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Old 2011-04-21, 10:06   Link #1201
Father Hentai
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
^
Then what do you think Alto was referring to when he said, in ep. 23, that "I may certainly have been running away all this time?"
This is a question with multiple possibilities of answer. And each answer would be correct.
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Old 2011-04-21, 10:18   Link #1202
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^
Then what do you think Alto was referring to when he said, in ep. 23, that "I may certainly have been running away all this time?"
That his inner feelings don't exactly match many of his actions. It's the same as with the comments by Yoshino and the seiyuu. Yoshino thinks that Alto is indecisive. The seiyuu think he is a terrible person to the two girls. Both don't match Altos actual actions.

In this case I think Alto is too critical of himself. Sure, he was running away from home and trying to find a new identity. But by the point of episode 23, he already had long become a protector and had long moved on from his state of the early episodes.

That doesn't mean that he cannot doubt himself or be thrown by Yasaburos accusations or discover new facets of life and his own personality... but saying "he just got to this point in episode 23" seems vastly false to me.
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Old 2011-04-21, 11:11   Link #1203
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That doesn't mean that he cannot doubt himself or be thrown by Yasaburos accusations or discover new facets of life and his own personality... but saying "he just got to this point in episode 23" seems vastly false to me.
Even though he (Alto) is saying it himself? I am just reasking because episode 23 is where I thought he is free of any doubts and I had more the impression that he is being straightforward with everything.
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Old 2011-04-21, 11:30   Link #1204
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
That his inner feelings don't exactly match many of his actions. It's the same as with the comments by Yoshino and the seiyuu. Yoshino thinks that Alto is indecisive. The seiyuu think he is a terrible person to the two girls. Both don't match Altos actual actions.

In this case I think Alto is too critical of himself. Sure, he was running away from home and trying to find a new identity. But by the point of episode 23, he already had long become a protector and had long moved on from his state of the early episodes.

That doesn't mean that he cannot doubt himself or be thrown by Yasaburos accusations or discover new facets of life and his own personality... but saying "he just got to this point in episode 23" seems vastly false to me.
But it not as though anyone of us are saying that Alto wasn't trying to the point in episode 23, only that he himself realized and acknowledged it at in episode 23. It is still true that Alto was running away and was using Ranka as a means of doing so, and that can make him seem like a terrible person to other people (he basically admits as such in episode 23). Alto refused to actually face his problems or even acknowledge them to himself (though it was obvious to everyone else). I think that when you're view isn't just ignoring what Yasaburo said to Alto but also Michael's words as well, both are the ones who actually know Alto is. Even though Alto says that he hates Kabuki and he hates acting his actions show that he doesn't really have anything against it.

You can be indecisive and still act, which is what Alto was doing.
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Old 2011-04-21, 11:42   Link #1205
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But it not as though anyone of us are saying that Alto wasn't trying to the point in episode 23, only that he himself realized and acknowledged it at in episode 23. It is still true that Alto was running away and was using Ranka as a means of doing so, and that can make him seem like a terrible person to other people (he basically admits as such in episode 23). Alto refused to actually face his problems or even acknowledge them to himself (though it was obvious to everyone else). I think that when you're view isn't just ignoring what Yasaburo said to Alto but also Michael's words as well, both are the ones who actually know Alto is. Even though Alto says that he hates Kabuki and he hates acting his actions show that he doesn't really have anything against it.

You can be indecisive and still act, which is what Alto was doing.
I just disagree with the notion that Alto was acting indecisively.That he wasn't taking a concious decision for some things isn't even a question for me, but it seems strange that everybody from outside is throwing the "indecisive" label at him, when he seems to be doing just fine. It certainly seems as if they had some preconceived notions about him, probably from the time before the series began, so that is the template they are still applying to him in the end.

