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Old 2011-04-24, 12:04   Link #1241
Father Hentai
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Which, to the best of his information at that time, were just trying to kill all humans. The comparison to WWII doesn't hold much water, since it was the Vajra who relentlessly attacked Frontier.

That the fanaticism displayed by the pilots from Frontier in this episode is not meant to be commendable is pretty clear, of course.
I doubt that he only knows that the Vajra are mindless human killing monsters. But telling such things would not have helped his goal to rule frontier. I think the comparison with WWII is not that bad because he has the charisma to fool the people and they serve him willingly due to the current status of frontier.

And not all of the army serve him fanatically. They just did not know the truth and they were too focused on defending Frontier.

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Sure. They get directions on how to play their characters, like every actor. That doesn't make them scholars on their motivations and inner desires. It differs from actor to actor, though, Yuichi Nakamura seemed to have a good handle on Alto, as did Aya Endo on Sheryl.
I am not saying that they have more knowledge than the writers but they have more inner sights than any other here in the forum or in this thread.
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Old 2011-04-24, 12:11   Link #1242
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Originally Posted by Darthtabby View Post
Is Alto seriously the only guy who noticed that Galaxy warship slipping away from the Frontier fleet? Though I guess it was a decent way to give him a hint that something was out of place. Although maybe the streams of purple flak Giant Holographic Ranka was unleashing should have been a hint. Vajra weapons fire is yellow or orange, people!
I think he flew near enough to see through the decoy. It was just a hologram. It is interesting that all system were able to be fooled. Isn't there a discussion about the Hologram ability of Battle Galaxy?
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Old 2011-04-24, 12:50   Link #1243
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I know this is a bit late, but regarding Sheryl and Alto's living arrangements:
Sheryl's independence was a point of contention between the two during their talk in episode 22. Although Sheryl accepts Alto's emotional support, she doesn't really want to be "looked after" by him. With that point in mind, karice's revelation does seem unremarkable (retrospectively speaking, of course).

There's an element of this "tension" that plays out here in episode 24 as well. ("Tension" is perhaps not the right word, but I use it here to mean being torn between two states of mind.)

Spoiler for aside, to magnus:
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Old 2011-04-24, 15:15   Link #1244
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You sure he wasn't just hiding it? I wouldn't put it past him to have been hiding other feelings during his conversation with Cathy in Episode 11.
Hm, not really. It doesn't feel as if he was holding back that crucial information all that time. Especially since during episode 11 it would have, like really fricking important for him to tell Ranka about the Vajra on that planet, when she was departing.

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There was a blogger who argued that she probably did... his reasoning was that it would have been highly unusual for a songwriter to be allowed on set during the filming of a movie as she doesn't really have any business being there -her job is in post production. A family connection to the story would both give her a reason to want to be there and a possible reason why they'd let her be there.

At the time I wasn't sure if I entirely bought the theory, but it does make a certain amount of sense.
I am not really buying that. I think it pretty much is that Grace build a new identity for Sheryl, since I doubt that Sheryl had any ID on her when Grace picked her up. As such, Grace could have made up any background she liked for Sheryl.

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My question is whether it's more accurate than other translations. (I'm thinking in particular of one that was something along the lines of "Let's call off pretending to be lovers." Not that I think Sheryl meant that honestly, but I do wonder if that's more in line with what she was actually saying.)
It's a good question. THORA seems to have been somewhat more... liberal with their translations, rather than literal. Since it is kind of an important sentence, maybe someone who speaks Japanese can elucidate us on that particular phrase?

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Did you happen to take note of his callsign? Sagittarius One?
We had a big squee moment about it back then when the series aired. Y'know, between the worrying about the next episode.

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Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
I doubt that he only knows that the Vajra are mindless human killing monsters. But telling such things would not have helped his goal to rule frontier. I think the comparison with WWII is not that bad because he has the charisma to fool the people and they serve him willingly due to the current status of frontier.

And not all of the army serve him fanatically. They just did not know the truth and they were too focused on defending Frontier.
Well, I am not about to start the "Leon wasn't all that bad" brigade. I was just trying to convey that he was a bit different that then usual "Mwahaha destroy!" antagonist one tends to get.

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I am not saying that they have more knowledge than the writers but they have more inner sights than any other here in the forum or in this thread.
I do wonder sometimes. For them it's a job and they do and did move on for the most part. I really doubt that any of them wrote pages over pages of character analysis and discussion after they were done with their recordings.

