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Old 2011-04-15, 20:24   Link #421
Kameruka
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I hate to hear people say KyoAni is a factory of moeblob shows. KyoAni is more than just moeblob shows but people only know KyoAni from Lucky Star, Haruhi and K-ON! which is don't do justice to KyoAni reputation.
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Old 2011-04-16, 05:04   Link #422
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kameruka View Post
I hate to hear people say KyoAni is a factory of moeblob shows. KyoAni is more than just moeblob shows but people only know KyoAni from Lucky Star, Haruhi and K-ON! which is don't do justice to KyoAni reputation.
I really liked their animation work and choices before the first Haruhi (assistance with SoulTaker/Komugi, 2xFMP, and Air), despite being extremely critical today, and ask yourself, what have they been animating these last five years (Munto, Key, three 4-koma, and turned Haruhi into just moe).
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Old 2011-04-16, 20:46   Link #423
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Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
You know, I could actually see Full Metal Panic becoming more popular if Kyoto retuned Sousake and Kurz to fit the angsty pretty boy mold. But that would make the characters too similar to the ones in Gundam 00.
Yes, angsty pretty boys would help sales, but I fear that the changes needed to make FMP truely commercial succes would probably kill it artistically. Fumofu avoided problems by just sticking to comedy, but I think TSR is too dark and violent to attract many fans of more lighthearted drama and romantic comedies. Probably even those who would normally have loved the relationship between Chidori and Sousuke.

Chidori is another potential issue, while I really like this character, I am sure an agressive tsundere like her will attract a lot more hate than less independent and more submissive eyecandy like Lacus Clyne, CC or Sheryl Nome from rival mecha shows.

Another problem is the mecha itself, the arms slaves are practical real robot designs that serve the plot, where a more iconic or spectacular design could have attracted mecha fans in larger numbers.

Still it is an excellent anime. It must have been bitter for Kyoani to see more formulaic shows like Geass and Frontier rake in the sales.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
I really liked their animation work and choices before the first Haruhi (assistance with SoulTaker/Komugi, 2xFMP, and Air), despite being extremely critical today, and ask yourself, what have they been animating these last five years (Munto, Key, three 4-koma, and turned Haruhi into just moe).
Let's see, since 2006 they've animated the second and third most succesfull late night anime franchises, (each selling over 500,000 BD/DVD in total) and Clannad is probably somewhere in the top 10. Without the help of mecha or much fanservice. Just 'moe' doesn't really do them credit. While not everyone may like this direction or feel that the studio's quality has declined, they did become a lot more succesfull in where it matters. I guess a lot of other studios would happily sign up for this type of decline.
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Old 2011-04-16, 20:53   Link #424
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri View Post
Chidori is another potential issue, while I really like this character, I am sure an agressive tsundere like her will attract a lot more hate than less independent and more submissive eyecandy like Lacus Clyne, CC or Sheryl Nome from rival mecha shows.
Sheryl is submissive like Lacus and CC? Lol? And Chidori's only really aggressive to Sousuke when he does something stupid and if you've watched TSR you might've noticed the massive character development she had received.

Quote:
Another problem is the mecha itself, the arms slaves are practical real robot designs that serve the plot, where a more iconic or spectacular design could have attracted mecha fans in larger numbers.

Still it is an excellent anime. It must have been bitter for Kyoani to see more formulaic shows like Geass and Frontier rake in the sales.
You say this like KyoAni came up with Full Metal Panic and it isn't just simply an adaption of a popular light novel series.

Quote:
Let's see, since 2006 they've animated the second and third most succesfull late night anime franchises, (each selling over 500,000 BD/DVD in total) and Clannad is probably somewhere in the top 10. Without the help of mecha or much fanservice. Just 'moe' doesn't really do them credit. While not everyone may like this direction or feel that the studio's quality has declined, they did become a lot more succesfull in where it matters. I guess a lot of other studios would happily sign up for this type of decline.
Uh....

http://www.mania.com/aodvb/showthrea...00#post1922100
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Old 2011-04-16, 21:25   Link #425
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Originally Posted by Bri View Post
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Excellent points. Never thought about it that way.

While the general demographic has gone towards more lighthearted rom'com's, I disagree that they would be completely off-put by darker series (like TSR). Any avid anime viewer will have a broad spectrum of shows they like.

