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Old 2011-04-24, 05:21   Link #341
Hagoshod
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
Except that the Walpurgisnacht has appeared in all timelines concurrent with Homura, i.e. Homura has always been present where Walpurgisnacht is, even in the very first timeline where Homura has yet become a Mahou Shoujo. Yet the Walpurgisnacht in the first timeline already has the gear motif, and looks pretty much identical across all the timelines.
That's because Walpurgisnacht's inherent nature defies the laws of time, just Homura does after becoming a Magical Girl. Homura made a contract with Kyubey to basically go back in time and stop herself from killing Madoka. That is the cruel irony of her wish. It was always her destiny to turn into Walpurgisnacht. No matter how hard she tries, Homura cannot beat her greatest opponent: Herself.

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Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
Also, Homura's time travel has been pretty consistent as a "conscience transfer" mechanism, rather than a physical item transfer.
A Soul Gem is a physical item, and logic states a Grief Seed can travel around just as easily.
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Old 2011-04-24, 05:33   Link #342
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Originally Posted by Hagoshod View Post
That's because Walpurgisnacht's inherent nature defies the laws of time, just Homura does after becoming a Magical Girl. Homura made a contract with Kyubey to basically go back in time and stop herself from killing Madoka. That is the cruel irony of her wish. It was always her destiny to turn into Walpurgisnacht.
BUT, if it was always her destiny to become Walpurgisnacht, then due to the mechanism of Madoka's wish, then Homura should very much not exist in the post-witch world at all. Madoka herself, who is pretty much fated to be the most powerful witch in the world, was utterly eliminated in all timelines, as a result erasing Madoka herself from all existence. And yet here we have Homura, still alive and kicking and the only one to clearly remember Madoka. I don't think Madoka's wish extended to "Homura is special", and hence no reason to assume that Homura is immune to whatever effects Madoka's "no-witches" reality would contain except for Homura maintaining Madoka's memory, which is attributed to a 'miracle'.

Also, I don't remember the "Walpurgisnacht defying the laws of time" part from anywhere.

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A Soul Gem is a physical item, and logic states a Grief Seed can travel around just as easily.
I can concede on the Soul Gem and Grief Seed part, but there's still a problem with this: it still assumes that Walpurgisnacht is a time-travelling entity, which it has shown no hints or indications of being such a thing.
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Old 2011-04-24, 07:12   Link #343
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Homura is not WN!

Stop it guys!

That would make her even more Godly than Madoka. If even Madoka disappeared from the physical after defeating her own witch self, Homura staying all fine and dandy after having her witch defeated each and even timeline does not make sense whatsoever!

Seriously!

Ever considered that she could not defeat WN because WN has a strong resistance to physical attacks? Homura only uses normal weapons while all it took for Madoka was a single arrow of magic!
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Old 2011-04-24, 09:36   Link #344
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Interesting that this response here was placed in a thread I've never posted in before...and interesting as well that Kaijo seems to have been banned anyway, so there might be no point to this. I'll assume that the ban wasn't permanent though, in which case Kaijo can feel free to read through and address this if he'd like to once he gets back.


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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Hindsight is 20/20. At the point in time where Homura was still thinking about this, she was still going off Madoka's plea to stop her from being tricked by Kyube(and the extension that Homura used, preventing Madoka from sacrificing herself). Working with the knowledge of the ending, is truly working on meta-knowledge... an accusation that was tossed around earlier.

Let me ask you a question: How exactly was Homura supposed to prevent Madoka from contracting (and thus sacrificing herself in Homura's eyes)? What do you think the best way to accomplish that would have been? Hang around Madoka forever, when Homura outright stated she would be gone after WN?
That Madoka would not likely just sit by and let Sayaka (or, depending on the strength of their relationship, Homura) become a witch or die is not 'meta-knowledge'. It's an obvious part of her personality. Homura's best bet was and will always have been to keep Madoka as far away from the Puella Magi system in the first place.