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I know this is a bit late, but regarding Sheryl and Alto's living arrangements:
Sheryl's independence was a point of contention between the two during their talk in episode 22. Although Sheryl accepts Alto's emotional support, she doesn't really want to be "looked after" by him. With that point in mind, karice's revelation does seem unremarkable (retrospectively speaking, of course).

There's an element of this "tension" that plays out here in episode 24 as well. ("Tension" is perhaps not the right word, but I use it here to mean being torn between two states of mind.)

Spoiler for aside, to magnus:
Yeah, it's just a bit disappointing to be suddenly disillusioned about the long-time expectation that Sheryl and Alto were living together all that time. A bit of a downer, but hey, we know how it ended and that's what important, right?
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Old 2011-04-24, 17:10   Link #1245
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I do wonder sometimes. For them it's a job and they do and did move on for the most part. I really doubt that any of them wrote pages over pages of character analysis and discussion after they were done with their recordings.
So you want to compare time spend you/we made to analyse each single character vs. the time the seiyuus spend to train, record, repeat and review when the episodes were made? And not all seiyuus see it as a "job only".

I will drop this discussion here. If you think you have more knowledge of the character than the seiyuus, then so be it. I and some others share another opinion and we are fine with that.
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Old 2011-04-24, 17:12   Link #1246
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So you want to compare time spend you/we made to analyse each single character vs. the time the seiyuus spend to train, record, repeat and review when the episodes were made? And not all seiyuus see it as a "job only".

I will drop this discussion here. If you still think you are know the character better than the seiyuus, then so be it. I and some others share another opinion and we are fine with that.
I see other things in one particular character than some of them seem to do. It's okay if others have different opinions, that's what makes us diverse people.
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Old 2011-04-24, 17:15   Link #1247
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Yeah, but the problem is that reading your opinion is like you try to force your opinion over all. Which makes discussions/analysis some times difficult.
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Old 2011-04-24, 17:19   Link #1248
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Yeah, but the problem is that reading your opinion is like you try to force your opinion over all. Which makes discussions/analysis some times difficult.
What? Quite honestly, how the hell could I force my opinion over anybody else? I mean, I try to outreason people quite frequently, but I think I've made it abundantly clear that in this case it is just how I see Alto acting versus the opinions of a writer and some seiyuu ( and apparently quite a bit of people here ).

And, btw., your type of posting seems highly confrontational often enough, so please "pack Dich an der eigenen Nase" first.
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Old 2011-04-24, 17:40   Link #1249
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And, btw., your type of posting seems highly confrontational often enough, so please "pack Dich an der eigenen Nase" first.
Looking back at our confrontations since MF has been aired I take this as a compliment.
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Old 2011-04-24, 18:16   Link #1250
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Looking back at our confrontations since MF has been aired I take this as a compliment.
Well, apparently I too am known to be confrontational (learned it all from Tak ), so, yeah, it's a compliment allright.
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Old 2011-04-24, 18:34   Link #1251
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Speaking of Tak. These was his final words in our last MF confrontation:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak

Well, there is a way to make our relationship even better. For starters, you can buy me beer.

- Tak
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Old 2011-04-24, 19:10   Link #1252
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Speaking of Tak. These was his final words in our last MF confrontation:
Sounds like pretty universally a good idea, only that I don't drink beer.
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Old 2011-04-24, 21:24   Link #1253
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Worst episode cliffhanger... ever.
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Old 2011-04-25, 10:37   Link #1254
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Okay, Thoughts on 24:

- Correction to earlier: Sheryl DOES see herself as sacrificial lamb. She resigned to her fate and just wants that other have something from it.
- Somebody once said: "Despair is not weakness. It has its own power, in which one has to tap". We clearly see this here - Sheryl truly is Songstress of Despair, and yet this only magnifies her strength.
- She also doesn't hold any grudge against Ranka, at least visibly.
- Sheryl DOES compare herself to Basara: the "Listen to my Song" stunt is definitely a shout-out. Yes, the enrgy field had to hold, though maybe they just reduced artifficial gravity?
- The novel shows it clearly: Sheryl IS ready for the fact that after her death Alto will be with Ranka. And she prefers it to Alto being dead or unhappy. This again indicates her charachter greatness.
- Regarding the ego question: Sheryl's ego WAS always the opinion that the world depends on her singing -- remember "Hopes and Dreams"? That she fulfills this under such circumstances is tear-jerking. The irony of this in not lost on her.
- Well Alto WAS decisive here, or at least he wanted to say something... but Sheryl interrupted him.

