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Old 2011-04-16, 05:07   Link #1161
Father Hentai
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Originally Posted by SS13 View Post

- Regarding Alto's decision to stay - note that he wasn't given a reason as to why they leave. They contacted not everybody with information regarding Leon, so for Alto it really seems they just leave Frontier in order not to be in military... which is not a valid reason for him. As for his loss, well, I guess VF-25 REALLY is better.
I don't think that it is that important to know in detail why SMS abandons the fleet. In military command you don't get every detail of a mission. It depends on your rank and classification level.

I believe more that Alto did not read the notes because Sheryl came back to concious that moment and uhm. after their bla bla they made love > no time to read mails

Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Not that I agree with SS13's analysis of Sheryl, but actually,

Quote:
"They[my songs] are the only proof I existed!"
is a more accurate translation of the line.
Interesting, she sounds like Zak from FF VII.


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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
- Now, it is very interesting to hear from Alto that he has been running away and pretending to not notice some things. But which things is he talking about? A lot of people chose to interpret his words to be about the two girls, but when one does look at what the footage shows, it seems that he is rather talking about him running away from his feelings for his home and him now taking responsibility for himself in that particular way.

- And of course Sheryl shows up at the worst moment, so that she does not get the whole speech of his, but only the parts which indicate (somewhat) him caring so deeply about Ranka that he wants to fold-bomb her in the face, if necessary. Klans wonderfully interpretable remark of "Is this your love?" did certainly help Sheryl make the wrong interpretation.
Uhm. If I am correct she came to the time where he talks about the the current situation of the fleet and what he has to do when he faces Ranka as an enemey.

I also think that Sheryl did not understood it wrong but sees where Alto struggled the whole time > which leads back to the discussions why Alto was indecisive.
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Last edited by Father Hentai; 2011-04-16 at 05:34.
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Old 2011-04-16, 08:43   Link #1162
wisteria233
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@SS13

Quote:
"They[my songs] are the only proof I existed!"
Even a translation like that doesn't agree with your statement, heck I would say that nothing from the series agrees with your statement.

Its probably more accurate to point out that her selfish side of agreeing to take up Ranka's place is not because she wishes to become Basara or Minmei (after all she was happy just doing charity concerts which did nothing for her career), but because she wants to be remembered when she dies, and in her mind she only has her songs left as a tool to do that which is why she chooses to sing. At this point in time in Sheryl's mind she doesn't have anyone by her side, who really understands what she's going through. At this point in time whatever ego she had has been shot to death.

the selfless side of it was her wanting to provide some comfort for the citizens of Frontier. Because Frontier also doesn't have much time, just like her.

Episode 23

I almost forgot that according to her profile Sheryl knows how to cook. Looking back though its is quite easy to cut yourself with a knife accidentally no matter how good you are at cooking.
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Old 2011-04-16, 09:19   Link #1163
karice67
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Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
And how does doing the two final episodes back to back next week sound?
After thinking it over...I really like this idea. Though it does mean I have to get to that last commentary soon...orz

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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
I'm beginning to think that THORA's reputation for excellent translations is somewhat overstated. ^^
You have no idea.

IIRC, they just take some group's work and edit it: no idea how good at Japanese their checker/editor is. Then again, most of the misses have been a matter of interpretation (or not worth a mention), so it's possible that they just weren't fans enough to actually want to understand the series thorougly.

Quote:
I feel I must comment on this at least once: The new opening of the show has amazing quality. I did not like the original titles, but these ones... I very seldomly skip them when seeing those episodes.
It's Kawamori himself that you should praise for that.

Quote:
- Good table manners apparently weren't high on Graces schedule when teaching Sheryl. You can almost see Altos thought process of "I got to teach her to use chopsticks sometime soon". ^^
Perhaps Grace and Sheryl always ate Western style? You know how Japanese people always don't expect us Westerners to be able to use them ("Wow, you're good at using chopsticks!" etc...)

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Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
I believe more that Alto did not read the notes because Sheryl came back to concious that moment and uhm. after their bla bla they made love > no time to read mails
Yoshino apparently confirmed this in an interview, that Alto didn't have time to read it until later (Animedia Animage, Aug 2009).