If you're asking me how Homura was supposed to prevent Madoka from sacrificing herself, my answer from a long time ago has been that that is obviously impossible. That of course goes against everything Homura was fighting for though, so the answer I've already suggested to you is "Timeline 4 seemed closest to working". Hell, if Homura hadn't looked like she was getting beat up so badly, she'd have succeeded on the 'don't let Madoka contract' front. Going for a repeat performance was more or less the right idea there (if Kyuubey and Homura's statements about 'countless timeloops' can be given any credit, between loops 4 and 5 is where I'd place them, on that note).

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What you see there is *one* outcome, and happened because she explained to everyone at once, and was still in her "socially-nervous" stage. The Homura we see now is more controlled, and is more than capable of making heart-felt pleas, as well as thinking calmly enough to find a better way to convince Madoka not to contract.

Homura ain't gonna be around forever, so wouldn't it be a kicker if Homura took off after WN, and Madoka contracted, thus "sacrificing" herself? Brilliant!
I'm not talking about 'one outcome' or shit. I'm talking about character. Mami and Sayaka don't trust Homura. They don't want to hear about MGs turning into witches. That's a given, that's final (or as close at it needs to be from Homura's perspective). Better not to involve them at all. The reasons this is true are all fundamental to their characters--I've already highlighted them in my previous post. Even if they had known, what're Mami and Sayaka gonna do: help Homura convince Madoka not to contract? They obviously had bigger problems than that (self-interest, hello?). Face this fact first: the other MGs are liabilities in Homura convincing Madoka not to contract, truth or no truth (minus, slightly, Kyouko). This much is should be clear.

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Half-assing it by tossing a cryptic warning at the window in a creepy manner.
Most successful timeline yet.

Quote:
We don't know that killing him once was what did it. That whole timeline is vague... and you ignore the very fact that it failed. Another Kyube did show up.

Even if I buy this explanation (which is yet another attempt to fill a plot hole left by the show), Homura didn't really explain the dangers. All they got out of her was that being a magical girl is bad, mmkay? Nothing about soul gems or becoming witches. The major concept that made Madoka speak her plea to Homura, was that MG's become witches.
Madoka pleaded with Homura once, about MGs fighting witches being dangerous. That was for Sayaka. No requests about Soul Gems or witches or anything. Homura clearly told us she botched it in letting Sayaka contract; without that, she'd already have won Timeline 5, since Madoka had been convinced firsthand of mortal danger. The soul gem or witch issues were never shown to be any sort of deterrent to Madoka for contracting. You just have to face it, dude.

Quote:
At that point, only Mami was involved. And Homura knows that Madoka is a self-sacrificing type, so how logical was it to try and tell Madoka not to be herself? Without any real explanation as to WHY she should?
How is explaining things any more logical a way to stop Madoka from being herself, dude? Doesn't informing Madoka of the situation actually give her more room to respond to it as herself, even? If Homura knows that Madoka's natural inclination will always be to sacrifice herself (she even complains about this, loudly, for your remembrance) then her obvious aim should be to prevent Madoka from knowing she has anything to sacrifice herself for in the first place.

Quote:
Let me try it here: Accept that I am right and stop posting. Not going to tell you why. Well, did that work to convince you? Or would you say that I need to make a better case in order to convince you?
Sorry, dude, but it's a fallacy to assume that 'making your case better' would help convince me at all. Same thing with Madoka. You don't 'convince' her to stop being self-sacrificing. That's how she is.

Quote:
You do, if you can show them that sacrificing yourself will do nothing for them. Or that sacrificing ones self will only make it worse. "Hey, Madoka, you know that magical girl thing? I know you wanna get out there and smack witches up, but you should know that when your soul gem goes completely dark, you become a witch. And you have a lot of power, so you'd become an incredibly powerful witch, and thus hurt everyone you know and care about. I've come back in time to because your future self told me to stop you from doing that, because we know you could never stand to hurt other people."

Yes, just came up with it off the top of my head, and may need some refinement, but hey, we got plenty of time-loops to jiggle with the word choices.
Sacrificing yourself doesn't actually do anything for you? Yes, that is basically the definition of sacrifice, guy. "You have a lot of power so you'd cause a witch apocalypse"? That implies inherently that she has enough power to save Sayaka and Homura (oh hey! And maybe even Mami and Kyouko!) though. That's nothing but bait for Madoka to start looking for a self-sacrificial solution, man. You just can't stop Madoka from sacrificing herself without not telling her, dude. It's impossible!