- Ranka seemingly is manipulated through the harmonica. Which opens a frightening possibility that Macross Galaxy can manipulate thoughts just with remote objects, without implants.
- One has to wonder: was anybody on Battle Galaxy (the council?) or was it remote-controlled? If the Former, what was their role?
- And more important, what of Macross Galaxy?Is it indeed destroyed? Or is it still out there, biding for time?

- That Leon simply FORGOT about Grace is unforgivable. It was this foolishness that nearly cost everybody their lives.
- and nobody corrects him about it.
- The Holografic Ranka is a bit... dissatisfying. I DO understand they thought it was merely a projection and not a guise, but it HAD to beclearVajra wouldn't do that! WHY hasn't anyone noted other humans are at work?

- The hate spiral is shown very clearly here. People HATE vajra now, and there's nothing to change it on the fast.


mofre later...
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Old 2011-04-25, 11:07   Link #1255
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Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
Worst episode cliffhanger... ever.
You think this is bad? Imagine my feelings when I leaned that

(not to spoil any concrete details, but... )

Spoiler for Warning, light Movie Spoiler!:


At least here we get ep 25 to put everything right!
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Old 2011-04-25, 11:56   Link #1256
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Okay, Thoughts on 24:

- Correction to earlier: Sheryl DOES see herself as sacrificial lamb. She resigned to her fate and just wants that other have something from it.
- Somebody once said: "Despair is not weakness. It has its own power, in which one has to tap". We clearly see this here - Sheryl truly is Songstress of Despair, and yet this only magnifies her strength.
- She also doesn't hold any grudge against Ranka, at least visibly.
- Sheryl DOES compare herself to Basara: the "Listen to my Song" stunt is definitely a shout-out. Yes, the enrgy field had to hold, though maybe they just reduced artifficial gravity?
- The novel shows it clearly: Sheryl IS ready for the fact that after her death Alto will be with Ranka. And she prefers it to Alto being dead or unhappy. This again indicates her charachter greatness.
- Regarding the ego question: Sheryl's ego WAS always the opinion that the world depends on her singing -- remember "Hopes and Dreams"? That she fulfills this under such circumstances is tear-jerking. The irony of this in not lost on her.
- Well Alto WAS decisive here, or at least he wanted to say something... but Sheryl interrupted him.

- Ranka seemingly is manipulated through the harmonica. Which opens a frightening possibility that Macross Galaxy can manipulate thoughts just with remote objects, without implants.
- One has to wonder: was anybody on Battle Galaxy (the council?) or was it remote-controlled? If the Former, what was their role?
- And more important, what of Macross Galaxy?Is it indeed destroyed? Or is it still out there, biding for time?

- That Leon simply FORGOT about Grace is unforgivable. It was this foolishness that nearly cost everybody their lives.
- and nobody corrects him about it.
- The Holografic Ranka is a bit... dissatisfying. I DO understand they thought it was merely a projection and not a guise, but it HAD to beclearVajra wouldn't do that! WHY hasn't anyone noted other humans are at work?

- The hate spiral is shown very clearly here. People HATE vajra now, and there's nothing to change it on the fast.


mofre later...
- How does Sheryl see herself as Basara "Listen to My Song!" is what she always says before before performing Iteza, its on the Vocal Album.

- She was also joking about the "Hopes and Dreams" she was referring to her boobs you know.

- I think they can't tell that other humans were at work because they don't know much about the Vajra. The Vajra have fold crystals in their bodies so its possible that they can do something like that.

- Well Leon had no real reason to believe that Grace would show up again, cause when Frontier folded they did it without knowing what the destination.

- Everyone on Galaxy (except Sheryl) had implants which gave them a hive mind similar to the Vajra and made it so that they could be controlled. Its possible that they are controlling Galaxy but are just like robots instead of humans.
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Old 2011-04-25, 12:07   Link #1257
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- Everyone on Galaxy (except Sheryl) had implants which gave them a hive mind similar to the Vajra and made it so that they could be controlled. Its possible that they are controlling Galaxy but are just like robots instead of humans.
Everyone on Galaxy? Ouch.
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Old 2011-04-25, 14:10   Link #1258
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Everyone on Galaxy? Ouch.
It's somewhat muddled. In the "Kiss in the Galaxy" manga it is stated that Sheryl's Parents were killed because they opposed the law which would make implants mandatory. But this is movie continuity where Grace is little more than a wheel in Galaxy's conspiration. Here with Grace the Big Bad, it lloks like NOT everybody has implants.