Wish I could get confirmation from someone, because he had a few interesting things to say about the final episodes...
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Last edited by karice67; 2011-04-16 at 10:18.
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Old 2011-04-16, 09:41   Link #1164
magnuskn
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
After thinking it over...I really like this idea. Though it does mean I have to get to that last commentary soon...orz
Hm, it would be okay, since the two episodes go well together in a certain sense.

On another level, they are very distinct, however.

I'd like to hear more opinions on the matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
You have no idea.

IIRC, they just take some group's work and edit it: no idea how good at Japanese their checker/editor is. Then again, most of the misses have been a matter of interpretation (or not worth a mention), so it's possible that they just weren't fans enough to actually want to understand the series thorougly.
I may have to get the CentralAnime subs after all.

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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Perhaps Grace and Sheryl always ate Western style? You know how Japanese people always don't expect us Westerners to be able to use them ("Wow, you're good at using chopsticks!" etc...)
I guess that's what happened, but I just thought it too funny when Sheryl just speared that meatball ( or whatever ) with her chopsticks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Yoshino apparently confirmed this in an interview, that Alto didn't have time to read it until later (Animedia, Aug 2009).

Wish I could get confirmation from someone, because he had a few interesting things to say about the final episodes...
I'd like that, so someone get her that confirmation.
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Old 2011-04-16, 09:45   Link #1165
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
I'd like that, so someone get her that confirmation.
Back issues of Animedia aren't easy to find, even at Mandarake.
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Old 2011-04-16, 10:22   Link #1166
karice67
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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
Back issues of Animedia aren't easy to find, even at Mandarake.
I'm not surprised. I couldn't even find it on Yahoo Auctions. Was hoping someone somewhere had it, or had scanned it, but haven't had any luck, just archives from 2ch.

And I have no idea why I keep typing Animedia - it was Animage... orz I take it as a sign that I need sleep.
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Old 2011-04-16, 11:25   Link #1167
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And how does doing the two final episodes back to back next week sound?
After thinking it over...
Quote:
I really like this idea. Though it does mean I have to get to that last commentary soon...orz
NOT good. 24 and 25 are too different... and they deserve a week each, as MANY things happen there.


Quote:
Its probably more accurate to point out that her selfish side of agreeing to take up Ranka's place is not because she wishes to become Basara or Minmei
(after all she was happy just doing charity concerts which did nothing for her career), but because she wants to be remembered when she dies, and in her mind
she only has her songs left as a tool to do that which is why she chooses to sing.
Which is the point. Whether she considers herself Minmay or Basara is in the end irrelevant. Point is, SHE WANTS TO BE REMEMBERED, and Idol Singers aren't remembered, UNLESS their song make a BIG impact (like in war). Remember she asked Grace why Ranka can control the Vajra and she cannot?

And oh, charity concerts are not as dumb as youi think. They can build some basic popularity without really nagging at ego ("Carrot loves you", anyone?). And Sheryl's ego is not dead. She accepted she is not the super known idol anymore... and is ready to go to great lengths to salvage what she can. And Leon's offer is just right here.

Quote:
I don't think that it is that important to know in detail why SMS abandons the fleet. In military command you don't get every detail of a mission. It depends on your rank and classification level.
But here it is. For Alto, it looks like Wilder and Ozma desert, flee Frontier in time of utmost need. Note that they also stood under military oath since the emergency was declared - now they break it! And this just after Ranka essentially did the same! For Alto it really looks like total betrayal.


Quote:
- Good table manners apparently weren't high on Graces schedule when teaching Sheryl. You can almost see Altos thought process of "I got to teach her to use chopsticks sometime soon". ^^
Quote:
Perhaps Grace and Sheryl always ate Western style? You know how Japanese people always don't expect us Westerners to be able to use them ("Wow, you're good at using chopsticks!" etc...)
The are from Galaxy. Galay is Corrupt Corporate Paradise, which looks down on tradition and promotes "new style" in everything. I'm sure they forsake chopsticks long ago, along with not having implants.

