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Old 2011-04-15, 10:28   Link #1041
Dorfl
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Originally Posted by Fran~ View Post
The problem here is that this is a manga, a fictional work. So, the logic that we use in real life sports isn't necessarily accurate to be used in a fictional work.
Yes, we already established that.

Still, even in the context of manga, I think these boxers would be better off without Kamogawa. I'm surprised it's taken the manga that long to mention it... wait, I think Volg's trainer may have said something long ago.

Leaving Takamura aside, Kamogawa's 'strategy' of letting Ippo charge ahead and get wrecked is extremely dangerous and extremely bad for his boxer in the long term. If he can't think of anything else, isn't that because Kamogawa is unimaginative rather than because there's nothing else Ippo can do? So Kamogawa is underestimating his fighter's intelligence and putting his health at risk at the same time. Is that the mark of a good trainer? Especially one who ruined his own career through reckless stupidity?
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Old 2011-04-15, 13:53   Link #1042
Fran~
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First of all, i said that Kamogawa isn't the best trainer for Ippo, i've been saying for a long time that Ippo should look for Date. But, Ippo (and Takamura) are very close to Kamogawa. Once i heard something like "if it's working, don't touch it".

We don't know what is the limit to Ippo and Takamura under Kamogawa's training, but the fact is that Takamura is undefeated and Ippo only has one defeat. I sure want to see Ippo as a boxer fighting like a champion and not as a challenger. But Morikawa created him as an underdog, so, it's hard to analyze Ippo without that fact.

OTOH Takamura was a punk (a very special one though) and Morikawa created a situation where Kamogawa was crucial to Takamura's future. So, Morikawa based Ippo and Takamura's relationship with Kamogawa more in sentimental issues more than technical.

What if Ippo's and Takamura's trainers don't make a good relationship?, i bet that would affect their performance as boxers. Still... if this were real life, i would say that Ippo and Takamura need new trainers.
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Old 2011-04-15, 17:04   Link #1043
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"Once i heard something like "if it's working, don't touch it".
It's not working. Touch it!
Quote:
"The fact is that Takamura is undefeated and Ippo only has one defeat."
Takamura is undefeated no thanks to Kamogawa. Ippo's almost perfect track record is due not to Kamogawa but to his own natural resilience (which can't last forever) and the fact that he hasn't faced any opponents who can take full advantage of his many weaknesses yet. Sawamura came closest, but he got carried away. He lost to Date because he just couldn't keep soaking all that damage, which is what will happen when he does face someone that good. Either that or the person will run away easily all 12 rounds and Ippo will lose heavily on points.

This being a manga and all, things like "trust" and "faith" and "friendship" will always be prioritized over "sense" and "logic" and "health", so this is just my personal rant against the "Anything goes as long as it gets results" and "If the fighter is great then his trainer must be great too" mentalities.
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Old 2011-04-15, 19:27   Link #1044
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Ok... i get your point... now, how do you know that just because they change Kamogawa, they would get better results?... and what trainer do you think is appropriate?.
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Old 2011-04-16, 05:10   Link #1045
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just saw the latest chapter. Seems this might end up like the Pacquiao VS Margarito fight where Ippo will take his punches and give more back.
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Old 2011-04-16, 05:32   Link #1046
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Ok... i get your point... now, how do you know that just because they change Kamogawa, they would get better results?... and what trainer do you think is appropriate?.
There's no way to know for sure if they'd do better with someone else. I strongly believe they would, but I don't know for sure. Also I don't know the strengths and weakness of any of the other trainers in the manga.

That said, since Takamura has nothing left to learn, I'd send him to Hama in America so he can polish up and spar against bigger, better opponents. I'd give Ippo to whoever the most defensive-minded trainer is. He already has more than enough offense, now he needs to stop getting hit so darned much.
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Old 2011-04-16, 05:40   Link #1047
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To me, it's not so much Kamogawa's one-trick pony or questionable decisions that's the real problem. I find it a little bit annoying that Kamogawa is treated as this 'amazing world-class second and trainer.'

I personally always thought that Kamogawa almost always make foolish decisions. The artificial lengthening of Ippo's career by forcing him into fighting Asian champions, making Ippo linger around in the 'above Japan, but below the world' cloud that Vorg and Sendoh are actually making more progressive efforts in.

He's pushing Ippo slowly, almost too slowly it makes me wonder if he realises Ippo gets his career shaved so much that by the time he gets to the world stage, there's a risk he'd be shriveled bones and punch drunk.

His utter retardedness against Gedo, the other old guy, as well as Woli. Overconfidence, flabberghastedness, and failing to notice simple things, etc. It's easy to blame Ippo for being retarded on his side as well, but Kamogawa is responsible for the mindset, approach and mental fortitude of Ippo in his matches, both good and bad of it.

