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Old 2011-04-28, 12:19   Link #1281
Irisiel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SS13 View Post
No, the real question is what happened to Macross Galaxy? Was it destroyed? Or did it get away? Or is it in the conspiracy and now it's still out there, waiting for a chance for revenge?

As for implants, note this: if implants were mandatory, and if Grace (and some other) wanted to use Sheryl, she would be the last person to be allowed an exception, selling point or not. So implant-less people were not just an underground minority.
Sheryl, by virtue of being Galaxy's puppet songstress as well as their guinea pig with the infection could very well have been granted a medical exception.

I know that if I was a doctor who wants to know how a virus/infection/whatever interacted with a body, I wouldn't fill that body with what is essentially pretty new technology, since there's remote possibility that it is the combination of tech+infection that produces certain symptoms that could falsely be attributed to either.

And I think that the next Macross series showing the time after Frontier will be focused on cyborgs versus natural humantradi, which is perhaps why the whole Galaxy fleet wasn't destroyed in Frontier.
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Old 2011-04-28, 13:04   Link #1282
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Originally Posted by Irisiel View Post
Sheryl, by virtue of being Galaxy's puppet songstress as well as their guinea pig with the infection could very well have been granted a medical exception.
And how would that have been explained to her, since she didn't even know the specifics of her disease until past mid-show, I wonder?
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Old 2011-04-28, 13:07   Link #1283
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Originally Posted by Irisiel View Post
And I think that the next Macross series showing the time after Frontier will be focused on cyborgs versus natural humantradi, which is perhaps why the whole Galaxy fleet wasn't destroyed in Frontier.
I've been saying that for three years now. Good to see that someone agrees with me.
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Old 2011-04-28, 13:18   Link #1284
Irisiel
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Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
And how would that have been explained to her, since she didn't even know the specifics of her disease until past mid-show, I wonder?
"Tests have shown that you have a ninety percent chance of rejecting any implants, therefore I do not recommend for you to pursue it." - One of Galaxy's pet doctors.

Or maybe it isn't usual for Galaxy to implant someone past infanthood, or Sheryl linked it to her illness and numerous hospital stays (maybe with a combi with a doctor repeating the above).

Or maybe Grace managed to bring her up thinking that while implants were the norm in Galaxy, Sheryl did not have to have them. Depends on how much of Sheryl's stream of information that Grace was able to manipulate (and really, Grace wasn't exactly alone in the fairy project, and Galaxy is their home playing field so to speak).
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Old 2011-04-28, 14:26   Link #1285
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Originally Posted by SS13 View Post
No, the real question is what happened to Macross Galaxy? Was it destroyed? Or did it get away? Or is it in the conspiracy and now it's still out there, waiting for a chance for revenge?

As for implants, note this: if implants were mandatory, and if Grace (and some other) wanted to use Sheryl, she would be the last person to be allowed an exception, selling point or not. So implant-less people were not just an underground minority.
She was a puppet of Galaxy and one of her main selling points was the fact that she didn't have any implants. She says as much in the episode "Star Date". It is a fact though that there are very few people who don't have implants in Galaxy as Sheryl is considered exotic because of the fact that she doesn't have any implants. So yeah this was actually stated in series.


Quote:
WHAT is ego, then? The opinion that you are the only one who matters? Sheryl never was like this (note she cares for Galaxy even though she wasn't really happy there. Also note she helps Ranka). The idea that you are very important, well this IS suipported by "hopes and dreams"... but this is even more true now that her voice really is their only hope.

And as for sexuality... Sheryl isn't that well-endowed, you know. Nanase isn't worse than her, and then there are micronized zentraedi (except Klan). So Sheryl was ultimately spot on: the most important reason for male gaze n her breasts is the voice of the owner - not the other way around, and Sheryl surely knew that. She ddn't realised her popularity was fabricated, but the effects - and limits - of it she knew pretty well.
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ego/ˈigoʊ, ˈɛgoʊ/ Show Spelled[ee-goh, eg-oh] Show IPA
noun, plural egos.
1.
the I or self of any person; a person as thinking, feeling, and willing, and distinguishing itself from the selves of others and from objects of its thought.
2.
Psychoanalysis . the part of the psychic apparatus that experiences and reacts to the outside world and thus mediates between the primitive drives of the id and the demands of the social and physical environment.
3.
egotism; conceit; self-importance: Her ego becomes more unbearable each day.
I think that your throwing the word ego around in the wrong areas.