In regards to the girls, there are two ways to read Altos inaction until late in the series. One can say that he cannot decide, but that seems like the false point of view to me. A much more likely scenario seems to be that he doesn't want to hurt the other girl by deciding. That he kept on doing that a bit overlong is as much a result of circumstances ( Sheryl and Alto getting serially interrupted when they had a "moment" ) as Alto keeping up his pretense to not notice the girls feelings.

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Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
Even though he (Alto) is saying it himself? I am just reasking because episode 23 is where I thought he is free of any doubts and I had more the impression that he is being straightforward with everything.
As I said above, his feelings about himself don't exactly match his actions. You can be a person who constantly does decisive things but still be plagued by self-doubt.
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Old 2011-04-21, 13:19   Link #1206
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I just disagree with the notion that Alto was acting indecisively.That he wasn't taking a concious decision for some things isn't even a question for me, but it seems strange that everybody from outside is throwing the "indecisive" label at him, when he seems to be doing just fine. It certainly seems as if they had some preconceived notions about him, probably from the time before the series began, so that is the template they are still applying to him in the end.

In regards to the girls, there are two ways to read Altos inaction until late in the series. One can say that he cannot decide, but that seems like the false point of view to me. A much more likely scenario seems to be that he doesn't want to hurt the other girl by deciding. That he kept on doing that a bit overlong is as much a result of circumstances ( Sheryl and Alto getting serially interrupted when they had a "moment" ) as Alto keeping up his pretense to not notice the girls feelings.
That is why I said you can perform an action while still being indecisive as to why you are doing it. Alto lying to himself, running away, making up excuses, even though it still bothers him is him being indecisive. For instance Alto is asked frequently why he became a pilot in the first place, a question which he doesn't find the answer to until episode 23.

Though I tend to separate romance from Alto's actual character development, mostly because his attraction to either girls had very little to do with how he developed as a character. Both girls helped him become who he was, they helped him not only find the real sky, but also they are the reason why he finally able to be decisive. Alto didn't protect Ranka because he was in love with her, he was just way too disinterested in that area for me to say that, and a lot of Alto's interaction with Sheryl is in the off screen waiting room, where it's implied that they are spending much more time together that we the audience get to see, we don't get to really see them start to become more attracted to each other romantically. We only get to see the big scenes between Sheryl and Alto but not the little ones, we know they talk to each other a lot but we the audience don't get to see much of it. Meanwhile with Ranka the same is never implied.

However when you look at the love triangle itself, then you do have to bring up Alto's interaction with both girls, what they mean to him, and the differences in that meaning. Because Alto seems to have become attracted to Sheryl due her personality which is similar to his own, except much more honest. We very well cannot say that Alto is attracted to Ranka's personality because he has never shown an interest in her romantically enough to say this, but that doesn't make her any less important to Alto's life and development.

We also cannot say that Alto isn't responding to either girl's feelings because he is doing so with Sheryl, in his actions, even if he doesn't say it out right.
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Old 2011-04-21, 13:32   Link #1207
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That is why I said you can perform an action while still being indecisive as to why you are doing it. Alto lying to himself, running away, making up excuses, even though it still bothers him is him being indecisive. For instance Alto is asked frequently why he became a pilot in the first place, a question which he doesn't find the answer to until episode 23.

Though I tend to separate romance from Alto's actual character development, mostly because his attraction to either girls had very little to do with how he developed as a character. Both girls helped him become who he was, they helped him not only find the real sky, but also they are the reason why he finally able to be decisive. Alto didn't protect Ranka because he was in love with her, he was just way too disinterested in that area for me to say that, and a lot of Alto's interaction with Sheryl is in the off screen waiting room, where it's implied that they are spending much more time together that we the audience get to see, we don't get to really see them start to become more attracted to each other romantically. We only get to see the big scenes between Sheryl and Alto but not the little ones, we know they talk to each other a lot but we the audience don't get to see much of it. Meanwhile with Ranka the same is never implied.

