind of stuff.

The main point for a studio is to make a relatively interesting show so they can -rack money with DVD/BD- sales. The fact that studios in general do not release masterpiece like candies doesn't mean they can slack like they are doing for the past 2-3 years. (I wish I still had umineko DVD/BD sales, it was so sad that it was an obvious unprofitable venture for them, not like they didn't see it coming with what they did).
And while we are it, despite madhouse doing the same kind of strategy, they aren't pulling so many flukes (but they still do, obviously).
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Old 2011-04-13, 21:15   Link #110
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Yet you still can't understand why a studio doesn't want to release an anime that almost completely ignores an important character's existence. Regardless of whether or not you think the role of Sakura was done properly in the anime, it had to be done. Anyone who's not extremely new to the genre can watch the first few episodes and recognize that Sakura was a heroine.

I really doubt that your appreciation of zombie for the characters is the norm. From what I've read people enjoyed it for the comedy primarily, and the characters second. And I recall you saying before that you thought them changing things in the source was bad when you were talking about Yami to Boushi. Not you're saying they should have completely changed the drama?

Madhouse doesn't have to worry about making money as much as other studios do because they are funded from a parent company. You may have noticed that Madhouse makes the least number of "pandering" anime. Still, DEEN manages to turn out more second and third seasons than any other studio even for shows that didn't sell extremely well for no other reason than they finish what they start and the fans enjoyed it.

Most of the best works from DEEN, Madhouse, and the like don't sell well. So they can't just make great works and those great works alone, because they would go bankrupt. So along with their better works, they make things like F/SN which made them a ton of profit, in spite of being a terrible adaptation as you say. Even UBW made a lot of money.
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Old 2011-04-13, 23:50   Link #111
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
The main point for a studio is to make a relatively interesting show so they can -rack money with DVD/BD- sales. The fact that studios in general do not release masterpiece like candies doesn't mean they can slack like they are doing for the past 2-3 years. (I wish I still had umineko DVD/BD sales, it was so sad that it was an obvious unprofitable venture for them, not like they didn't see it coming with what they did).
As mentioned before, it isn't true for every studio. If you have a stake in the show, you can rack up money through DVD sales. If you don't, it's merely contract work for a fixed fee.

What DEEN offers to the industry is the ability to animate a large number of shows. On budget. On time. Their model doesn't bank directly on DVD sales, but rather dependability (on budget, on time, and hopefully with profit for the client) so that they can secure the next line of work.

This works because many financiers are mainly interested in using anime to promote for something else (manga, games, merchandise). Consequently, hiring a studio to produce a low-budget show by a specific time (i.e. the big coordinated push for a franchise; what they potentially make from DVDs is often pittance compared to what they could make from successful merchandising and readership expansion) can be more important to their plans than ensuring highest quality.

DEEN certainly didn't lose any money from the failure of Umineko since they never invested in the production (only thing lost is the potential chance to work on Season 2, but what's one series in the overall scheme of things? They'll have no trouble securing other work).

Quote:
You may have noticed that Madhouse makes the least number of "pandering" anime.
That's generally true of Madhouse. However, the truth is that they've also been blacklisted from doing things like moe anime (their president recently admitted that they'd like to do more, but the sponsors no longer asked them, presumably because of the bad reputation they had built up).

Quote:
Even UBW made a lot of money.
Made Geneon and the other sponsors a lot of money. Didn't make DEEN nothing, although it does prove to clients that they can coordinate the production of a movie (that also happened to be highly profitable), which might mean more business later.
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Old 2011-04-14, 00:10   Link #112
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XEBEC is I.G. Port's B studio, BTW.

The industry demands this kind of stuff, so certain studios will concentrate on delivering it. In the case of the above company, the more important projects (and original creations) go to Production I.G., while the low budget, unimportant stuff goes to XEBEC.

At any rate, the sponsors certainly have an idea of what they're getting when they plan the budget and hire a studio. Poor treatment of works like Higurashi doesn't stop at DEEN but also the clients who licensed the property and saw it as nothing more than an unimportant cash-in (visual novels are generally not respected in the industry, and they get the worst treatment. Light novels are one step up but still considered low tier entertainment).
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Old 2011-04-14, 04:21   Link #113
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@Sople, Deen are not terrible, but everything you point that they've made that's in any way good (like Tsuikohen) was made over 10 years ago. Nowadays they're unremarkable. They rarely put out turds like Gonzo so often did (ahem, Dragonaut...), but they don't put out hits either.

