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Old 2011-04-17, 17:43   Link #13101
FatPianoBoy
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Americans are too lazy and "patriotic" to topple their government.
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Old 2011-04-17, 19:03   Link #13102
FDW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FatPianoBoy View Post
Americans are too lazy and "patriotic" to topple their government.
I'd say it's more an absurd level of belief in the social contract rather than any sense of laziness and patriotism being the reason why Americans haven't really revolted against their government en masse.
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Old 2011-04-17, 19:07   Link #13103
flying ^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FatPianoBoy View Post
Americans are too lazy and "patriotic" to topple their government.
wut...

they did a few months ago... they toppled to Democrat-led 111th congress and they'll do the same to the head of state in 2012
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Old 2011-04-17, 19:13   Link #13104
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Originally Posted by flying ^ View Post
wut...

they did a few months ago... they toppled to Democrat-led 111th congress and they'll do the same to the head of state in 2012
I think he means something more like that of the Russian Revolution.
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Old 2011-04-17, 19:28   Link #13105
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Originally Posted by FDW View Post
I think he means something more like that of the Russian Revolution.
why topple it that way?

it only needs fine tweaking and "restoration" (tea party is leading the way in the "restoration" part)

Last edited by flying ^; 2011-04-17 at 19:38.
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Old 2011-04-17, 20:32   Link #13106
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Originally Posted by flying ^ View Post
why topple it that way?

it only needs fine tweaking and "restoration" (tea party is leading the way in the "restoration" part)
is the tea party going to restore taxes to ronald regan level?
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Old 2011-04-17, 20:44   Link #13107
DonQuigleone
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I don't think the kind of policies the Tea Party advocates could fix America's deficit. America has to bite the bullet and raise taxes.

However it could be much worse. Ireland actually got bailed out by the IMF! It wasn't so long ago we were considered the wealthiest country in the world...
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Old 2011-04-17, 21:04   Link #13108
GundamFan0083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
I don't think the kind of policies the Tea Party advocates could fix America's deficit. America has to bite the bullet and raise taxes.

However it could be much worse. Ireland actually got bailed out by the IMF! It wasn't so long ago we were considered the wealthiest country in the world...
Those are the operative words.
If they (the politicians) raise taxes, they're going to bite the bullet in 2012, and they know it.

Government in the USA must be cut down in size, the Fed must be abolished, and our money has to go back to being specie money (whether backed by gold, food, oil, or clean water is immaterial, it just has to be backed by SOMETHING of value).
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Old 2011-04-17, 21:32   Link #13109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Those are the operative words.
If they (the politicians) raise taxes, they're going to bite the bullet in 2012, and they know it.

Government in the USA must be cut down in size, the Fed must be abolished, and our money has to go back to being specie money (whether backed by gold, food, oil, or clean water is immaterial, it just has to be backed by SOMETHING of value).
Backed by what of value?

The reason why the gold standard was abolished is because money flows faster than how fast gold is produced and shipped altogether. And with internet transactions today, money is going to flow faster.

The USD is backed by an already large and diverse asset basket. The problem is that the people who control the different assets in that basket are consolidating under congolmerates and corporations, allowing them to fix price and supply instead of letting the free market float everything by itself.

Also, the Tea Party is nothing but a huge party of drunks advocating short-term policy that is going to put money back into the hands of Big Corp. I don't see how they are doing any good for the world economy in the long-term.
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Old 2011-04-17, 22:01   Link #13110
GundamFan0083
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Backed by what of value?

The reason why the gold standard was abolished is because money flows faster than how fast gold is produced and shipped altogether. And with internet transactions today, money is going to flow faster.

The USD is backed by an already large and diverse asset basket. The problem is that the people who control the different assets in that basket are consolidating under congolmerates and corporations, allowing them to fix price and supply instead of letting the free market float everything by itself.

Also, the Tea Party is nothing but a huge party of drunks advocating short-term policy that is going to put money back into the hands of Big Corp. I don't see how they are doing any good for the world economy in the long-term.
No, the reason the world had to go off the gold standard in the early 20th Century was due to world war one.
Countries borrowed more money from the banking cartels than they could reasonably pay back in gold in order to finance their war efforts and the result was a complete collapse of the gold system used prior to 1917.
The fractional banking system is the primary reason for the constant inflationary and deflationary periods.
The flow argument is a red herring, since the fractional banking system isn't stopping the dollar from devaluing, nor the flow of dollars out of the country which results in a transfer of real wealth (i.e. foreign companies buying American assets like a fire sale at a retail store).
Just because gold is no longer being used doesn't mean that debts aren't causing the same transfer of wealth from one country to another.
That's the core of the problem in the first place, the flow needs to have a faucet put on it in the form of tariffs and internet taxes.

