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Old 2011-04-16, 12:08   Link #22641
ErenselTheJester
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Pretty much. Those scenes, if I recall, arent really from any one person's perspective, and I think they keep the trait that "nothing in the conversation changes if you remove Kanon, anyway".

There are, however, a couple instances where that's not the case - for example, Rosa was presented as clearly acknowledging them both in EP2, outside the Chapel - but that's just sort of the author's ability to do whatever, because Battler doesn't see that and Rosa was probably recruited into a scheme by then. Same as the prison scenes in EP4.

Though, even if it's unnecessary, I think it's silly to think that Gensawajo was completely ignorant of Shkanon.
I see, that make sense. But, before I can consider myself a believer, I need physical evidence right from the gameboard. Narrative instances and patters are good, but they can only go so far if the author decides to become inconsistent and brings up the occasional contradiction. When that happens, everything just depends on personal intrepretation. I understand that Ryukishi is trying to be indirect with his answers, but all he really needs to do is just put lipstick in Kanon's room or breast cups in Shannon's purse. Anything that'll hint towards Shkannon, I'll be willing to accept, because at this point, I'm sick of all this wishy- washy business.
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Old 2011-04-16, 17:46   Link #22642
AuraTwilight
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Kanon is an illusion. This is rammed down our throats that it is literally undeniable. Either Shannon dresses up as him, or else he's just...not there and he's a wholly made up character like Erika.
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Old 2011-04-17, 16:38   Link #22643
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I always saw Kanon on the same level as Shannon.
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Old 2011-04-18, 09:30   Link #22644
ErenselTheJester
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Kanon is an illusion. This is rammed down our throats that it is literally undeniable. Either Shannon dresses up as him, or else he's just...not there and he's a wholly made up character like Erika.
Of course I know that, but Ryukishi has too many inconsistencies that are kind of hard to deny. I feel like everytime I'm led to the idea that he's an illusion, Ryukishi pops up something that says "Oh wait! There's a chance that he might be real!"
And I'm just left confused and arguing against myself.
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Old 2011-04-18, 14:39   Link #22645
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Well, by the end of Episode Seven, we know for a fact that he is not real. Of course he's going to be ambiguous about it before the answer is revealed.
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Old 2011-04-18, 21:04   Link #22646
ErenselTheJester
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But its too late in the game for that... Its already the eighth episode and, from what I heard, he still hasn't made a confirmation. Oh well, I guess I should just go with the flow and stop complaining.
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Old 2011-04-18, 21:29   Link #22647
LyricalAura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
But its too late in the game for that... Its already the eighth episode and, from what I heard, he still hasn't made a confirmation. Oh well, I guess I should just go with the flow and stop complaining.
Is this exchange from EP8 good enough?

Bern: "At the moment Shannon is killed, Kanon also goes missing for all eternity."
Lambda: "It would be unrefined to go into detail, but with Shannon dead, that's pretty much how it works out."

Granted, they're talking about Bern's logic puzzle, so I guess you can doubt whether it applies to the main board if you really want.
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Last edited by LyricalAura; 2011-04-18 at 21:46.
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Old 2011-04-18, 21:51   Link #22648
Frisko
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If I recall correctly in episode 6 Kanon said he had planned on quitting his job and leaving the island when Shannon did. Perhaps, Kanon went missing for all eternity, but Yoshiya didn't.
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Old 2011-04-19, 01:13   Link #22649
unsuspectingvisitor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
But its too late in the game for that... Its already the eighth episode and, from what I heard, he still hasn't made a confirmation. Oh well, I guess I should just go with the flow and stop complaining.
don't forget about the Knox's 10th it says it is forbidden for a character to disguise themselves as another without any clues.there's alot of clue about shkanon so it must be true.
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Old 2011-04-19, 03:28   Link #22650
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
If I recall correctly in episode 6 Kanon said he had planned on quitting his job and leaving the island when Shannon did. Perhaps, Kanon went missing for all eternity, but Yoshiya didn't.
He says he MUST, and that if Shannon marries George, his love with Jessica cannot be fulfilled. What good reason is there for this aside from the obvious implication?
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Old 2011-04-19, 20:42   Link #22651
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Also, to throw a bit more onto the flame, I only recently realized that the lyrics to the EP2 ED song, "Shirabe", contains the line "When one is to vanish, then two will vanish"