Quote:
You haven't been paying attention to the questions that have been mentioned over and over, that should have been asked, have you? I'll help by repeating one:

Kyube: "Witches are born from curses, like magical girls are from wishes."
Madoka: "Born from curses? So do you mean witches were once people, too?"

And that's where it would start. Natural, logical questions that should have occurred to normal, reasonable people.
Not natural at all. I'd never ask that sort of question. Comes across as very authorially convenient and unbelievable dialogue to me. Losing me here, dude.

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Let me put it forth to you: Are plot holes okay, because the audience can simply make up their own explanations for things? If so, that's great! I'll take it with me into my next fanfic, and not bother explaining anything because the audience can simply work it all out in their heads!
Subtlety is a much more difficult art than blatant exposition, yes. For both the author and some particular readers, it seems .

Remember "Show, don't tell"? That's what Madoka abandoning her MG sketchbook at Mami's place was y'know, as opposed to a direct and blatant line like "I'm too scared to revive you". Great writing where intelligence assumed on both the part of the writer and the audience is displayed.

Quote:
in the meantime, for your edification, you may wish to consider reading the following:

8 Classic Movies That Got Away with Gaping Plot Holes
6 Movie Plots Made Possible by Bafflingly Bad Decisions

We can talk after, once you realize that, yes, plot holes and bad decisions are legitimate issues in critiquing a particular work.
You've yet to show me any actual plotholes, guy.



Anyway, as for the other discussion going on in this here Homura thread: with regards to WalpurgisNacht's 'gear' motif, I think we should note that Homura's actual 'time mechanism' is actually an hourglass. Gears and clocks have nothing to do with Homura; just another point to say I don't buy the WalpurgisNacht connection here.
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Old 2011-04-24, 09:40   Link #345
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The regular witches are shown to be killable with Homura's weapons.
Charlotte, Witch Sayaka in episode 10, and 2 other witches in episode 10 bit the dust that way.

I wonder why Walpurgis Night is somehow resistant to being killed?
She used bigger explosives for a bigger witch, theoretically it should have worked.
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Old 2011-04-24, 10:00   Link #346
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WN, I think and after seeing this tough bitch in action, is (and true to its traditional name being a congregation of witches) quite a massive hive concentration of thousands, if not, millions of MGs gone to the dark side and their souls absorbed over the years (and maybe even centuries). This gives WN titanic amounts of destructive offensive energy, regeneration and shielded defense capacity.
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Old 2011-04-24, 10:41   Link #347
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Sacrificing yourself doesn't actually do anything for you? Yes, that is basically the definition of sacrifice, guy. "You have a lot of power so you'd cause a witch apocalypse"? That implies inherently that she has enough power to save Sayaka and Homura (oh hey! And maybe even Mami and Kyouko!) though. That's nothing but bait for Madoka to start looking for a self-sacrificial solution, man. You just can't stop Madoka from sacrificing herself without not telling her, dude. It's impossible!
I agree with pretty much every other point you made (wonderful post by the way), but I thought I'd point this bit out since this argument is a bit flawed. To say that being self-sacrificial is in Madoka's very nature is in no way incorrect, but there's a point to be made that being almost unbearably kind is equally in her nature. So while it is perfectly correct to say that you can't stop a self-sacrificial person from sacrificing herself, we must also consider the realistic effect knowing the kind of Witch she could become might have on her. Here I refer to timeline 3 where, despite almost certainly being aware of how much it would hurt Homura, she wanted to avoid being a Witch so badly that she asked Homura to mercy kill her. That shows a level of dedication toward avoiding Witchhood that may realistically give her pause.
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Old 2011-04-24, 16:45   Link #348
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WN is not resistant to Homura's weapons at all. It is shown it gets pieces of it blown off. If you consider WN a conglomeration of all the witches banding together, then all Homura doing is chipping WN off with all her weapons. Each explosion, missile only gets to kill one or a few witches within WN. It's a matter of simply Homura ran out of her energy from her shield where she can either reset or turn into witch before WN loses significant chunks of itself.
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Old 2011-04-25, 01:09   Link #349
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Actually I like Homura because her character is flawed and does make poor decisons. And yea, she's a terrible liar, it really shows.
i find this sweet. she can't even look directly to the one she loved the most. and even if it's only the two of them, she still held back. she didn't finish her statement just ended it in "you are..." fortunately, goddess madoka finished it for her. "you're my best friend." if that is also what she supposedly about to say, we'll never know.