It's too complex to explain in a single post.
Here's part one of a video series that explains it best:



Considering that Obama admn., the establishment GOP, and the Dems bailed out the banks, the auto industry, and gave large corporations like GE a pass on income taxes over the last few years (without any measurable gain to the middle or lower income people in the US) I'd hardly blame a bunch of drunks (your term) for our current economic woes.

A gold standard (or some facimile) benefits the masses, rather than the rich, and the masses are starting to wise up to this.
Thus elitists from both sides of the spectrum are getting worked up into a tizzy at the idea that the banking system that's been in place since the 1500s might actually be in jeopardy.

I realize that the Tea Party scares the crap out of socialists and corporatists alike, but that's too bad.

Nancy Pelosi said it best, "the party's over."
We need to cut spending, shrink the size of government, and increase the buying power of Americans by returing to a specie money system, illegalizing fractional banking, and abolishing the current corporate version of "free trade", or else we're simply going to go broke.
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Old 2011-04-17, 22:13   Link #13111
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Personally if the Tea Party is rattling the cages of the "elitist" types as well as waking up the public (even though some of them would rather just sit and bitch about it, rather than stand up and be counted!) that's good enough for me!
Plus I have noticed too that the common person is starting to get fed up with "promises, promises" that don't come to fruitrition! It's high time we held them accountable for what they've promised! Problem is even when we vote them out, we're just exchanging one crook for another. 2012 should be interesting!
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Old 2011-04-17, 22:27   Link #13112
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
No, the reason the world had to go off the gold standard in the early 20th Century was due to world war one.
Countries borrowed more money from the banking cartels than they could reasonably pay back in gold in order to finance their war efforts and the result was a complete collapse of the gold system used prior to 1917.
The fractional banking system is the primary reason for the constant inflationary and deflationary periods.
The flow argument is a red herring, since the fractional banking system isn't stopping the dollar from devaluing, nor the flow of dollars out of the country which results in a transfer of real wealth (i.e. foreign companies buying American assets like a fire sale at a retail store).
Just because gold is no longer being used doesn't mean that debts aren't causing the same transfer of wealth from one country to another.
I wasn't talking about net transfer of wealth in and out of countries. I was talking about money flow between industrial sectors.

"Sector-orientation" would be a better world to describe the entire situation where a country has a currency which is devaluating (overspecialisation in a certain industrial sector, in US's case is banking and finance) - putting things back to the gold standard is entirely ridiculous because of how fast bills are being paid.

One more problem in many economies is the over-investment into fixed assets - sure they give higher gains in the future but there is no consistent flow of money back into the capital for variable expenditure.

To keep money at "market price" and keep it "floating to competition", one way is to peg the currency to a basket of international currencies and back it by a basket of major corporations and industries around the world. Another solution to the problem, is to returning to the days of bartering.

Quote:
Considering that Obama admn., the establishment GOP, and the Dems bailed out the banks, the auto industry, and gave large corporations like GE a pass on income taxes over the last few years (without any measurable gain to the middle or lower income people in the US) I'd hardly blame a bunch of drunks (your term) for our current economic woes.

A gold standard (or some facimile) benefits the masses, rather than the rich, and the masses are starting to wise up to this.
Thus elitists from both sides of the spectrum are getting worked up into a tizzy at the idea that the banking system that's been in place since the 1500s might actually be in jeopardy.

I realize that the Tea Party scares the crap out of socialists and corporatists alike, but that's too bad.
The Tea Party leaders have good intentions, but they are misrepresented by idiots and supported by victims of panic mongers, soccer moms (in British English they are called "cheap old tarts"), racists and nuts who are mostly factose intolerant.

Btw, the Tea Party is funded by Big Corp - courtesy of David Koch.

Quote:
That's the core of the problem in the first place, the flow needs to have a faucet put on it in the form of tariffs and internet taxes.