And I'm just like, "Really? Since way back then?" I'm surprised I missed it since I consider some of the various songs as one of the clearest windows into Beatrice's / Culprit-san's inner workings.
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Old 2011-04-19, 20:48   Link #22652
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That's neat! I just noticed that.
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Old 2011-04-19, 20:51   Link #22653
theacefrehley
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Also, to throw a bit more onto the flame, I only recently realized that the lyrics to the EP2 ED song, "Shirabe", contains the line "When one is to vanish, then two will vanish"

And I'm just like, "Really? Since way back then?" I'm surprised I missed it since I consider some of the various songs as one of the clearest windows into Beatrice's / Culprit-san's inner workings.
As a reader since EP1, I have to say that people already suspected this Shannon and Kanon thing since way back in EP2. However, since there was not much conclusive evidence then (or now, anyway), it was also suspected it was a red herring, or coincidences.
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Old 2011-04-20, 06:53   Link #22654
cmos
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Another portion of revelations from Ryu: http://yuzuru.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/...1298902311/739
Basically,
"People who weren't in love can't understand Umineko."
"Love is enough motive for a murder."
There goes your fake murder mystery.
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Old 2011-04-20, 08:12   Link #22655
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Yeah, I remember being in love. Young, restless, full of energy. Every day was like an eternal spring evening, full of warmth and tenderness.

Then this one time, my girlfriend went to Milan for a year of college, and I never called her or emailed. When she got back, we had a get-together party, and then I ritualistically slaughtered her entire extended family and burned her house down.

Ah, you never forget your first.
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Old 2011-04-20, 10:34   Link #22656
LyricalAura
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What Ryukishi actually said was: "Umineko is the story of 'how one girl, with love and madness, can reach the point of imagining that scale of an incident." So this hasn't changed anything, really.

On the other hand, the "no murders happened at all" theory was already explicitly denied in EP8. One of the goats tried it, and Will cut it down with Dine's 7th ("there must be a corpse"). I think Dlanor also referred to it as "hackneyed and boring, even if it satisfies Knox and all of Beatrice's closed rooms."
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Old 2011-04-20, 11:07   Link #22657
Renall
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
On the other hand, the "no murders happened at all" theory was already explicitly denied in EP8. One of the goats tried it, and Will cut it down with Dine's 7th ("there must be a corpse"). I think Dlanor also referred to it as "hackneyed and boring, even if it satisfies Knox and all of Beatrice's closed rooms."
That's really a whole lot of nothing, though. The explosion itself (as far as we can tell) is an act of murder, so regardless of whether anyone was killed prior to that incident, it can still be described as a "murder" with a theoretically solvable culprit.

I suppose one could also argue the reverse in theory, that the explosion was not a murder so long as everyone but Eva and Battler were dead before that incident happened. Doing so naturally requires one to allege that there were murders beforehand, obviously. In essence, the ep7 Tea Party is exactly this; so far as the narrative depicts or suggests, everyone but Eva (who survives) and Battler (who disappears) is explicitly killed. To that extent, the explosion would only be a cover-up of the evidence, as Kyrie suggests.

But if even one person died in the explosion, it's possible to worm your way out of the idea of pre-explosion murders and still claim that a murder happened, even if it was 13 freak heart attacks and one blown up death.
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Old 2011-04-20, 12:42   Link #22658
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Quote:
Basically,
"People who weren't in love can't understand Umineko."
"Love is enough motive for a murder."
There goes your fake murder mystery.
Hahahaha that doesn't mean jack shit.

I still like the troll-theory that everyone was having fun and then a lightning strike hit one of the buried bombs and caused everything to go off.
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Old 2011-04-21, 03:07   Link #22659
cronnoponno
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I'm not too familiar how bombs work, but is toying with a detonation switch not asking for an accident? If you rapidly turn on and off something, something is bound to happen. Especially seeing as it's connected to an old antique, I'm assuming that flipping the switch causes it to set something in the bomb which confirms it will explode. What if some sort of electrical discharge, or something stupid happened to screw it up? To add on to this, it was heavily raining and thundering that night, sure it's an underground base but...

This series has shown us that this family is just damn unlucky/lucky to have some of the most coincidental things happen. Everyone could have been actually having a great time, enjoying their family get-together, and then this happened.

Also, on the subject of love:

''Love is also an illusion, mutal love is the agreement of two never to wake up from the illusion''.

Also, to be funny and to pose a stupid theory without thought. Wouldn't it be funny if the delusion Battler saw of Kinzo was actually his corpse in the distance, being attached to strings like a french doll and made to point forward?

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Old 2011-04-21, 03:39   Link #22660
AuraTwilight
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On the subject of accidental discharge: Garden fertilizer contains a lot of nitrate, which is explosive. Add that there's a network of bombs and shit under the ground and a stray lightning strike...
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