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Old 2011-04-26, 09:09   Link #1021
Kanon
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Originally Posted by revive4563 View Post
Even if the word Iroha has meaning of "beginner" too as an archaic word but even in Japan, only few people know that. (possibly it's Ohana's nickname?)
Oh, good idea. That'd be a far better nickname than "Ohanachi".
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Old 2011-04-26, 09:27   Link #1022
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Originally Posted by OceanBlue View Post
Everyone's need to frame things under "drama" or "comedy" make me wonder if they're seriously expecting the anime to force itself to create melodrama.
I can't help but find what you're writing here a bit ironic, as I found Episode 3 to be incredibly melodramatic.

What can you call Jiromaru's attempted suicide scene other than exaggerated, and sensationalized?

Because of how it was presented in a thoroughly comedic and hammy light, it lacked an air of seriousness to it, at least for me. To me, it very much felt like a mockery of the sort of heavy drama that borders on melodrama that you sometimes see in a Jun Maeda work. But whereas Maeda comes right up to that melodrama line, but usually is skillful enough to stop from going over it, the Jiromaru attempted suicide scene marches head-on into, well, cheesy melodrama. That's how I find it if I try to take it seriously anyway.

I can't speak for anybody else, but when I talk about "serious drama" I don't necessarily mean something as deathly serious as Monster, say. What I basically mean by "serious drama" is realistic drama. Perhaps it would be better if I used the term "realistic drama" going forward.


Episode 4, to me, was realistic drama. Drama can absolutely have lighthearted and comedic moments, just like Episode 4 had. Shakespeare himself had plenty of these. But, in my opinion, the key to a good drama is maintaining viewer buy-in. In other words, it is important for the viewer to be able to swallow what he's watching right in front of him, to be able to "suspend disbelief" as it were (not that this should be a problem anyway with a slice of life show, which is a big part of the reason why slice of life and drama tend to go well together, imo).

I just couldn't swallow Episode 3 at a basic believability level. Which would be fine if this anime wasn't aiming to tell a believable story, and was more like a pure comedy in the Naked Gun, Space Balls, and Scary Movie tradition. But I had the impression from the first two episodes that this anime was trying to tell a believable story at least.


Now, of course drama and comedy can mix in the same work. Indeed, a work entirely lacking comedy may well fail to entertain most people. But there are types of comedy that weave seamlessly into realistic drama, while others take the realism out of realistic drama, imo.


Now, the ability to "suspend disbelief" will vary from viewer to viewer, and I respect that. If I myself could have maintained a suspension of disbelief for Episode 3, I probably would have been much less critical of it. But I couldn't. The Jiromaru attempted suicide scene took an episode that had already stretched my suspension of disbelief to the limit (Ohana's almost instantaneous Stockholm Syndrome didn't help there), and just threw it over a cliff, much like what Jiormaru did with himself. Unlike Jiromaru, though, my suspension of disbelief didn't live to tell the tale.
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Old 2011-04-26, 09:40   Link #1023
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Originally Posted by revive4563 View Post
It's first time I learnt that there is an abbreviation named "ZR" (Zettai Ryouiki?)
Yeah, it's for that. It's a tricky spelling, so I play it safe and abbreviate.

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Are you being serious? It's apart of the name for this series.
I believe he meant "has great characters."
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Old 2011-04-26, 10:10   Link #1024
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Originally Posted by revive4563 View Post
Then...why did he mention it here?

Well, actually Iroha is girl's name in Japan but heroine's name is Ohana.
So, it's confusing the title of this series named "Hanasaku Iroha".(Blooming Iroha)
Even if the word Iroha has meaning of "beginner" too as an archaic word but even in Japan, only few people know that. (possibly it's Ohana's nickname?)

btw Congrats on the independence!
According to P.A. Work's blog, Hanasaku Iroha has two meanings - Blooming (Beginning of) Flowers and Color of Flowers. If you combine them you get "Color of Blooming Flowers".
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Old 2011-04-26, 10:55   Link #1025
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Can't believe nobody has claimed these beauties. Wrap arms around them.

Edit: Opps, guess someone did took the second one. I'll stick with the first then.
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Old 2011-04-26, 11:32   Link #1026
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I can't help but find what you're writing here a bit ironic, as I found Episode 3 to be incredibly melodramatic.

What can you call Jiromaru's attempted suicide scene other than exaggerated, and sensationalized?