Episode 5 in particular says implants are "common" on Galaxy. But not "mandatory". Sheryl in fact doesn't have any and this seems unusal, but not a special exception. Ozma also emarks that it would be impossible to force everyone to have implants... without the Vajra that is.


Quote:
- How does Sheryl see herself as Basara "Listen to My Song!" is what she always says before before performing Iteza, its on the Vocal Album.
QED. Sheryl copis basara's antics.

Quote:
- She was also joking about the "Hopes and Dreams" she was referring to her boobs you know.
But even to joke about this she had to feel this. She genuinely saw herself so, that't why Grace's speech and subsequent discovery of how everybody forgot her was so shocking.
Of course (regarding her motives) she doesn't want to get back popularity (which would dissolve again just as quickly). She want to leave a remambrance That's why she sang charity concerts (pepple who attend them are more prone to remember) and that's why the revelatiopn that she can make a difference in Vajra fight is so important to her.
The quote "Until I crash and burn, music is all I have" is quite telling.

Quote:
- I think they can't tell that other humans were at work because they don't know much about the Vajra. The Vajra have fold crystals in their bodies so its possible that they can do something like that.

Never before have Vajra demonstrated any tech usage. Leon HAD to understand that Grace, having defeated his killers, will follow with something and not just disappear. But then, Leon is not the cleverest.

Quote:
It's a wonder the Frontier fleet's casualties weren't much worse given the shots we're shown of them getting blasted by those beams. Also, where were all the
other ships and fighters during the previous battles?
Frontier DID learn. They have new ammunition and the pilots did get together. It also seems that Frontier was somewhat reinforced in the meantime. But yes, this is a trmendous improvement over first episode where they couldn't stop a single Victor Vajra
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Old 2011-04-25, 15:32   Link #1259
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- She was also joking about the "Hopes and Dreams" she was referring to her boobs you know.
Uhm, I would question this after seeing how Ai-kun slipped through the door and she yelled out that her slip is being stolen and after she dismantled the guard on Frontier. From marketing perspective she makes it is not a joke: sex sells. About her slip is a joke but I really doubt that Sheryl does not know how to use her gender for her purposes.
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Old 2011-04-25, 16:28   Link #1260
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It's somewhat muddled. In the "Kiss in the Galaxy" manga it is stated that Sheryl's Parents were killed because they opposed the law which would make implants mandatory. But this is movie continuity where Grace is little more than a wheel in Galaxy's conspiration. Here with Grace the Big Bad, it lloks like NOT everybody has implants.

Episode 5 in particular says implants are "common" on Galaxy. But not "mandatory". Sheryl in fact doesn't have any and this seems unusal, but not a special exception. Ozma also emarks that it would be impossible to force everyone to have implants... without the Vajra that is.
The real question how many living people without implants are still on Galaxy after they got attacked in the earlier episodes.



Quote:
QED. Sheryl copis basara's antics.
But it doesn't mean that she wants to be like him, its just a very famous quote.

Quote:
But even to joke about this she had to feel this. She genuinely saw herself so, that't why Grace's speech and subsequent discovery of how everybody forgot her was so shocking.
Of course (regarding her motives) she doesn't want to get back popularity (which would dissolve again just as quickly). She want to leave a remambrance That's why she sang charity concerts (pepple who attend them are more prone to remember) and that's why the revelatiopn that she can make a difference in Vajra fight is so important to her.
The quote "Until I crash and burn, music is all I have" is quite telling.
Which doesn't doesn't prove your point. It isn't ego its just being aware of your own body and sexuality. Those two things are different.


Quote:
Never before have Vajra demonstrated any tech usage. Leon HAD to understand that Grace, having defeated his killers, will follow with something and not just disappear. But then, Leon is not the cleverest.
Thing is the denizens of Frontier do not exactly all of the Vajras' capabilities, case in point they didn't know that the hologram was actually galaxy itself, they thought that it really was Ranka.

Quote:
Frontier DID learn. They have new ammunition and the pilots did get together. It also seems that Frontier was somewhat reinforced in the meantime. But yes, this is a trmendous improvement over first episode where they couldn't stop a single Victor Vajra
They did learn how to fight the Vajra but they didn't learn all of their capabilities case in point they still don't why Vajra are attracted to Ranka at that point. Also wasn't it stated that that particular Vajra was different, and it was also stated before that the Vajra evolve quickly and thus become immune to weapons wielded by the soldiers just a fast. It was stated many times before that the pilots don't know how long their current weapons and strategies will stay effective against the Vajra.
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