However when you look at the love triangle itself, then you do have to bring up Alto's interaction with both girls, what they mean to him, and the differences in that meaning. Because Alto seems to have become attracted to Sheryl due her personality which is similar to his own, except much more honest. We very well cannot say that Alto is attracted to Ranka's personality because he has never shown an interest in her romantically enough to say this, but that doesn't make her any less important to Alto's life and development.

We also cannot say that Alto isn't responding to either girl's feelings because he is doing so with Sheryl, in his actions, even if he doesn't say it out right.
We are clearly talking past each other at this point, since I've been mentioning several times now that I know that Alto has been feeling some indecision but has not acted that way and you are still trying to convince me that he is really indecisive, y'know. I'll let it rest, because this is going nowhere.
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Old 2011-04-21, 13:49   Link #1208
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We are clearly talking past each other at this point, since I've been mentioning several times now that I know that Alto has been feeling some indecision but has not acted that way and you are still trying to convince me that he is really indecisive, y'know. I'll let it rest, because this is going nowhere.
Well only the first paragraph was directed at you, the next two paragraphs were direct at Karice.

My only point is that Alto is indecisive, as he in a way cannot admit to himself nor does he ever answer exactly why he became a pilot until later on. Because in a way he doesn't know himself.
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Old 2011-04-21, 16:59   Link #1209
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Well only the first paragraph was directed at you, the next two paragraphs were direct at Karice.
I quite agree with what you said, actually. When I wrote 'triangle' I didn't mean it in terms of 'romance', just in terms of Alto's interactions with Sheryl and Ranka (i.e. his relationships with them, which as you say, are often not about developing the romantic front, at least to Alto).

Though I never denied that he wasn't attracted to at least one of them (and not so much the other...). It just isn't the whole story, which is what some (most?) of the discussions on AS seem to imply.


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This is a question with multiple possibilities of answer. And each answer would be correct.
You know...I'm fine with this. What musouka wrote back then happens to resonate with me the most, based on everything I've seen AND read. But I'm happy if you all have your own interpretations that make sense to you, if supported by the show/supporting materials, of course...

@magnus
FH and wisteria took up what I would have said, which is that it seems like you're ignoring what we are actually shown to make your analysis.

The criticism over using the word 'indecisive' is a fair one to make, because the staff and cast are typically referring to Alto prior to episode 22 (or perhaps 24) when they use "furafura". They're specifically referring to his actions vis-a-vis Ranka and Sheryl, and he is shown to be going 'back and forth' between them, which is what the word encapsulates in Japanese (which 'indecisive' doesn't). Based on what Alto did in 20, i.e. how he ignored Ranka's feelings ,which Michel had emphatically pointed out just minutes before, to ask her to sing, I actually feel that Nakamura's label of 'horrible' is somewhat valid. It was the right thing to do wrt protecting the fleet, and it showed how much more important that was to him than Ranka was. But it still doesn't cancel that fact that he didn't even stop to consider why she was upset, much less do anything about it.

I'm pretty certain this 'furafura' is no longer applied after 22/24 though, to be honest...it switched to something else as a result of the reaction to the so-called 'non-resolution'. Though I'll get to that at the end of the rewatch, if at all.

=====

Ah, and I kept forgetting.
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Oh, well, of course they had to clarify that aspect of the show, instead of what Altos decision was in the end.
Wouldn't a more pertinent question be: 'why did karice choose to translate this out of all the material she could have translated?'
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Old 2011-04-21, 18:11   Link #1210
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I guess I just wanted Sheryl to be as happy as possible during that time intervall. Also, it was nice to point out to Ranka fans that she was returning to a situtation where Sheryl and Alto already were living together.
You Mean the Fact
Spoiler for Again...:
means nothing?

Note though that Alto definitely spend a lot of time with Sheryl, given that other NUNS pilots tease him about it - and pilots are generally womanizers, so it must be over the ordinary...