It's too complex to explain in a single post.
Here's part one of a video series that explains it best:



Nancy Pelosi said it best, "the party's over."
We need to cut spending, shrink the size of government, and increase the buying power of Americans by returing to a specie money system, illegalizing fractional banking, and abolishing the current corporate version of "free trade", or else we're simply going to go broke.
I think we are agreeing on the same thing. But I think Obama attempted the right thing by spending more to keep the economy afloat (but gave the money to the wrong people), because the economy is already near rock bottom, any sudden movement will result in gigantic crash that breaks everything.

The GOP and Dems have to work together, but sudden tax cuts aren't going to help anyone in the long run.

For the past 20 years the world has pretty much enjoyed US's innovation that encourages freedom of thought beyond what is taught in the classroom. I don't think anyone would like to see a "Corporate Century" where the right to think and exchange ideas is constantly being monitored by corrupt governments and ideas are repeatedly stolen for the image of a few.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2011-04-18, 00:16   Link #13113
GundamFan0083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
I wasn't talking about net transfer of wealth in and out of countries. I was talking about money flow between industrial sectors.

"Sector-orientation" would be a better world to describe the entire situation where a country has a currency which is devaluating (overspecialisation in a certain industrial sector, in US's case is banking and finance) - putting things back to the gold standard is entirely ridiculous because of how fast bills are being paid.
That depends on which gold standard/system you're talking about.
The pre-1914 system worked modestly well while the gold exchange of the 1947-1971 era was abysmal at best.

In fact there is a move by many macroeconomists towards the Special Drawing Right (SDR) monetary unit completely (or partially in some people's opinion) backed by gold (and/or silver, oil, and other precious commodities) exactly for transfer between industrial sectors.
Take Zeollick for example; he's head of the World Bank and he's calling for gold backed SDRs to replace the dollar as a world currency.
I should note that this has nothing to do with Tea Party groups or any "little-people" movements.
The call to return to a new gold backed system is being done by the "giants of industry."

Heck, even the Russians are making noise about gold as a reserve currency.

Quote:
One more problem in many economies is the over-investment into fixed assets - sure they give higher gains in the future but there is no consistent flow of money back into the capital for variable expenditure.

To keep money at "market price" and keep it "floating to competition", one way is to peg the currency to a basket of international currencies and back it by a basket of major corporations and industries around the world. Another solution to the problem, is to returning to the days of bartering.
The problem with that kind of system is that it's entirely based on Keynesian economic theory.Keynes theory was meant for a heavily industrialized society devoid of any environmental concerns.
The US is now a serivce based economy, with considerable necessary pollution restrictions (some unnecessary, but that's outside the scope here) and thus we don't have the industry to compensate for the constant tax hikes, credit/debt creation, and stratospheric inflationary periods that are required to stabilize the fiat money system Keynes suggested during the Great Depression of the 1930s.
When Keynes originally formulated his economic theories it was possible for a government to spend its way out of debt and then repay the debt via industrial production.
However, services cannot perform that function.
Now, the west could go on a massive reindustrialization campaign...that would get us out of this perpetual recession, but the environmental impact would be massive.

Quote:
The Tea Party leaders have good intentions, but they are misrepresented by idiots and supported by victims of panic mongers, soccer moms (in British English they are called "cheap old tarts"), racists and nuts who are mostly factose intolerant.

Btw, the Tea Party is funded by Big Corp - courtesy of David Koch.
All groups have nuts, racists, and bigots in them.
There are no exceptions to that.
Look at the Catholic church, or the Democratic party, or heck even the boy scouts of America.
There are always "bad apples" in every group.

However, we do agree that the Tea Party movement has been bought and payed for by the Koch brothers.
The simple fact that the Tea Party is now supporting Donald Trump is proof positive of that.
For the record here, I hate Trump professionally (I don't know him personally so I can't speak on that) on a level not fit to describe on this boards.
The most polite thing I can say about that man is that he's a corporatist-pig from the lowest level of hell.
Now in private, he might be sweet as a kitten, but I don't know him personally so I can't speak on that.

Quote:
I think we are agreeing on the same thing. But I think Obama attempted the right thing by spending more to keep the economy afloat (but gave the money to the wrong people), because the economy is already near rock bottom, any sudden movement will result in gigantic crash that breaks everything.

The GOP and Dems have to work together, but sudden tax cuts aren't going to help anyone in the long run.