Personally, I dont mind all the JCStaff RomCom's and etc, that are out. I actually love them in contrast to the darker series that I've viewed (e.g. Monster, Black Lagoon, and TSR to an extent). Having a good balance keeps me sane :P

Bottom line; in terms of sales and competition, I unfortunately agree that FMP would have to sell abit of its "soul" to attract the wider audience (either through MORE extravagant mecha scenes or moe-comedy). But what separates the franchise is that has earned better positive reviews.
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Old 2011-04-16, 21:37   Link #426
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri View Post
Let's see, since 2006 they've animated the second and third most succesfull late night anime franchises, (each selling over 500,000 BD/DVD in total) and Clannad is probably somewhere in the top 10. Without the help of mecha or much fanservice. Just 'moe' doesn't really do them credit. While not everyone may like this direction or feel that the studio's quality has declined, they did become a lot more succesfull in where it matters. I guess a lot of other studios would happily sign up for this type of decline.
Not sure where you pulled that because I'm 99% sure, that Gundam SEED, Macross Frontier and Code Geass all pulled ahead of KyoAni's most successful title, K-on. And 500,000? Did you mistaken this for Neon Genesis Evangelion? Not even Bakemonogatari sold that much (around 78k if I recall) and that's the highest selling TV series. K-on and Haruhi sold around 40kish if I recall.
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Old 2011-04-16, 21:54   Link #427
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Originally Posted by acejem View Post
And 500,000? Did you mistaken this for Neon Genesis Evangelion? Not even Bakemonogatari sold that much (around 78k if I recall) and that's the highest selling TV series. K-on and Haruhi sold around 40kish if I recall.
That number you gave is per volume,there's 16 volumes if you include both seasons so there's over 500k blu-rays sold in total.

It's just that when talking about sales people like to mention avereage and not total,probably because if we used total 2 cour shows would have an unfair advantage over 1 cour shows,short OVAs and movie.
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Old 2011-04-16, 21:57   Link #428
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Originally Posted by totoum View Post
That number you gave is per volume,there's 16 volumes if you include both seasons so there's over 500k blu-rays sold in total.

It's just that when talking about sales people like to mention avereage and not total,probably because if we used total 2 cour shows would have an unfair advantage over 1 cour shows,short OVAs and movie.
Ah ok, that makes more sense. But you are definitely right that series should be compared by average per volume to make it a fair comparison.
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Old 2011-04-16, 21:59   Link #429
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Both Geass and Gundam 00 have outsold K-ON! and Haruhi as franchises. And whenever SHAFT get their asses into gear and get to work on the next Monogatari series after the prequel movie that will also easily outsell any KyoAni franchise. Heck I think Bake by itself it has outsold the 2 Haruhi series...
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Old 2011-04-16, 22:26   Link #430
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Code Geass was prime time television rather than late night if I recall correctly. Can't say about Gundam 00, but with that sort of name behind it I wouldn't put it past being prime time as well.
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Old 2011-04-17, 01:02   Link #431
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You have to remember though that most prime time anime make money in a different way than late night shows. Prime time shows like Gintama and Gundam can make money off advertising whereas for late night shows they often have to buy that slot in the first place and make money off dvd sales. (If you see a raw of a late night anime you'll see lots of advertising from the companies related to that anime)

First season of Code Geass was a late night show btw, the second was changed too primetime which imo probably had an effect on the show itself.
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Old 2011-04-17, 05:59   Link #432
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri View Post
Let's see, since 2006 they've animated the second and third most succesfull late night anime franchises, (each selling over 500,000 BD/DVD in total) and Clannad is probably somewhere in the top 10.
Let's see, KyoAni by sales (thanks for the link Westlo):

43,094   2009  K-ON!
41,038   2006  Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuuutsu
38,471   2010  K-ON!!
29,149   2007  Lucky Star
24,808   2007  Clannad
23,761   2005  Air
19,884   2008  Clannad ~After Story~
19,052   2009  Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuuutsu (2009)
18,399   2006  Kanon (2006)
14,641   2009  Suzumiya Haruhi-chan no Yuuutsu/Nyoro~n☆Churuya-san

Fumoffu and TSR did not even make it to 10k

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri View Post
Without the help of mecha or much fanservice. Just 'moe' doesn't really do them credit. While not everyone may like this direction or feel that the studio's quality has declined, they did become a lot more succesfull in where it matters. I guess a lot of other studios would happily sign up for this type of decline.
What I see are 4-koma moe, Key tear-jerking moe, and Yuki's moe shows. Or you want to tell me that any of the above is not just moe (minus maybe the first Haruhi and about 1/10th of Key episodes in which something happens that is not intending to show how cute the female cast).