Knowing that people find you attractive isn't a sign of being egotistical, as its merely you being aware of the fact that you are sexually attractive, and its effect on other people. And the last time I checked your boobs don't have to be big for them to be considered sexy (though Sheryl's boob size fluctuates between average and just big) or pleasing to look at or for other people to desire to look at them (ex: Halle Berry). Not every girl in the world isn't aware of the fact that she is in some way shape or form attractive.

It doesn't support anything, in fact none of the points you brought up support your belief.

I also can't say that Sheryl's career and popularity was fabricated either as we don't see Grace interfere with her too much if it isn't something that has to do with her managerial duties. Remember Sheryl is a singer of intergalactic fame but we only get to see her on Frontier and Galaxy. There is also the fact that if people didn't like her songs then they wouldn't listen to them. Sheryl's not borrowing anyone else's fame, but creating one for herself.
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Old 2011-04-29, 15:59   Link #1286
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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
I also can't say that Sheryl's career and popularity was fabricated either as we don't see Grace interfere with her too much if it isn't something that has to do with her managerial duties. Remember Sheryl is a singer of intergalactic fame but we only get to see her on Frontier and Galaxy. There is also the fact that if people didn't like her songs then they wouldn't listen to them. Sheryl's not borrowing anyone else's fame, but creating one for herself.
I have to disagree here a bit because you are diminishing Graces potential as a villain.

Her career was fabricated if you look at episode 15. Grace explained that Project Fairy has failed. Her career was only a decoy to cover the experiment Grace is doing with her. It was in her own interest to push Sheryls career and popularity.
In the episodes between 15 to 18 you can see that Grace is the true source of Sheryls success. She managed to raise Rankas popularity and decrease Sheryl on the other side. Episode 18 Grace reveals that without her, Sheryl would still be in the slums.

I would say that Grace has a lot to do with Sheryls career and popularity. Otherwise she would not have guided Sheryl for so long and had been her manager.

Edit: Episode 22, when the bridge bunnies were talking about Sheryls new singing. It would be interesting what one of them meant with liking her how she sings at the moment.
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Old 2011-04-29, 16:13   Link #1287
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I don't think you can be quite that manipulative - the market itself wouldn't let you. Sheryl's success cannot be simply a manipulation, even though that plays a part (and probably a very big one, in researching trends and exploring opportunities) it's not the sum total of it.

If that was so, any manager could make any bum a superstar. And that doesn't happen everyday, does it? I mean... Well... Yeah.
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Old 2011-04-29, 16:26   Link #1288
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Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
I don't think you can be quite that manipulative - the market itself wouldn't let you. Sheryl's success cannot be simply a manipulation, even though that plays a part (and probably a very big one, in researching trends and exploring opportunities) it's not the sum total of it.

If that was so, any manager could make any bum a superstar. And that doesn't happen everyday, does it? I mean... Well... Yeah.
Well, in fictional scripts everything is possible.

Sheryl also worked for her career and popularity but without Graces support it would be a bit harder to be at that carreer level she had at the beginning of the series. But the fishy part here that she thinks of sheryl as an experiment which makes someone believe all what has been done is fabricated.
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Old 2011-04-29, 16:37   Link #1289
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Both girls became who they did because they took full advantage of the opportunities presented to them, as well as the support of the people around them. You can't undermine their career successes on the basis of the support that they received or the benefactors that they had.

I should also point out that while the first half of the story suggested that Sheryl became who she was because of Grace's nurturing, the second half clearly showed that she stayed true to who she was in spite of Grace. There are very few characters (or people, for that matter) to my mind who have made the journey to greatness not once, but twice.
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Old 2011-04-29, 17:29   Link #1290
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Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
Well, in fictional scripts everything is possible.