For the past 20 years the world has pretty much enjoyed US's innovation that encourages freedom of thought beyond what is taught in the classroom. I don't think anyone would like to see a "Corporate Century" where the right to think and exchange ideas is constantly being monitored by corrupt governments and ideas are repeatedly stolen for the image of a few.
Here we agree completely.
Obama should have kept his promise...oh wait, he was lying...to the American people:




None of us wants a "Corporate Century" and to be completely honest I'm worried about the direction I see the Western countries going right now.
As the weeks pass the nonsense keeps growing (Libya, oil prices, TSA patdown of 6 year old, etc), but the move towards a police state seems to be growing exponentially in every sector of our society.
I hate to say it but the USA is starting to look like a watered down version of Benito's vision of a corporate controlled world Empire and Europe doesn't seem that far behind.
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Old 2011-04-18, 01:11   Link #13114
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Quote:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...y.html?hpid=z2

They ran against debt. They swore and swore again that they’d cut up the nation’s credit card.
But now the 87 freshmen House Republicans are facing intense pressure from administration officials and even some natural allies on why they should — indeed, why they must — vote to allow the federal government to go even deeper into debt.

there is a part of me that kinda wish these would vote against raising the debt ceiling. Just so i can do a " told you so" to their supporters when the whole system collapse.
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Old 2011-04-18, 01:22   Link #13115
Ithekro
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If the United States has the "Progressive" forms of government used in California...you might be able to so just that.

Or you could just Recall the politicians if you have no confidence in them.
(Plus Propositions...who doesn't want a string of 100 propositions from all states to the Federal level every November?)
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Old 2011-04-18, 06:05   Link #13116
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
The fractional banking system is the primary reason for the constant inflationary and deflationary periods.s it best:
The gold standard is unnecessary. For one thing Money is simply a means of exchange, it does need to hold any value in and of itself.

Furthermore you're wrong about the current system being the cause of constant inflation and deflation. Inflation and Deflation cycles are as old as money itself, in fact if anything it's better now then it's ever been (with a constant low of inflation of 2% for the last 20-30 years). See this graph. In fact in history Gold standards have not worked as precious metals do not hold as fixed a price as you imagine. Any large mineral find would immediately cause currencies to inflate. Not only that but Inflation is not all bad, low inflation means that's it's more profitable to spend then to hoard wealth, which is good to encourage, as it helps drive the economy.

In this respect the currency system has done quite well for the last 30 years. Not only that but the gold standard did not prevent the catastrophic deflation of the early 30s. Even the 1900-1914 era was quite poor, as the inflation rate swung wildly back and forth, even if it was never extreme.

Also shrinking the size of government would work, if people were willing to give up the welfare benefits they have, which not even Tea Partyers are willing to do. The problem with the US debt is only marginally government bureaucracy and government size. Yes it can be improved, yes it CAN be shrunk. But that is not enough, because US welfare obligations are too high, and noone (quite reasonably) are willing to give them up. So it's in Welfare where things need to be fixed. Welfare has to be tweaked (as noone would reelect a government that scrapped it) and it taxes will have to go up to pay for it.

Healthcare can become much more efficient by instituting Universal health Insurance. Consider this graph showing US healthcare costs to be double that of every other western nation! And the government provides about 40% of that through welfare, above every other country, but not achieving anywhere near the same amount of results as it's not universal!

Secondly the US will have to raise it's retirement age on Social Security. When Social security was originally implemented most people did not live past retirement age, so it was actually a net revenue source!

US military also used up large proportions of the budget, but not nearly as large as those two, not only that but those 2 are set to become much larger as the babyboomers start to reach retirement age on mass.
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Old 2011-04-18, 08:34   Link #13117
Irenicus
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Spoiler for gold standard rant:
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Old 2011-04-18, 08:37   Link #13118
Tsuyoshi
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To sum it up in a few words: gold standard is just another form of bartering. It can't work because the liquidity of gold isn't good enough to meet the speed of popular demand.
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Old 2011-04-18, 08:47   Link #13119
SaintessHeart
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Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
Spoiler for gold standard rant:
Why put it in a spoiler tag? It is hardly a rant and it makes sense.

The idea of money being tangible is so that people will trust and use it. Who wants to go back to the complexity of bartering anyway?

Besides, there isn't exactly a need to keep it really tangible. Just an illusion will do - like how people got the illusion of the service sector being wholly worth the credits it is given. In fact, part of it isn't worth anything at all because you can do it yourself.
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Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2011-04-18, 08:56   Link #13120
yezhanquan
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Just like what Robert Kiyosaki said in his "Rich Dad, Poor Dad".

Money is only a medium. It is created so that we don't have to waste time finding people for barter trades.
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