Because of how it was presented in a thoroughly comedic and hammy light, it lacked an air of seriousness to it, at least for me. To me, it very much felt like a mockery of the sort of heavy drama that borders on melodrama that you sometimes see in a Jun Maeda work. But whereas Maeda comes right up to that melodrama line, but usually is skillful enough to stop from going over it, the Jiromaru attempted suicide scene marches head-on into, well, cheesy melodrama. That's how I find it if I try to take it seriously anyway.
But why try and take something that's presented in a comedic light seriously?
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Old 2011-04-26, 11:53   Link #1027
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Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil View Post
Edit: Opps, guess someone did took the second one. I'll stick with the first then.
Except that it was also taken here. Please have a look if you can find another one there. ^^

If you still prefer that one switch to this, the same but flipped horizontally.

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Old 2011-04-26, 13:08   Link #1028
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Originally Posted by totoum View Post
But why try and take something that's presented in a comedic light seriously?
Which I believe is answered by this part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I just couldn't swallow Episode 3 at a basic believability level. Which would be fine if this anime wasn't aiming to tell a believable story, and was more like a pure comedy in the Naked Gun, Space Balls, and Scary Movie tradition. But I had the impression from the first two episodes that this anime was trying to tell a believable story at least.
I suppose it's fair to expect a believable story after the first two episodes have been mostly down-to-earth. Perhaps if episode 3 were funny enough, then you wouldn't have to deal with the internal issue of doubting whether the story is realistic or not. Episode 3 didn't seem like it was meant to be taken seriously at all.

I guess it comes down to whether it's the writer's job to make the story plausible, or the viewer to have the innate ability to suspend their own disbelief. The general consensus with episode 3 is... it was the script's fault. The storyline just wasn't funny enough to justify such a steep decrease in believability.
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Old 2011-04-26, 13:13   Link #1029
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Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
I suppose it's fair to expect a believable story after the first two episodes have been mostly down-to-earth. Perhaps if episode 3 were funny enough, then you wouldn't have to deal with the internal issue of doubting whether the story is realistic or not. Episode 3 didn't seem like it was meant to be taken seriously at all.

I guess it comes down to whether it's the writer's job to make the story plausible, or the viewer to have the innate ability to suspend their own disbelief. The general consensus with episode 3 is... it was the script's fault. The storyline just wasn't funny enough to justify such a steep decrease in believability.
We're pretty much in complete agreement on Hana-Saku Iroha Episode 3. What I put in bold are the key factors for me.
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Old 2011-04-26, 13:21   Link #1030
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Quote:
I suppose it's fair to expect a believable story after the first two episodes have been mostly down-to-earth.
I personaly had to suspend my disbelief at the concept of a girl being sent to live to her grandma because her mom is running away with her boyfriend after he got into trouble with dept collectors and gave away the mom's adress.

That doesn't seem really seem "down to earth to me".

And I know you said "mostly",but this isn't some sort of detail,it's the premise of the show.

Again it definatly feels like we didn't watch the same first episode,I have the drama/comedy ration at 50/50 not 90/10
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Old 2011-04-26, 13:25   Link #1031
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I can't help but find what you're writing here a bit ironic, as I found Episode 3 to be incredibly melodramatic.
I wasn't talking about episode 3. As far as I'm concerned, Hanairo's episode 3 is like Gurren Lagann's episode 4; it was done well enough standalone, but it doesn't fit anywhere within the other three episodes so far.

What I'm talking about is the idea that, since episodes 1 and 2 were somewhat dramatic, episode 4 needs to be dramatic as well. How dramatic something is will follow along with the events; in my opinion, they shouldn't make everything dramatic to follow some sort of consistency the viewers feel they need, since that just makes it feel forced.
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Old 2011-04-26, 13:26   Link #1032
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
I personaly had to suspend my disbelief at the concept of a girl being sent to live to her grandma because her mom is running away with her boyfriend after he got into trouble with dept collectors and gave away the mom's adress.

That doesn't seem really seem "down to earth to me".

And I know you said "mostly",but this isn't some sort of detail,it's the premise of the show.
I guess that, oddly/ironically enough, the show's premise didn't seem that unbelievable to me.

I know some real life stories that honestly aren't that far off from the premise of this show.