Sorry, but that's what the studio can sell and its fanboys want to buy, just go and check the Haruhi and Key threads and see for yourself.
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Old 2011-04-17, 06:16   Link #433
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Is that list total sales of all volumes or average per volume?
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Old 2011-04-17, 09:14   Link #434
Bri
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Is that list total sales of all volumes or average per volume?
That's the averages per volume, if we compare late night anime franchise totals it's like this:

1)Code Geass (2 x 2 cour):
50,000 x 9 + 43,000 x 9 = 837,000
2)K-on (1 cour and 2 cour ):
43,000 x 7 S1+ 39,000 x 9 S2 = 652,000
3) Haruhi (2 cour + 1 movie):
41,000 x 8 S1 + 19,000 x 8 S2 + 33,000 BD Box + 132,000 movie = 645,000
4) Macross Frontier (2 cour +1 movie)
46,000 x 9 + 36,000 movie 1 (+ 152,000 game version of the movie) = 441,000/593,000
5) Bakemonogatari (1cour)
78,000 x 6 = 468,000

So Kyoani got the number 2 and 3 spots on the totals list.

Comments:
*numbers rounded to nearest thousand.
*counted Code Geass as late night due to its roots, Evangelion, Gundam, One Piece and Gintama are excluded
*Macross movie was sold with a PS3 demo through game retail channels as well. Orion excluded it, but I added it to the total.
*Haruhi's average numbers are misleading given both seasons only had a DVD release at first. BD-box sales were exceptional and could be added to volume averages as well but I've only included it once.
*Bakemonogatari's figures are somewhat unique as well as it sold high numbers of both DVD and BD. Only time will tell if a sequel primarily sold on BD will have similar numbers.
*Futher sequels: Macross movie 2 DVD/BD still to be released, K-on movie announced for end of 2011, a Code Geass project in the works.
*all data based on Animation DVD sales in Japan thread Animesuki.

Average numbers are usefull to gauge the relative performance of individual titles but numbers tend to skew towards OVA/movies. Total volumes in regard to franchises work similar but skew towards longer 2 or 4 cour titles.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
What I see are 4-koma moe, Key tear-jerking moe, and Yuki's moe shows. Or you want to tell me that any of the above is not just moe (minus maybe the first Haruhi and about 1/10th of Key episodes in which something happens that is not intending to show how cute the female cast).

Sorry, but that's what the studio can sell and its fanboys want to buy, just go and check the Haruhi and Key threads and see for yourself.
Well, Kyoani's 'moe' sells better then most of the competitions 'moe' so it's not just 'any' moe.

Last edited by Bri; 2011-04-17 at 18:59.
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Old 2011-04-18, 11:05   Link #435
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri View Post
Average numbers are usefull to gauge the relative performance of individual titles but numbers tend to skew towards OVA/movies. Total volumes in regard to franchises work similar but skew towards longer 2 or 4 cour titles.
That's why you only work off TV series when doing averages... and KyoAni would be #4 and #5 than behind Bake, Geass and Frontier. And Madoka is going to outsell Code Geass as well and give SHAFT the #1 and #2 late night shows by averages.

Quote:
*Bakemonogatari's figures are somewhat unique as well as it sold high numbers of both DVD and BD. Only time will tell if a sequel primarily sold on BD will have similar numbers.
Lol... does that really matter when it's BD sales by itself outsell the combined efforts of Code Geass DVD+BD and are only 3k off the first Gundam SEED series? Kizu movi will probably pull in the usual 130k for big otaku movies... or maybe hit 150k.
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Old 2011-04-18, 15:16   Link #436
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
There is a very long list of things Kyoto Animation has be involved in in terms on Animation. The ones we tend to talk about here are the ones they did completely (or mostly), but what about the rest of the anime they have had their hands in? The problem there would be I suppose anime that had like 15 studios animating them such as The Irresponsible Captain Tylor. Or 44 like Inuyasha. Can you tell which parts KyoAni animated?