In fact, this may give even more weight to AruSherry. Because if they were simply living together, it could very well be this happens simply because Sheryl is too ill to live on her own - some scenes in ep. 18 and 22 suggest that. But if she actually lives alone, and yet Alto stays in her appartment for a night, (and we can assume, repeatedly), then, well...


Quote:
In regards to the girls, there are two ways to read Altos inaction until late in the series. One can say that he cannot decide, but that seems like the false point of view to me. A much more likely scenario seems to be that he doesn't want to hurt the other girl by deciding. That he kept on doing that a bit overlong is as much a result of circumstances ( Sheryl and Alto getting serially interrupted when they had a "moment" ) as Alto keeping up his pretense to not notice the girls feelings.

And as I mentioned earlier, hurting Ranka's feeling is a bad idea with Vajra still around...


Quote:
Because Alto seems to have become attracted to Sheryl due her personality which is similar to his own, except much more honest. We very well cannot say that Alto is attracted to Ranka's personality because he has never shown an interest in her romantically enough to say this, but that doesn't make her any less important to Alto's life and development.
+1

Anyway, my summary of 23:

- Sheryl must have regained some popularity by that point, or also possible, never lost it completely in the first place. In any case she is a known to the military pilots. One can only guess what they think about Ranka...
- Ranka meanwhile, is at her "best" Damsel Scrappy (as its called) behaviour. Going out of cockpit at such moment is total idiocy.
One has to ask: can it be that part of Ranka's adjustment to the V-Infection was to reduce function of her brain? After all brain is the only organ affected by the toxin and Vajra's brain is very small, so something like this should be expected.
- The situation at Frontier is bad. The need to wear oxygen masks means the environment control is breaking down. Which means the ship is breaking down. Compare ep.5 again, where both Frontier and Sheryl were bristling with life, and we get a huge downer there.
- Leons is not just good at machinations, nor is he simply an usurper. He actually manages to get elected.
- Clan's reasons to join SMS are very diffuse, and definitely not better than Alto's.
- Frontier DOES learn, however. They are much better at detecting Vajra now than they were in the beginning.
- Sheryl, in full contrast to Ranka, can perfectly distinquish between her desires and reality. She desperately wants to live longer, especially now that she has Alto all for herself , but the lives of everybody at Frontier are at stake, so she basically sacrifices what little time she has to be a better weapon.
- Her charachter growth, but also her silent desperation become evident when she says they shouldn't have pity on her.
- She also realises perfectly she is being used - AND goes along with that. Partially because she truly wants to help all that people, something she couldn't do before, and partially because she desperately wants to leave a memory of herself. Though one might ask, does she consider herself a kind of sacrificial lamb?
- Alto's decision to kill Ranka if needed also shows he becomes more decisive than before, even if he is ultimately wrong here. Alto, unlike Sheryl, doesn't realise he is used
- Sheryl has no mercy for herself, but she definitely has some for Ranka, even though her current predicament is partially Ranka's fault. It must be at the point that Sheryl decides that after she dies, Alto should be happy with Ranka.
- Bilrer is not the only one wanting to use Vajra. Scientists are interested in them as well. Also, Bilrer's plan becomes more clear. However, it is clear Bilrer is used by Leon, not the other way around.
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Old 2011-04-21, 18:38   Link #1211
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@magnus
FH and wisteria took up what I would have said, which is that it seems like you're ignoring what we are actually shown to make your analysis.

The criticism over using the word 'indecisive' is a fair one to make, because the staff and cast are typically referring to Alto prior to episode 22 (or perhaps 24) when they use "furafura". They're specifically referring to his actions vis-a-vis Ranka and Sheryl, and he is shown to be going 'back and forth' between them, which is what the word encapsulates in Japanese (which 'indecisive' doesn't). Based on what Alto did in 20, i.e. how he ignored Ranka's feelings ,which Michel had emphatically pointed out just minutes before, to ask her to sing, I actually feel that Nakamura's label of 'horrible' is somewhat valid. It was the right thing to do wrt protecting the fleet, and it showed how much more important that was to him than Ranka was. But it still doesn't cancel that fact that he didn't even stop to consider why she was upset, much less do anything about it.