As for status of Cyborgs, virtually everyone on Galaxy was one - in fact KITG manga states at some point they wanted top make implants mandatory (yes, alternate continuity, but still - and it's series canon they are "commonplace"). The point was that Brera's implant was specifically manipulated by Grace and allowedher to control him. As we are in ep 23 we get her ultimate plan - use Vajra to force everyone to have an implant like Breara has,and so control everybody - "death for resistance, slavery to supporters". So no, generally cyborgs are the norm, not the exception on Galaxy.

Quote:
- But, yeah, Sheryl is letting herself depend on Alto. It's not even that it seems a bad thing to do this at this time. Alto promised to be there for her and she is relying on him to be her strength. But I definitely can also see how he is torn up over that... he knows their time together is limited and it pains him. Deeply.
Well, Sheryl's previous problem partially stemmed from believing she can do everything on her own, thus NOT asking for help in time. I'd say she is not asking for too much help, given her situation.
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Old 2011-04-16, 12:09   Link #1168
wisteria233
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Originally Posted by SS13 View Post

Which is the point. Whether she considers herself Minmay or Basara is in the end irrelevant. Point is, SHE WANTS TO BE REMEMBERED, and Idol Singers aren't remembered, UNLESS their song make a BIG impact (like in war). Remember she asked Grace why Ranka can control the Vajra and she cannot?

And oh, charity concerts are not as dumb as youi think. They can build some basic popularity without really nagging at ego ("Carrot loves you", anyone?). And Sheryl's ego is not dead. She accepted she is not the super known idol anymore... and is ready to go to great lengths to salvage what she can. And Leon's offer is just right here.
Sheryl asked that question because Grace (who raised her ) was abandoning her for Ranka, that is why she wanted to know why Ranka had control over the Vajra and she couldn't because she was abandoned for it. That's all there is to it. Ego had little to do with that. Then that was when Grace dropped the bombshell.

At the same time I wonder where you come off saying that Sheryl's ego is still intact after episode 18, when she hit rock bottom. Especially when there is nothing to suggest that it is still there, but everything to suggest that it had died. I think its more that Sheryl wants a legacy to leave behind. And we do get some introspection on Sheryl's thoughts in the last episodes and they weren't on her ego but rather on the devastation that Frontier was going through. So again there is very little to support your claim, here.

She wants to be remembered but that it. That's a very human desire, especially for someone who has believes that they are all alone in the world. Also Ranka wasn't doing well in her career when she first went around singing "Ninjinn loves you", it never made her popular, she was still essentially a nobody back then (its more of a meta example if anything the song was popular to viewers watching the series, but it wasn't a popular song in series itself). People tend to like to leave things behind eg: memories, songs, children, because they want some proof that they once existed. And even then you have Sheryl's thoughts which center on loneliness and death, none of that suggests that ego is a part of what's going on. Thing about ego is that it has to be based on something for it to be there, and with Sheryl she just doesn't have anything to base it on.
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Old 2011-04-16, 15:01   Link #1169
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I can kind of see where SS13 is coming from here... back in episode 18 it was clear that the loss of her stardom hit Sheryl pretty hard. However I really don't get the impression her ego had much to do with the charity concerts she did. I think that had more to do with her finding a purpose for what was left of her life than it did with anything else.

While we're on that topic, this is a little late, but I'd like to respond to Swampstorm's response to my initial post on Sheryl

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtabby View Post
Regarding Magnus’ comments on Sheryl doing things for others rather than herself… I don’t want to cheapen what she’s doing because I think it’s very admirable, but I actually think she’s getting something out of it as well. She’s getting a purpose, and that’s something she desperately needs at this point in the story. I think Sheryl needed to sing in that shelter last episode just as much as the people in that shelter needed to hear her sing.
Every action carries an element of personal benefit. Even when you make a sacrifice, it's only because the end result is more important to you than whatever it is you're sacrificing. Your personal sense of satisfaction is still a benefit.