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/ency...any.php?id=235
The Japanese wikipedia about Tylor doesn't list any members from KyoAni as episode directors, storyboards, animation directors, or key animators. I guess what they did was inbetweening. You don't need to consider they did anything.

KyoAni produced 33 episodes of Inuyasha. If you want to know which episodes they did, open http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%8A%...82.B9.E3.83.88, click 表示, and find 池田晶子.

By the way, I have to say ANN's staff listing policy is sick. Too many words for Painting: Digital Paint, Finish, Finish Animation, Cel Painting, Ink & Paint and Clean-Up Animation. Animation used as Animation Production, Key Animation and Inbetween Animation. KyoAni being Production for Inuyasha TV, special and movies. (I suppose it should be Production Cooperation or Animation Assistant.) I can't help but notice those at a glance.
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Old 2011-04-18, 17:31   Link #437
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Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
That's why you only work off TV series when doing averages... and KyoAni would be #4 and #5 than behind Bake, Geass and Frontier. And Madoka is going to outsell Code Geass as well and give SHAFT the #1 and #2 late night shows by averages.
Since I wasn't comparing TV-series but franchises, which include multiple seasons and movies, looking at TV-series averages alone doesn't make much sense. One also needs to look at volumes and sales totals. If you have read the post you may have noticed that.

Code Geass fared lot better compared to either Seed or Seed Destiny then you would expect from the averages. It's 18 volumes off set the lower average. Sometimes it pays off to look at the big picture.

50 episodes of
Seed Destiny: 13 x 68729 =893477
Code Geass: 9 x 45367 +9 x 42690 =792513
Seed: 13x 58589 =761657

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
Lol... does that really matter when it's BD sales by itself outsell the combined efforts of Code Geass DVD+BD and are only 3k off the first Gundam SEED series? Kizu movi will probably pull in the usual 130k for big otaku movies... or maybe hit 150k.
Yes, it does. It partly explains the high average number, most later BD releases of other anime only had marginal DVD-sales. Another factor is that Bakemonogatari was sold in 6 volumes instead of 7 like Angel Beats or K-on! did. Which lowers it's comparative end total. Don't get me wrong Bakemonogatari was extremly succesfull but I doubt any other title is going to reach those numbers any time soon. The sequel(s) will still have to prove themselves first before the franchise reaches the sales volumes of other top titles.
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Old 2011-04-18, 19:39   Link #438
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Don't get me wrong Bakemonogatari was extremly succesfull but I doubt any other title is going to reach those numbers any time soon.
Madoka Magica. It's most likely going to beat Bakemonogatari given pre-orders were long full + the fact it is the most discussed anime on 2ch beating the former holder Haruhi Suzumiya.
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Old 2011-04-18, 20:34   Link #439
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Well in order to better prepare myself for conversation in this thread I watched FMP: TSR.

Now I'm not using this as a place for reviewing that series, but I did like how it was done, and it was certainly a style that I have really yet to see in any other KyoAni work to date.

It certainly was very high quality and compares extremely favorably to some of the modern mechas even today (TV series). Though I'm not sure how far I am willing to give them accolades on this front considering that a lot of the mechas that companies like Sunrise make are two cours or more.

Regardless it was certainly darker (Though, not extremely so) than any other work they've done. The fact that it didn't sell all too well, combined with the fact that they have yet to do anything quite like this up to this point ever though, only serves to infuriate me more.

It just proves to me that they're looking for easy success, and seek to please only one type of fanbase.

My original points, save them never going outside their comfort zone, still stand pretty much.
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Old 2011-04-18, 21:26   Link #440
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Companies survive by making money. Most do so by creating a lot of stuff cheaply to get profits on the returns. KyoAni seems to go for high quality popular and survives on those profits instead of sacrificing quality for quantity. When they did attempt quantity the quality dipped slightly (2009), but not by a lot. Thus showing them and their content providers (one distribute content and provide funding) that KyoAni can expand a little bit on the number of projects done at one time...but not by a lot.

So instead of working on four anime (Clannad: After Story, Munto TV, K-On, Haruhi 2), 2 movies (Munto's film and the Haruhi movie), and two web series (Haruhi-chan, and Nyoro~), They are working on Nichijou, and the K-On movie. It is of course possible there is a second series in the works for Fall that we don't know about yet.
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