I'm pretty certain this 'furafura' is no longer applied after 22/24 though, to be honest...it switched to something else as a result of the reaction to the so-called 'non-resolution'. Though I'll get to that at the end of the rewatch, if at all.
Well, I wasn't talking about the triangle in specific, but more about the part of Altos actions which are not ( directly ) informed by his relationship with the two girls. Which is the part where Alto also gets tons of criticism in the show from his friends and family that he isn't being decisive... all while being a fricking combat pilot who risks his life daily in battles against an implacable enemy. Sure, he hasn't yet come to the concious conclusion that,yes, he indeed does love his home, which he before called a cage, but he is already acting in a way which proves that he does so. So I am somewhat miffed that he still gets shit for "not knowing his way".

The aspect with Sheryl and Ranka is different. I am still saying that Alto was quite aware of their feelings after the middle mark of the show ( how the hell couldn't he be after episode 15? ), but that his lack of a clear decision is not because he is wavering between the two of them, but because he doesn't want to hurt the "loser" and that he always seems to get interrupted when a moment of importance comes about in those relationships. Well, with Sheryl, mostly, because the wheel that is Ranka fell off in episode 17, when her chance to be alone with Alto evaporated into a session of not doing anything about her desires for an relationship.

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Ah, and I kept forgetting.
Wouldn't a more pertinent question be: 'why did karice choose to translate this out of all the material she could have translated?'
I can't blame you for translating an official statement. It is what it is.
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Old 2011-04-21, 18:44   Link #1212
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- Ranka meanwhile, is at her "best" Damsel Scrappy (as its called) behaviour. Going out of cockpit at such moment is total idiocy.
One has to ask: can it be that part of Ranka's adjustment to the V-Infection was to reduce function of her brain? After all brain is the only organ affected by the toxin and Vajra's brain is very small, so something like this should be expected.
Can you leave out such stupid comments? It does not help anybody here if you negate a character.

Going back to the point. It is idiotic but Ai-kun is the only link she has to the Vajra network without attracting several Vajras at once. Somehow she has to communicate with him. This could have been better shown but there are situations in life, where you act first and then think (e.g. what Alto does as well in some scenes).

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The aspect with Sheryl and Ranka is different. I am still saying that Alto was quite aware of their feelings after the middle mark of the show ( how the hell couldn't he be after episode 15? ), but that his lack of a clear decision is not because he is wavering between the two of them, but because he doesn't want to hurt the "loser" and that he always seems to get interrupted when a moment of importance comes about in those relationships. Well, with Sheryl, mostly, because the wheel that is Ranka fell off in episode 17, when her chance to be alone with Alto evaporated into a session of not doing anything about her desires for an relationship.
I think you are referring to the duett/duell in the hospital where Sheryl and Ranka were singing for Alto. I cant agree with your point of view because there is no hint shown before or after episode 15 that he does not want to hurt someone. It more looked like his interest was somewhere else but girls. No, I was not thinking of Bobby to avoid any confusions. Or that he has been overloaded with other information about the current situation that he had no time to think about relationships. But yeah, these are my points of view. You can disagree as well.
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Old 2011-04-22, 03:55   Link #1213
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I think you are referring to the duett/duell in the hospital where Sheryl and Ranka were singing for Alto. I cant agree with your point of view because there is no hint shown before or after episode 15 that he does not want to hurt someone. It more looked like his interest was somewhere else but girls. No, I was not thinking of Bobby to avoid any confusions. Or that he has been overloaded with other information about the current situation that he had no time to think about relationships. But yeah, these are my points of view. You can disagree as well.
Episode 12 is where, IMO, Alto recognizes that both girls are in love with him. In the intermission between 12 and 15 there is simply not enough time to do anything about it and starting with episode 16 is where my thoughts really begin to apply, until 21 when Ranka removes herself physically from the equation.
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Old 2011-04-22, 04:32   Link #1214
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You Mean the Fact
Spoiler for Again...:
means nothing?
Off-topic from what you were actually talking about, I know, but I'm still ambivalent about this scene... I like it how the anime left it in the grey-area, so to speak, because there are valid reasons for them to have restrained themselves...but I also like how incredibly cute the novel depiction was...