Quote:
Originally Posted by OceanBlue View Post
I wasn't talking about episode 3. As far as I'm concerned, Hanairo's episode 3 is like Gurren Lagann's episode 4; it was done well enough standalone, but it doesn't fit anywhere within the other three episodes so far.

What I'm talking about is the idea that, since episodes 1 and 2 were somewhat dramatic, episode 4 needs to be dramatic as well. How dramatic something is will follow along with the events; in my opinion, they shouldn't make everything dramatic to follow some sort of consistency the viewers feel they need, since that just makes it feel forced.
Ah, I understand. Thanks for the correction.

I more or less agree with you on Episode 4. Episode 4's mix of comedy/drama I'm cool with.
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Old 2011-04-26, 13:58   Link #1033
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
lol, so have you actually tried watching it?

But yea, I always thought each show had a "2 fail male character limit". Typically this consists of one guy who is hilariously inept at communication, usually with the other gender and a clown for comic relief. This is pretty standard and all, but here I just wish to slap most of them.
While I agree that Jiromaru and Tohru are probably unlikeable characters for many, I'm not sure how they're "fail" characters. Seriously, one is an artsy version of Saito from Welcome to the NHK played for comedy, the other is a prick who seems to enjoy tormenting his schoolgirl coworkers. That's a long way from your usual "harem lead/epic fail sidekick" combination, and I actually like the two for what they bring to the show despite the fact they're the kind of people I wouldn't like much IRL.

It's not like the girls don't have major personality flaws too. Ohana? A bit naive (though less so than the norm for this character type). Nako? Lacks backbone. Minko? Anti-social. Tomoe? Gossips far too much to deal with the fact her life isn't like a steamy romance novel or soap opera.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Now, the ability to "suspend disbelief" will vary from viewer to viewer, and I respect that. If I myself could have maintained a suspension of disbelief for Episode 3, I probably would have been much less critical of it. But I couldn't. The Jiromaru attempted suicide scene took an episode that had already stretched my suspension of disbelief to the limit (Ohana's almost instantaneous Stockholm Syndrome didn't help there), and just threw it over a cliff, much like what Jiormaru did with himself. Unlike Jiromaru, though, my suspension of disbelief didn't live to tell the tale.
I never had an issue with Jiromaru's suicide attempt, I just assumed he's a bit messed up in the head. And remember, the Japanese often pretend mental problems (both theirs and those of others) don't exist due to social stigmas.

As for Ohana's "Stockholm Syndrome", I've actually revised my position a bit on that.

Spoiler for Cross posted from episode 3 thread:


Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
I personaly had to suspend my disbelief at the concept of a girl being sent to live to her grandma because her mom is running away with her boyfriend after he got into trouble with dept collectors and gave away the mom's adress.
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Originally Posted by totoum View Post
Again it definatly feels like we didn't watch the same first episode,I have the drama/comedy ration at 50/50 not 90/10
This is pretty much what I took from the early episodes too. Given the True Tears heritage, I expected - and still expect - many poignant moments. And we've already gotten some, usually involving Ko. But the upbeat trailer and the hammy premise told me it wasn't going to be serious all the time. In fact, I see "chaos" as a part of this show's character - this show throws a lot of stuff at Ohana, both dramatic and comedic, and its not necessarily going to trend one way or the other for long.
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Old 2011-04-26, 14:03   Link #1034
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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post

I find it ironic that some here insist that this show had actually set out to be "serious drama", when they criticise others of imposing predetermined opinions on how other shows are "supposed to develop". Double-standards much?

All in all, I'm looking forward to further adventures with Ohana and friends.
I suppose this can be directed at me slightly, but I'll offer up an explanation.

I fully admit that my opinion on this matter is biased, as I was expecting something else.

However, once I shift my perspective a bit, I've still haven't been able to come to terms with episode 3 because I personally didn't find it all that funny or amusing. That's simply my opinion on the matter.
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Old 2011-04-26, 14:33   Link #1035
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Perhaps if episode 3 were funny enough, then you wouldn't have to deal with the internal issue of doubting whether the story is realistic or not.
Sadly this is a self defeating assumption. Humor is almost 90% of the time displayed by tacking a normal situation (or some kind of plot device) and going with it to the extreme. Thatís why comedies always come of as pretty silly. To make something funny and at the same time keep a serious tone is like a holy grail in writing. It can be done, but itís just so !@#$ hard, that most of the time it happens itís simply a (temporary) stoke of genius! Humor is also largely dependent on humor, a funny scene can become hilarious if you put other equally funny scenes near it; just as drama is created from series of events converging together.