Sheryl also worked for her career and popularity but without Graces support it would be a bit harder to be at that carreer level she had at the beginning of the series. But the fishy part here that she thinks of sheryl as an experiment which makes someone believe all what has been done is fabricated.
Well yeah Sheryl is an experiment, but just because Grace and her partners decided to infect her with the V-type infection, when Grace picked Sheryl up she didn't plan to make her a famous Idol, they didn't even know if Sheryl was going to survive the infection.

It's stated in Galaxy Memory (the manga and Drama CD both written by Yoshino) that it was when grace catched little Sheryl singing Totsugeki love heart and asked her is she liked to sing to which Sheryl answered "Yes I love to sing" that Grace got the idea to make her a singer because she was impressed with her.
I agree that part of Sheryl success and fame is thanks to Grace and those voices of Galaxy, but we know they didn't add implants on her, or changed Sheryl's voice or used subliminal things ala Sharon Apple to make the people like Sheryl's songs, what I can see them doing is using their contacts and influence to help her become famous much faster and give her opportunities a normal person would not have, but that's it

The people of Frontier started to forget Sheryl not because Grace left her, but because she was confined in the hospital, with no new concerts or appearances on TV it's normal, on the other hand Ranka was very busy and the goverment was promoting her, but when Ranka left for the Vajra planet and Sheryl was again able to sing she started to regain her popularity without Grace.
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Old 2011-04-29, 18:25   Link #1291
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Originally Posted by Dash_Hunter View Post
The people of Frontier started to forget Sheryl not because Grace left her, but because she was confined in the hospital, with no new concerts or appearances on TV it's normal, on the other hand Ranka was very busy and the goverment was promoting her, but when Ranka left for the Vajra planet and Sheryl was again able to sing she started to regain her popularity without Grace.
Fame is fleeting and dependent on exposure then?

This is an interesting discussion...but the idol world is one which I'd guess most, if not all, of us have little to no idea about. Especially if they're basing it on the Japanese idol 'system' (Johnny's, Hello! Project etc), which seems to be closer to the studio system of the Golden Age of cinema than the current age of Western idol-singers. (At least, that's the impression I got from reading an analysis of it a couple of years back.) But whatever the case, with the saturation of the market, you really can't make it big at a young age unless you have major backing.

Sheryl had the talent and the dedication to hone it...but it was Grace and her backers who provided all the opportunities. Where Grace is coming from is the fact that Sheryl really wouldn't have gotten anywhere without her backing (or someone's backing - it could have been anyone with the money), no matter how much talent and dedication she had. Even her revival would not have been possible without the base that had already been built, at least not as quickly etc.

=====

And going back a bit further before I post the last commentary in a couple of hours...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtabby View Post
My question is whether it's more accurate than other translations. (I'm thinking in particular of one that was something along the lines of "Let's call off pretending to be lovers." Not that I think Sheryl meant that honestly, but I do wonder if that's more in line with what she was actually saying.)
This translation is more accurate, and, IMHO, there IS a deeper meaning to the line - or rather, to Sheryl's side of the conversation - than all other interpretations I've found in this forum.

edit: Ah...actually, someone finally got there recently. I'm glad the posting of the novel section got that across ^^
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Last edited by karice67; 2011-04-29 at 20:37.
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Old 2011-04-29, 18:39   Link #1292
wisteria233
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Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
Well, in fictional scripts everything is possible.

Sheryl also worked for her career and popularity but without Graces support it would be a bit harder to be at that carreer level she had at the beginning of the series. But the fishy part here that she thinks of sheryl as an experiment which makes someone believe all what has been done is fabricated.
But its the same for Ranka isn't it? If it wasn't for Elmo's backing and contacts Ranka never would have made it, her immense popularity can also be owned up to the government supporting her, and making her the symbol of Frontier.

Its the same for any pop idol without any backing can't get anywhere. But at the same time if they don't have any talent, or people don't like their songs then they simply won't make it no matter how many contacts they have.
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Old 2011-04-29, 19:43   Link #1293
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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
But its the same for Ranka isn't it? If it wasn't for Elmo's backing and contacts Ranka never would have made it, her immense popularity can also be owned up to the government supporting her, and making her the symbol of Frontier.