=====

@magnus
I guess that's where I disagree with you is on how to interpret Alto's character, because I feel that Michel and Yasaburo's comments (criticisms) go deeper than just the idea of making a decision about what he's fighting for. They apply to the identity that Alto was trying to project for himself, which is where the saying that he learnt from his father comes in. But we're had this discussion before, so peace until it comes up again in the final episode?

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I can't blame you for translating an official statement. It is what it is.
Ah, you sort of miss my point here. To put it in perspective, this piece of info. was just one tiny little square in a 100 page book, and it wasn't even in an interview...
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Old 2011-04-22, 04:38   Link #1215
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@magnus
I guess that's where I disagree with you is on how to interpret Alto's character, because I feel that Michel and Yasaburo's comments (criticisms) go deeper than just the idea of making a decision about what he's fighting for. They apply to the identity that Alto was trying to project for himself, which is where the saying that he learnt from his father comes in. But we're had this discussion before, so peace until it comes up again in the final episode?
Sure. I just don't see myself getting convinced that I am wrong here. What we see Alto doing is what we get... outside opinions on his behaviour are just that: opinions.

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Ah, you sort of miss my point here. To put it in perspective, this piece of info. was just one tiny little square in a 100 page book, and it wasn't even in an interview...
Well, you have to know your motivation yourself on why you chose to translate that specific information.
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Old 2011-04-22, 04:43   Link #1216
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Well, you have to know your motivation yourself on why you chose to translate that specific information.
Then please don't knock the creators for not clarifying things you want clarified - for all you know, they might have, somewhere
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Old 2011-04-22, 07:18   Link #1217
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Then please don't knock the creators for not clarifying things you want clarified - for all you know, they might have, somewhere
I got that feeling that you wanted to bait me into saying specific until you finally got an answer on which you could vent some frustration. Honestly, if you want to translate something which is averse to the SxA ship, then do so. But kindly leave me the hell out of your personal hang-ups.
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Old 2011-04-22, 08:16   Link #1218
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Can you leave out such stupid comments? It does not help anybody here if you negate a character.
Well, Ranka does behave like a 13-14 year old. This theory is as good a guess why as any other.
Of course, she could be simply oversheltered... but the fact that the 1 year difference in age with Sheryl result in such difference in behaviour is strange. Also, Ranka DID have time to zthink the plan through - but didn't

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Old 2011-04-22, 14:29   Link #1219
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Well, Ranka does behave like a 13-14 year old. This theory is as good a guess why as any other.
Of course, she could be simply oversheltered... but the fact that the 1 year difference in age with Sheryl result in such difference in behaviour is strange. Also, Ranka DID have time to zthink the plan through - but didn't
So? She is not Sheryl or Alto or someone else. She is Ranka and each character is driven by their own emotion or heart. This also includes to make mistakes.

And what I meant to leave out is comments like this:

Quote:
One has to ask: can it be that part of Ranka's adjustment to the V-Infection was to reduce function of her brain? After all brain is the only organ affected by the toxin and Vajra's brain is very small, so something like this should be expected.
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Born the same day as Satoshi Urushihara... Ill fated?
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Old 2011-04-22, 15:46   Link #1220
wisteria233
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@ Father Hentai

Technically a Scrappy is a character disliked amongst fans, and a damsel scrappy is a character that is frequently kidnapped or just generally put in a situation of being a damsel in distress, either by their own actions or otherwise and is disliked by the fans for it.
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