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Old 2011-04-21, 03:44   Link #22661
cronnoponno
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Eva and Battler were dispatched to check out the problem, after the epitaph problem was solved, for X reason, they worried that it was unstable, and only they were dispatched.

While they were investigating the potency of the bombs, either coincidence, or accidents caused by Eva/Battler triggered the bomb, Eva was too guilty to talk about her luck of surviving, and felt guilty over everyone's deaths. If there is a corpse, Kinzo's corpse, it shouldn't violate Van Dines corpse rule.

Judging Battler, he probably took it upon himself and acted solo.

Doesn't explain Maria though...but maybe Rosa went a little too far.

Eva, feeling guilty, ''compensated'' the families, which is why all related persons had a wealthy sum of cash given to them.

(Note I'm making this up as I go and not really enforcing it as a good theory. I will probably edit it like 20 times more before I'm done until someone contradicts me)
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Old 2011-04-21, 04:17   Link #22662
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Maria's jaw was just a stroke of luck. Eva solved the epitaph and happened to be out of harm's way by sheer luck. Seeing the detonator, she figured she must have set it off accidentally by entering and never told anyone. Battler, having gone looking for Eva when she vanished, was also out of harms way but left via a different means.

The compensation was Yasu, paying families for participating in her harmless and fun mystery game.
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Old 2011-04-21, 04:26   Link #22663
cronnoponno
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Perhaps this random bit of wild mass guessing will have no value, but from how I've read Umineko, the shots at mystery can be seen a bit like this:
There are two ways to view mystery, the first way of viewing it, is a heartless show that picks fun at corrupt people and ignores the heart, ignoring the 'whydunit' and such.
However, there is another way to view it. With love, with love, it is a different story, it's a world that involves a relationship with the reader and the writer, and it's a challenge of romance in getting them to solve their mystery, a battle of logic, and wonder.

You can't see Mystery with heart without love, without love, it cannot be seen. If you think about it, there are two ways to view most of the things put in Umineko.

Perhaps the truth in Umineko, is that a combination of these truths are correct, and we're just being shown the extreme's of the writers sides of the story. Some writers hint that there was a bunch of conspiracy going on in the family, some hint that they were really a caring family. It's also easy for the public to get bad impressions of rich kids and celebrities, no matter how good of people they are. Battler has said that Kinzo had been able to take a joke before(I read that on this thread). We can't believe the perspective of people who just assume Eva is the queen of conspiracy due to their lack of love, so can we really believe what they say about George?


Perhaps, while the family did have some dark sides to itself, this could have been over-exaggerated and they really did play in a harmless and fun mystery until fate simply said ''fuck you'' and screwed them over.

Maybe the Eva post-tragedy made herself play the part of a villain, like Yasu made herself play the part of Beatrice, in the pure shock of what she had experienced, feeling that simply surviving would have got her off the hook. (Haven't read episode 8 but I read this over discussion) We've supposedly shown that the trauma was so horrible for Battler that he lost all of his memories from the tragedy. If we view Eva from the love perspective, we could only pity her.
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Old 2011-04-24, 16:56   Link #22664
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I have only watched the Umineko anime but I'm interested do you guys know the true culprit of the murders or do you just have theories?
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Old 2011-04-24, 19:11   Link #22665
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I have only watched the Umineko anime but I'm interested do you guys know the true culprit of the murders or do you just have theories?
There's one scene that shows what might have happened, but other than that, it's pretty much just theories.
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Old 2011-04-24, 21:11   Link #22666
cronnoponno
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It's starting to seem like Ryu's main mystery to us wasn't ''who is the culprit'', there seems to be a hidden message in the entire tale that he wants us to figure out, correct me with logic from EP 8 if I'm wrong. But it has never been fully stated that this tale follows Van Dine's, or Knox's rules, however, Dlanor has said that it is okay to use it as a crutch for thinking, meaning that relying solely on the mystery aspect will not work, but still needs to be used partially.

I'm not sure if you guys agree that Kanon has a reliable point of view, but
Spoiler for Baseless theory:

Spoiler for Baseless and random thought out theory with little thought.:
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Old 2011-04-25, 00:55   Link #22667
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I...uh...what?