Heroism isn't so much about the virtuousness of an act as it is about the inspiration that we, as observers, decide to draw from it. Personally, the fact that Sheryl was dying held little influence on me when watching that scene - we'd known about that for two weeks prior. What really made that scene for me was the simple and earnest way in which Sheryl expressed the hopes and fears of the people around her in the shelter, as well as those fighting for them outside (without the demonstrating any abstract song powers or unnecessary flashiness). It felt very honest and very human, in a way that I'm yet to see replicated elsewhere.
Again, I'm not trying to cheapen what Sheryl did. In fact I think it's awesome that she's able to help others and find a purpose at the same time. Really a lot of the heroic characters I like wouldn't seem very heroic if I got too caught up in little details like that. I was merely pointing out the fact that I thought she really needed the hope that finding a purpose gave her just as much as the people she was singing to needed the hope she gave them.

I've got company over, so thoughts on Episode 23 will have to wait.
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Old 2011-04-16, 18:56   Link #1170
magnuskn
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Originally Posted by SS13 View Post
NOT good. 24 and 25 are too different... and they deserve a week each, as MANY things happen there.
Good point. I say we keep the schedule as is. The re-watch will be over too soon anyway, so let's at least draw it out to the length we originally wanted.

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Originally Posted by SS13 View Post
Well, Sheryl's previous problem partially stemmed from believing she can do everything on her own, thus NOT asking for help in time. I'd say she is not asking for too much help, given her situation.
I'm very much not saying that she is asking too much. Only that he situation is very painful for both Sheryl and Alto. They know that their time together is nearing an end and Sheryl still does not like drawing on other peoples strength.

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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
She wants to be remembered but that it. That's a very human desire, especially for someone who has believes that they are all alone in the world. [...] People tend to like to leave things behind eg: memories, songs, children, because they want some proof that they once existed. And even then you have Sheryl's thoughts which center on loneliness and death, none of that suggests that ego is a part of what's going on. Thing about ego is that it has to be based on something for it to be there, and with Sheryl she just doesn't have anything to base it on.
Not much I can add to this, so "+1".
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Old 2011-04-17, 02:43   Link #1171
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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post

She wants to be remembered but that it. That's a very human desire, especially for someone who has believes that they are all alone in the world. Also Ranka wasn't doing well in her career when she first went around singing "Ninjinn loves you", it never made her popular, she was still essentially a nobody back then (its more of a meta example if anything the song was popular to viewers watching the series, but it wasn't a popular song in series itself). People tend to like to leave things behind eg: memories, songs, children, because they want some proof that they once existed. And even then you have Sheryl's thoughts which center on loneliness and death, none of that suggests that ego is a part of what's going on. Thing about ego is that it has to be based on something for it to be there, and with Sheryl she just doesn't have anything to base it on.
Reminds me some speeches in Metal Gear Solid
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Old 2011-04-17, 05:03   Link #1172
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Only that he situation is very painful for both Sheryl and Alto. They know that their time together is nearing an end and Sheryl still does not like drawing on other peoples strength.
This IS painful. Especially if we compare this to Episode 5, where we see that Sheryl once has as much endurance as Alto - remember those times they chased a tram or a train? Back then, Sheryl could give Alto a run for his money, and he already had a pilot training on his side. Now she can barely walk. In fact the cooking incident most likely also stems from SheryL's illness - brain damage can easily result in unsteady movements.

On a side note, there is a neat (and disturbing) parallel between Sheryl's body deteriorating under Vajra infection, and Frontier deteriorating under constant Vajra attacks - in both cases the breaking point draws closer and closer.

Quote:
back in episode 18 it was clear that the loss of her stardom hit Sheryl pretty hard.
Yes, and she DID accept she is no longer a star... on the level "This is now". However, in all previous cases, when Sheryl lost something important, she always tried her best to get it back, why should it be different here? But You are right, first and foremost she wants to sing.

Here we again see difference between Sheryl and Ranka. Sheryl is entirely realistic - her stardom is lost, her only hope is to re-create, and that she tries. Ranka, by contrast, seems oblivious to real situation, thinking that she can single-handedly solve the war.
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Old 2011-04-17, 08:12   Link #1173
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Yes, and she DID accept she is no longer a star... on the level "This is now". However, in all previous cases, when Sheryl lost something important, she always tried her best to get it back, why should it be different here? But You are right, first and foremost she wants to sing.

The difference from those previous cases is that she's dying in this one. She doesn't have much time left, and she knows this. She doesn't have the time to stroke her now practically non-existent ego. She only has a few months to live.