And then there was Takamura, whom he forced into horrible situations just because he was poor and yet was unwilling to let him flourish himself overseas with a better trainer.

The fact that in most Ippo matches, it's always Takamura who always had the foresight to see what actually happens and give the right advices more so than Kamogawa baffles me.

Yet these repetitive flaws are often handwaived and we're supposed to assume Kamogawa is an awesome and amazing trainer. And what does Morikawa do to reinforce that assumption for most parts?

Make the other trainers and seconds in this series lesser than him.

Frankly, I was sooooo dissapoint when Date's debut as a trainer had his prospects MASSIVE FAIL multiple times.
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Old 2011-04-16, 09:30   Link #1048
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Yes, I'm so glad you understand. I hate how Kamogawa is presented as being so great and wise and responsible for his charges' success, when the truth is they're successful despite his leadership. And he's been coaching for decades, what are his other successes? NOTHING.

Maybe if Kimura and Aoki had belonged to better gyms, they would have done better in their championship challenges. It's not like old man Kamogawa gives them the time of day anyway.
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Old 2011-04-16, 09:36   Link #1049
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It's not like old man Kamogawa gives them the time of day anyway.
Perhaps because their trainer is Tomoyuki Shinoda not Kamogawa
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Old 2011-04-16, 12:42   Link #1050
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Right, but if they're going to be trained by the second-string trainer, they might as well not even be there. Same goes for Itagaki, Kamogawa has barely spoken to him throughout the series.
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Old 2011-04-18, 05:32   Link #1051
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorfl View Post
It's not working. Touch it!
Takamura is undefeated no thanks to Kamogawa. Ippo's almost perfect track record is due not to Kamogawa but to his own natural resilience (which can't last forever)
Frankly, I'm surprised it's lasted as long as it did, what with all the punches he's taken through his career.
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Old 2011-04-18, 07:52   Link #1052
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Tsuyoshi, i'm agree with Dorfl... but, you're missing one point, Ippo is a fictional character, this manga is full of fiction. Ippo wouldn't be champion in any country with Kamogawa as his trainer, but Morikawa created a world where Kamogawa is almost a God, he is respected by the press, when a boxer insults him, everybody see that almost as a crime!. I re-watched some episodes the other day, when Ippo faced Vorg, and Morikawa teached him the gazelle punch and Yamaguchi praised "Kamogawa's scientific approach to Ippo's training"... i mean... WHAT!?.

Now... i do think that either Takamura or Date will train Ippo eventually, i believe that Takamura knows Ippo better than anyone else and he got some knowledge too. But, again, this is all about Morikawa's decision.
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Old 2011-04-18, 07:59   Link #1053
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fran~ View Post
Tsuyoshi, i'm agree with Dorfl... but, you're missing one point, Ippo is a fictional character, this manga is full of fiction. Ippo wouldn't be champion in any country with Kamogawa as his trainer, but Morikawa created a world where Kamogawa is almost a God, he is respected by the press, when a boxer insult him, everybody see that almost as a crime!.

Now... i do think that either Takamura or Date will train Ippo eventually, i believe that Takamura knows Ippo better than anyone else and he got some knowledge too. But, again, this is all about Morikawa's decision.
Yes, that's the only reason that Ippo made it this far. What I mean is that realistically speaking, Ippo's mental health couldn't have lasted as long as it did is all.

I'm in agreement as far as Date goes. In fact, I really do believe he ought to be the one training Ippo. Takamura not so much because he's the type who wants to fight rather than teach others. Takamura generally likes to take a piss out of everyone outside of the ring from the way I see it.
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Old 2011-04-20, 12:01   Link #1054
Fran~
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I read the chapter in 3 minutes... and nothing new happen yet.
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Old 2011-04-20, 13:16   Link #1055
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This shit really is slower than Bleach, if that's even possible.
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Old 2011-04-20, 13:17   Link #1056
ShiroiRyu
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Oh lol ...
Like Fran and neshru ...
But not 3 minutes for me ...
30 seconds, just to download the pages on the browser. XD
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Old 2011-04-21, 05:11   Link #1057
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I was honestly hoping that at least one punch would be thrown in this chapter. I was bitterly disappointed.
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Old 2011-04-25, 02:10   Link #1058
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just caught back up with ippo after not reading it for a few dozen chapters. As people have said, good lord this is starting to move slow. I was literally just clicking through pages as no one was saying anything of even remote importance for a lot of chapters. Ippo has been a pretty consistently awesome manga for 900 some chapters, so i'm not gonna get too blown up over a few shitty chapters.
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Old 2011-04-28, 11:27   Link #1059
Tsuyoshi
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Spoiler for My thoughts on this latest chapter:
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Old 2011-04-28, 11:36   Link #1060
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One word for the last chapter : LOL.
I'm sorry but hey ... XD
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