That makes no sense. I...I don't know where to start. For one thing, Erika being alive on the island is pretty much impossible due to Red and whatnot.

Witch Hunters don't think a witch did it, they're trying to uncover the truth of a human murderer (even if they're looking for 'an answer they want').
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Old 2011-04-25, 01:11   Link #22668
cronnoponno
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A good amount of red can be worked around in Umineko, can you give me the sentence in English which denies Erika's existence?

''There are only 17 people'', is extremely vague(even though it's a useful red truth still).

The bit of Kanon I posted, was to show that the characters were much nicer than portrayed, Yasu had good memories of everyone if that bit can be taken seriously, meaning they're at least more noble than the mystery argument seems(lying, bribing, ect). Well, I don't take it literally, but that seems like a bit of a hint.


And wait, weren't the cultists and ect trying to find more evidence of a magical story rather than the human story? I guess I must have witch hunters confused.

I'd be smart and say ''without love it can't be seen'', but that'd just be me pretending to know what I'm talking about. Most of what I typed up was just random thoughts that I thought out. Anyone's free to read it and contradict what I say, it takes 2 people at a minimum to create a universe after all.

What I'm trying to suggest, like, when Ange said kids bullied her into saying Kyrie and Rudolph were the culprits, it seemed that the Meta-World aspect of it was Bernkastel killing Ange after revealing the ''truth'' to her. Clearly an over-exaggeration. So why can't the other meta-world experiences be an over-exaggeration?

It would take a LARGE sentence of pure red just to leave NO room whatsoever for Erika to exist alive. After all(I read this on this site), in EP 8 Battler supposedly works around the red truth that Kinzo is dead from all starting games.
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Old 2011-04-25, 02:06   Link #22669
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Originally Posted by cronnoponno View Post
It would take a LARGE sentence of pure red just to leave NO room whatsoever for Erika to exist alive. After all(I read this on this site), in EP 8 Battler supposedly works around the red truth that Kinzo is dead from all starting games.
Since Battler's logic was effectively "this game board is a total fantasy, so don't get all bent out of shape if witches show up for the party," I don't think you want to try applying that to any of the other games.
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Old 2011-04-25, 02:09   Link #22670
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Since Battler's logic was effectively "this game board is a total fantasy, so don't get all bent out of shape if witches show up for the party," I don't think you want to try applying that to any of the other games.
Hm, well, I haven't read Ep 8 yet, so I guess that makes a serious problem in what I said. Alright ignore that part.

Still, if Ep 8 is Fantasy, am I right in saying that any red denying Erika wouldn't apply to the other game boards as well?
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Old 2011-04-25, 02:32   Link #22671
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EP8 isn't really Fantasy, exactly. And Erika's existence was denied in EP6, so it's irrelevant.
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Old 2011-04-25, 02:36   Link #22672
cronnoponno
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EP8 isn't really Fantasy, exactly. And Erika's existence was denied in EP6, so it's irrelevant.
I thought she was only presented with the theory of her death. I also thought the ''17 people'' part was talking about Kanon, not about her.

If they were talking about Erika, it was most likely just to confuse her and deny her existence. Since the scene was blasted by explosives, no evidence suggested she was alive, so she had no way to counter it.

It's basically like in the early stages of Umineko, where Battler keeps trying to deny witches, he used the same logic on Erika, where the theory was used as a weapon against her to kill her rather than a fact.

Just like Bernkastel showing that Lion would be shot by Kyrie.

I think that the red truth saying ''There are only 17 people'' related to Kanon(or someone of the Yasu-tree) and not to Erika, because I don't think saying Erika was dead would expose any of Beatrice's heart, it was made clear that saying that truth would compromise the secret of Beatrice, and Erika has nothing to do with that.

Unless you mean a different red truth.
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Old 2011-04-25, 02:52   Link #22673
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by cronnoponno View Post
Hm, well, I haven't read Ep 8 yet, so I guess that makes a serious problem in what I said. Alright ignore that part.