That and she has some tact in that Frontier is going a bad situation right now and so she knows that its just in bad taste for her to do that during this time.

There was a change in narrative from the the beginning of the series, and the circumstances are very different that, that's why she won't try to try to regain her old popularity.
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Old 2011-04-18, 22:17   Link #1174
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I'm not entirely certain what to make of this episode due to potential translations issues. Has anyone got both the Central and Thora versions of the rooftop scene for comparison? (Also, does Alto seriously say that whatever they're drinking isn't alcoholic in the original Japanese? Going by how Sheryl reacted to the stuff it clearly was.)

While it's understandable for her to be thinking the way she is due to her mental state, I think Sheryl showed poor understanding of Alto when she suspected him of simply pitying her. This is Alto we're talking about. Since when does he pity others? It's not in his nature to give or accept pity.

I can imagine in the past viewers may have gotten a very negative impression of Alto from this episode. For a while it almost seems as if he really is just pitying Sheryl and that he really wants to be with Ranka... and prior to the rooftop scene it almost seems as if he might break his promise and go after her. Given the magnitude of the promise he made to Sheryl I can imagine that leaving a really bad impression. Thankfully later events recast the scene in a different light.
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Old 2011-04-18, 22:40   Link #1175
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^

I don't have Central's, but THORA's is pretty accurate for that scene, IMHO. The whole conversation is fairly ambiguous, especially if you think they're just talking about the two girls at that point (hint: they're not).

RC had a pretty good discussion about Alto for this episode, with some excellent contributions from AS members. Particularly recommend this one by musouka. (I wonder if she posted it here back when the episode aired...)

edit: ah, and the alcohol thing. "Even though you might say that's not alcohol" (literal).

edit2: and dunno if anyone has pointed it out before, but from 2059: Memories, Alto and Sheryl aren't living together. It's Sheryl's apartment and Alto's just visiting to prepare and have dinner with her. That's why the last thing she says in that scene is "You're not allowed to go home. Stay by my side (forever), ok?"
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Last edited by karice67; 2011-04-18 at 23:56.
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Old 2011-04-19, 02:21   Link #1176
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
edit2: and dunno if anyone has pointed it out before, but from 2059: Memories, Alto and Sheryl aren't living together. It's Sheryl's apartment and Alto's just visiting to prepare and have dinner with her. That's why the last thing she says in that scene is "You're not allowed to go home. Stay by my side (forever), ok?"
Oh, well, of course they had to clarify that aspect of the show, instead of what Altos decision was in the end.

Eh, they still are together. Although that is a downer, I had hoped that they'd have a few weeks living together at least. Of course after the end of the show they have years to do so...
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Old 2011-04-19, 03:01   Link #1177
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
^
edit2: and dunno if anyone has pointed it out before, but from 2059: Memories, Alto and Sheryl aren't living together. It's Sheryl's apartment and Alto's just visiting to prepare and have dinner with her. That's why the last thing she says in that scene is "You're not allowed to go home. Stay by my side (forever), ok?"
Oh this is new, no one clarified this before so everyone assumed they were living together.
Maybe because with the Macross Quarter gone (that's where Alto was living before, right?) and since Alto would refuse to live in the Saotome house everyone thought they moved to an apartment together.

Is it the same in the light novels? I suppose they needed to clarify this because I can't remember anything that implied they were living separately, I even remember a short story from the first visual collection that takes place when people needed to use those gas masks and Alto told Sheryl to stay in the house until he can arrive but she sneaked out, that sort of implied they were living together.
Well I guess Alto visited her frequently (and maybe stayed there some days?)
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Old 2011-04-19, 03:43   Link #1178
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Yeah, I am hugely disappointed with that "clarification".
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Old 2011-04-19, 03:51   Link #1179
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Uhm. Is the discrepancy between living together and being together a big topic to discuss? Alto has free shelter in the NUNS barracks as he is integrated into the NUNS structure.

They are not married and they are a couple for not too long.
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Old 2011-04-19, 03:56   Link #1180
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Eh, it was assumed that they lived together for a long time by the majority of people here. This new "clarification" is a disappointment, to say the least.
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