regarding homu's weapons, i think a nuke is a bit too powerful that would endanger the civilians, other lifeforms, and the city in general. besides japan is not listed as a nuclear state. the nearest would be in north korea or china. i do believe her ordnance delivered some damage. WN is just too great for her. in tl3, madoka survived the fighting (well at least they still have some time to talk after) because homura was there. i'm sure homu made her share.
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Old 2011-04-25, 01:19   Link #350
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Originally Posted by kaigan View Post
i find this sweet. she can't even look directly to the one she loved the most. and even if it's only the two of them, she still held back. she didn't finish her statement just ended it in "you are..." fortunately, goddess madoka finished it for her. "you're my best friend." if that is also what she supposedly about to say, we'll never know.
I find it really sweet too, since you now know that every time she tries to act distant to Madoka, she's always holding back what she really thinks. Pretty heartbreaking stuff.

Which is why I found it really heartwarming when Madoka calls her out on it, and well... it's just too much to handle.
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Old 2011-04-25, 18:29   Link #351
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Here is what I imagine Mahou Shoujo Homura Magica will be all about
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgpK6...eature=related
Heck, the monsters even drop crystals...
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Old 2011-04-25, 19:14   Link #352
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Originally Posted by Hagoshod View Post
That's because Walpurgisnacht's inherent nature defies the laws of time, just Homura does after becoming a Magical Girl. Homura made a contract with Kyubey to basically go back in time and stop herself from killing Madoka. That is the cruel irony of her wish. It was always her destiny to turn into Walpurgisnacht. No matter how hard she tries, Homura cannot beat her greatest opponent: Herself.


A Soul Gem is a physical item, and logic states a Grief Seed can travel around just as easily.
1.) There is nothing to indicate that Walpurgisnacht has time traveling abilities. Calling time-travel on the basis of its appearance on all timelines does not hold ground. Homura is also aware of Charlotte. That does not mean Charlotte is a time-traveller.

2.) Thematically, Walpurgisnacht cannot be Homura because it was never emphasized. For there to even be room for such speculation means that Walpurgisnacht's identity was never a detail important to the story, just like the identity of all the other Witches like Patricia, Elsa Maria, Charlotte, etc. With Homura being such a major character and Walpurgisnacht being such a major enemy, there is no way Urobuchi would leave any room for uncertainty if he meant to establish a crucial plot point.

3.) The series has made a big deal about hope and despair balancing each other out. There is a huge difference in the scale of power between Homura and Walpurgisnacht. While Homura has shown her combat prowess, the only true magical power she has is her timestop ability. Her arsenal is composed entirely of non-magical weaponry taken from other sources, which is not a part of Homura. While Homura may have grown smarter and more well-prepared, her raw power has shown no signs of changing. She was able to one-shot Witches, like Patricia and Oktavia even when she still shy and meek, with conventional weaponry.
Meanwhile, Walpurgisnacht is able to throw sky scrapers and level a city with ease, and it is able to exist without a labyrinth.
The second most powerful Witch seen in the series does not match Puella Magi Homura, whom Kyubey has stated to be "just the same as any other Puella Magi" in episode 11.