Still, if Ep 8 is Fantasy, am I right in saying that any red denying Erika wouldn't apply to the other game boards as well?
Erika did not exist on any of the game boards prior to EP5, nor did she have any influence on them. So as far as the mystery is concerned, the margin for the existence of "the human detective Erika" is limited to the EP5 and EP6 game boards only.

My reasoning for why she was denied for those two episodes is that she stated: I am the visitor, the eighteenth human on Rokkenjima! That's completely incompatible with a game board where there are only seventeen people, even if she's one of the seventeen. In order for the count to reach eighteen, Shannon and Kanon both have to be treated as "people", but we know that they're just two roles being played by one person. So we have:
  • Erika can only exist when characters count as separate people.
  • Characters are truly separate people to Erika.
  • Characters do not count as separate people to Battler.
So what kind of being does that make Erika, with respect to Battler...?
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Old 2011-04-25, 03:19   Link #22674
cronnoponno
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
[color=red]-
Spoiler for COMPLETELY disregard this if EP5+ wasn't written as a story.:




It's just impossible to argue against a red truth denying Erika's existence, because there is no proof of her existence. But that doesn't completely mean she never was alive on the actual island. The same applied to everyone else, no one can say that any of them were alive or dead before the explosion, why doesn't Erika fit into this category as well?

Nanjo
Jessica
George
Battler
Yasu
Genji
Kumasawa
Rosa
Rudolph
Kyrie
Maria
Krauss
Natsuhi
Eva
Hideyoshi
Gohda
?Kinzo?
?Erika?
?Kanon?

If Kinzo is dead, he doesn't count. If kanon is an Illusion, he doesn't count. If you add Erika, that makes 17 right?

I don't understand your post, I am not too observant when it comes down to it, I just can't see where the problem is.
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Old 2011-04-25, 03:38   Link #22675
LyricalAura
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Red truth doesn't exist in the real world, so if you step outside the confines of the games and into the actual cat box, then yes, Kinzo could have been alive and Erika could have washed up on the island.

But I can also claim that it's possible for space aliens to have shown up on Rokkenjima and caused the explosion, and I'd have about as much supporting evidence. "Erika fell off a boat on the day of the conference?" Where did you read that? ...Right. In the forgery.

Even if a girl named Furudo Erika existed and fell off a pleasure liner that day (what was a pleasure liner doing out in the middle of a typhoon?), she still would have had to miraculously drift ashore without drowning (from several miles away?). And assuming she survived that, she wouldn't even be anything like the Erika we know, because the Erika we know is an exaggerated metagaming psycho detective with magical powers.
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Old 2011-04-25, 08:12   Link #22676
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Witch Hunters don't think a witch did it, they're trying to uncover the truth of a human murderer (even if they're looking for 'an answer they want').
Oh, well, I imagine there's gotta be somebody out there who drank the Beatrice Kool-Aid and actually thinks a witch did it.
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Old 2011-04-25, 15:56   Link #22677
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Yea, but as a general group, I mean. He was of the impression that the majority were trying to find evidence in favor of a witch.
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Old 2011-04-25, 16:45   Link #22678
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Yea, but as a general group, I mean. He was of the impression that the majority were trying to find evidence in favor of a witch.
Honestly, if someone was trying to find actual evidence a supernatural thing caused the incident, I'd be pretty impressed in kind of a Ghostbusters sense.

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Old 2011-04-25, 16:48   Link #22679
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How come all the 'stories' are written without ange? I find it a bit odd that Yasu guessed correctly that Ange would be absent that day, unless she poisoned her food before the trip, or something.
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Old 2011-04-25, 18:37   Link #22680
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I recently realized a huge flaw with Shakanon. Namely, if Kanon is nothing more then a disguise and/or alternate personality for Yasu , then the other Fukuin servants would know his back story was a lie simply by virtue of the fact they had never met him before.


On a different note, one of the problems I always had with Lion/Yasu being the child of Kuwadorian-Beatrice was the fact that Rosa's flashback didn't show any indication that Beatrice had a child. However, I recently thought of an explanation. Beato was pregnant when she died. However, Nanjo was able to transfer her unborn child to a surrogate mother, for example Asumu or Kumasawa.
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