Needless to say Ep3 was meant to be funny (the silliness is evidence). In my opinion the only mistake they made with it was adding the serious scenes. If they had simply gone all out, the episode and series would have been better of.
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Old 2011-04-26, 15:31   Link #1036
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Originally Posted by totoum View Post
I personally had to suspend my disbelief at the concept of a girl being sent to live to her grandma because her mom is running away with her boyfriend after he got into trouble with dept collectors and gave away the mom's address.

That doesn't seem really seem "down to earth to me".
What, never seen a show or movie with a married couple doing a moonlight flit before? Elopement is well-documented in history. And there's nothing particularly out of place for a granddaughter to go live with her grandmother because the parents are having some difficulties.

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Originally Posted by felix View Post
Sadly this is a self defeating assumption. Humor is almost 90% of the time displayed by tacking a normal situation (or some kind of plot device) and going with it to the extreme.
Citation needed.
Turning typical situations into serious business is a form of comedy, but not all comedy is as such. There's laughing out loud at extremely silly situations, and then there's chuckling at something a little bit strange. Both qualify as comedy.

Quote:
Thatís why comedies always come of as pretty silly. To make something funny and at the same time keep a serious tone is like a holy grail in writing. It can be done, but itís just so !@#$ hard, that most of the time it happens itís simply a (temporary) stoke of genius! Humor is also largely dependent on humor, a funny scene can become hilarious if you put other equally funny scenes near it; just as drama is created from series of events converging together.
I don't understand how this relates. When an episode is really funny, you stop caring about whether the plot is serious or not. Episode 3 tried going all the way with the melodrama, but it just wasn't funny enough to suspend most of the viewers' disbelief. This has little to do with being both serious and comedic at the same time.
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Old 2011-04-26, 15:43   Link #1037
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Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
I never had an issue with Jiromaru's suicide attempt, I just assumed he's a bit messed up in the head.
Just to clarify, I have no problem with the fact that Jiromaru tried to commit suicide. I just felt that the overall execution of that attempted suicide scene was quite a mess.

I mean, the sense I took from Jiromaru's suicide attempt scene is that the anime was trying to accomplish both of the following, simultaneously:

1) Make you laugh at this guy's ineptitude, and just how pitiful he is.

2) Make you feel sympathy for the guy's misfortune, and just how horrible his life situation is (hence you'd agree with how the protagonists handled him and the broader situation).

And for me anyway, the anime trying to do both of these very different things at the same time meant that they didn't really accomplish either. It also played a major role in making the whole scene feel very unrealistic to me.


Quote:
As for Ohana's "Stockholm Syndrome", I've actually revised my position a bit on that.
Yes, I read that.

While I see your point on "curiosity", I have a harder time with your point on"embarrassing".

Ohana is clearly not a person who gets embarrassed easily. I mean, in front of a significant number of people, she actually exclaimed to the person writing her as a central character in erotic fiction that she "wants to sparkle!"

The Japanese in general may hate being the center of attention, but I certainly don't get that vibe from Ohana at all. If Ohana hated being the center of attention, there's no way she'd go out of her way to cook breakfast for everyone, be willing to speak up against even the slightest perceived injustice she comes across, or take a vocal leading role in trying to get everyone to like her and be on friendly terms with her.

The fact that she handled the Episode 4 in-class mobbing very well also speaks to how she's reasonably comfortable being the center of attention, imo.
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Old 2011-04-26, 15:49   Link #1038
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Hanasaku now has its own sub forum? Yay!
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Old 2011-04-26, 16:05   Link #1039
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Hanasaku now has its own sub forum? Yay!
I'm glad to see that myself.

This anime has proven to be a very interesting one to watch and talk about.
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Old 2011-04-26, 16:21   Link #1040
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
2) Make you feel sympathy for the guy's misfortune, and just how horrible his life situation is (hence you'd agree with how the protagonists handled him and the broader situation).
I agree with how the protagonists dealt with him because even in some of the most pathetic people there's got to be some kind of potential in there someplace,that's the message I got anyway from Ohana saying that he at least had gotten something right about her,doesn't mean you have to like the execution of this any better,but to me the "broken record" sound at the end of his speech told me to not really feel sorry for this guy.
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