Also Xebec isn't too bad, they put out Break Blade which earns them some points in my book.
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Old 2011-04-14, 17:57   Link #114
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the more important projects (and original creations) go to Production I.G., while the low budget, unimportant stuff goes to XEBEC.
It's truly a shame this happened, considering that XEBEC were also able to produce good anime (Martian Successor Nadesico) It's really unfortunate how this hierarchy of having I.G. getting the actually meat and leaving Bee train and XEBEC with the scraps ended up making them sort of the butt of the jokes.
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Also Xebec isn't too bad, they put out Break Blade which earns them some points in my book.
Pretty sure that was Production I.G. just getting extra work from their secondary studios.
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Old 2011-04-14, 19:04   Link #115
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Remember, this is the Studio DEEN discussion thread, for Xebec discussion, we do have a thread for that.
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Old 2011-04-14, 21:09   Link #116
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@Sople, Deen are not terrible, but everything you point that they've made that's in any way good (like Tsuikohen) was made over 10 years ago..
I would call Simoun and MariMite more than just "in any way good". My main issue was people judging the studio based on a few works alone such as F/SN or When They Cry (on the grounds that they were their major works which is completely false) which seems to be the case.

More importantly is the fact that studios can't be inherently better or worse than others. Staff changes. Directors don't belong to any studio. They go all over the place. Budgets can vary by orders of magnitude. Everything is circumstantial. Smaller studios tend to be more consistent in their work, but is it the studios fault they were hired to do some generic adaptation with a small budget? If they needed the project to avoid going bankrupt then that's all there is to it. I think a lot of the studios that are able to pour more money into their own works were studios that had a big hit early on. It's a shame DEEN didn't have such a financial hit if that's the reason they have to stay with such a bad business model and they had some works that deserve it. All studios can produce great works when they actually want to. Look what happened when J.C. Staff picked up Aoi Hana because they liked the source. It just comes down to whether they have the cash on hand to back it up, and DEEN almost never does.
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Old 2011-04-15, 06:03   Link #117
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Originally Posted by sople View Post
I would call Simoun and MariMite more than just "in any way good". My main issue was people judging the studio based on a few works alone such as F/SN or When They Cry (on the grounds that they were their major works which is completely false) which seems to be the case.
I've never been a fan of either of those. Marimite is popular enough, but I don't know about Simoun.

The only seemingly objective criteria for Anime quality is the rating it gets on either Myanimelist or ANN. below 8.0 or so most anime is mediocre, and simoun get's 7.5 on ANN and 7.75 on MAL.
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Old 2011-04-15, 09:29   Link #118
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The only seemingly objective criteria for Anime quality is the rating it gets on either Myanimelist or ANN.
You can't be serious. I've been arguing with people that have been basing a studio's quality by the ratings they get on MAL and ANN?
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Old 2011-04-15, 09:49   Link #119
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Originally Posted by donquigleone View Post
I've never been a fan of either of those. Marimite is popular enough, but I don't know about Simoun.

The only seemingly objective criteria for Anime quality is the rating it gets on either Myanimelist or ANN. below 8.0 or so most anime is mediocre, and simoun get's 7.5 on ANN and 7.75 on MAL.
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You can't be serious. I've been arguing with people that have been basing a studio's quality by the ratings they get on MAL and ANN?
I agree, having a high rating on those sites just means that the show is popular among foreigners, but absolutely nothing about its quality.
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Old 2011-04-15, 11:07   Link #120
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I agree, having a high rating on those sites just means that the show is popular among foreigners, but absolutely nothing about its quality.
Isn't the quality in proportion to how many, and by how much, people will enjoy the work? So surely rating lists as a informal survey of a large number of people's opinions is a decent gauge of how much they enjoyed a series, and hence how good it is.

What other slightly objective approach can you use to even try to gauge quality? Individual opinion is not that useful as people will always disagree, and you can always find someone that enjoyed even turds like Dragonaut. The best you can do is to average a large number of people's opinions and try to derive a number from it.

I'm not saying rating lists are perfect, far from it. They often have an unfair bias against stuff that's older, for instance. But if you can suggest a better approach I'm all ears.

Rating lists give you some idea of what the popular consensus was (and you are more likely then not to be part of that consensus most of the time), and only 2 or 3 of Deen's shows have performed well by that standard. Those 2 or 3 also happen to be the ones most complimented anecdotally as well (higurashi and Maria sama ga miteru).
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