4.) Symbolically, there is little to support that Walpurgisnacht is Homura. The Witch had marching elephants for its arrival. It's constantly laughing and wears a large, blue dress. It shoots a dark beam that turns into silhouettes of girls, each with a unique design that we have never seen before. The only possible indication that it could have anything to do with time-travel is the gears under the dress, which people could associate with a clock. However, even that is sketchy, as gears can be associated with machinery that have little to do with clocks.
Oktavia matched Sayaka's style with swords and music. Why is Walpurgisnacht so different?
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Old 2011-04-25, 20:17   Link #353
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I love that Shadow5YA,

WN is almost the opposite of Homura;

- Seemingly getting stronger every TL (Or was always strong from the start)

- Always happy

- Quite the company she has (A whole carnival)

- People who work in carnivals are usually quite athletic/physically fit, right?

Whereas Homura on the other hand....
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Old 2011-04-25, 21:29   Link #354
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There is also the issue of these dancing witches upon WN's death/undoing which seems to support WN being a congregation of witches more than WN being the witch form of Homura.


To be fair I'm not trying to shut down the possibility of WN being Homura's witch form entirely altogether, just trying to show that WN equalling Witch Homura is not indisputable based on what was presented.
I count 32 witches/familiars there.

[Footnote 32: Walpurgis Night. May-night. Walpurgis is the female saint
who converted the Saxons to Christianity. - The Brocken or Blocksberg is
the highest peak of the Harz mountains, which comprise about 1350 square
miles. - Schirke and Elend are two villages in the neighborhood.]

http://www.ebooksread.com/authors-en...aust-8-0.shtml

Coincidence?
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Old 2011-04-26, 12:21   Link #355
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Something I've been thinking about since the finale is what was post-witch world Homura's wish and when would she have made it? Why would she need to become a magical girl if Madoka never existed?

Actually, shouldn't she still be a meek girl in glasses and twintails?

Last edited by *Osaka*Fan*; 2011-04-26 at 12:30. Reason: new idea
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Old 2011-04-26, 12:29   Link #356
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Something I've been thinking about since the finale is what was post-witch world Homura's wish and when would she have made it? Why would she need to become a magical girl if Madoka never existed?
Maybe her bad health condition ?
The fact is (well, IMO) it isn't Homura who made the wish. It's Homuralternate.
To me, "our" Homura realise she's in the new universe right after Sayaka sacrifice.
That's when she whispered "Madoka" which made Mami wondering who is this person Homura is referring to.

I think it's the moment the two Homura are merging into one.

Last edited by Sageblink; 2011-04-26 at 13:12.
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Old 2011-04-26, 12:33   Link #357
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Something I've been thinking about since the finale is what was post-witch world Homura's wish and when would she have made it? Why would she need to become a magical girl if Madoka never existed?
Because she still remember everything else even if she can no longer remember Madoka due to her unique time/space traveling powers. Her wish may have changed to something like seeking out or meeting Madoka that eludes her memory.
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Old 2011-04-26, 12:55   Link #358
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Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
Because she still remember everything else even if she can no longer remember Madoka due to her unique time/space traveling powers. Her wish may have changed to something like seeking out or meeting Madoka that eludes her memory.
Where is the idea that she doesn't remember Madoka coming from? =/
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Old 2011-04-26, 12:56   Link #359
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Might be a case of changed reality our Madokami-sama is praised for. Homura's wish is glitched since the person she wished to protect is hardly locatable/protectable anymore. As the nature of glitches is glitchy, hence the change in her power. I could almost ascribe it to Madoka's deliberate omnipotent action... If I didn't doubt Madoka would deliberately make Homura a magical girl again. But yes, it is a really curious point.
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Old 2011-04-26, 13:44   Link #360
SagaraSouske
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Where is the idea that she doesn't remember Madoka coming from? =/
Coming from the world getting reset and thus when Homura is making wish again for the first time (and the only time in this new world/system), she could not have possibly met Madoka since she has no corporal existence in this new world and she cannot be creating a new time loop using her wish.

The other possibility of course would be Homura never get reset along with the rest of the world due to her special powers and the fact she survived and witnessed Madoka's wish come into effect. In that case, she would remember Madoka and is already a MG in the new world without making a wish due to her wish being made in the old world.

However, as we see her fighting majyuus in eps 12, her powers are no longer time manipulation (using a bow now) and thus this indicates that she did indeed make a new wish and was granted different powers. IMHO this wish was to find Madoka and meet her again.
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