Its the same for any pop idol without any backing can't get anywhere. But at the same time if they don't have any talent, or people don't like their songs then they simply won't make it no matter how many contacts they have.
Well, yes, it is the same for Ranka. Her complete role as Songstress of hope is fabricated by Grace and Leon. But both had her under observation since Miss Macross contest and Gallia IV.

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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
This is an interesting discussion...but the idol world is one which I'd guess most, if not all, of us have little to no idea about. Especially if they're basing it on the Japanese idol 'system' (Johnny's, Hello! Project etc), which seems to be closer to the studio system of the Golden Age of cinema than the current age of Western idol-singers. (At least, that's the impression I got from reading an analysis of it a couple of years back.) But whatever the case, with the saturation of the market, you really can't make it big at a young age unless you have major backing.
Not sure but when you wrote that I had to think about Miley Cyrus, Jonas Brothers and Justin Biber lol. In their case they had someone big (famous name or company) behind them pushing them while they were young.
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Old 2011-04-29, 20:33   Link #1294
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Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
Well, yes, it is the same for Ranka. Her complete role as Songstress of hope is fabricated by Grace and Leon. But both had her under observation since Miss Macross contest and Gallia IV.
While Ranka's role of Songtress of Hope, which allowed her to gain a stranglehold popularity in Frontier was fabricated, her previous popularity wasn't. The same thing happened with Sheryl, if neither of them didn't have any talent then they would not have been able to go very far, as you can't force someone to like your songs, no matter how much backing you have.

Its kinda like the real world there are people that have all the talent in world but no contacts, with people in the business, and so never get the big break and make it big.


Quote:
Not sure but when you wrote that I had to think about Miley Cyrus, Jonas Brothers and Justin Biber lol. In their case they had someone big (famous name or company) behind them pushing them while they were young.

Not really with Miley Cyrus it was her dad, with Justine Biber it was Usher, and with the Jonas Brothers it seems like it was their record label pushing them.

I've heard of there being companies in Japan that exist solely create idols.
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Old 2011-04-29, 21:29   Link #1295
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Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
Not sure but when you wrote that I had to think about Miley Cyrus, Jonas Brothers and Justin Biber lol. In their case they had someone big (famous name or company) behind them pushing them while they were young.
What wisteria said about idol-creating companies is one of the aspects I was referring to - they gather groups of young people from all over through auditions, and produce them as they see fit...which is why there are so many more boy- and girl- bands there than we tend to see in the West. From what I can tell, this audition => production style hasn't been as prominent or successful in the West.

That said, I haven't come across anything about how they went about 'producing' Sheryl (yes, my bad...I haven't actually listened to that particular drama CD story), though Grace obviously skipped the 'audition' step...

========

Moving on to the final episode!

Summary of the Episode 25 commentary
with Nakamura Yuuichi, Endou Aya, Nakajima Megumi and Kawamori Shouji.
Recorded on Valentine's Day, about 10 weeks before the BD was released.
  • Quite a few added scenes (the episode is what, a couple of minutes longer?). Did you pick out any?
  • A LOT happened in this episode, so recording was pretty difficult (if you were late on a line, you might run into the songs).
  • But this kind of confusion - where you don't know what's happening, who your allies and enemies are - that's what a real war would be like.
  • Nakamura and Endou Aya thought Alto had died in 24. Megumi-chan thought the same at first, but then figured 'he'd be fine, he's the main character'. Kawamori: well, in reality, you really wouldn't be so lucky to have lived through all that!
  • But Nakamura thought Ranka would die, because he couldn't figure out how they'd return her to 'our side'. And Megumi-chan thought that maybe, she'd choose death somehow (to save everyone).
  • Mishima was spared by Yoshino, though he will have to face trial.
  • Luca's Ghosts - if he'd released them too soon, before programming them properly, they'd shoot at allies and enemies alike.
  • The earring - whenever it flashes, something, like a song perhaps, is transmitted.
  • Grace is quite a villain - was she ever reasonable? Well, she was a researcher who probably got too caught up in the possibility that her research thesis proposed. Oh, and she may still be alive, because that body isn't where her consciousness is stored, after all.
  • Perhaps one of Alto's problems is that he was too pretty - so everyone thought he never tried his best. Although (Kawamori noted earlier in the commentary that) he has achieved A LOT for a 16/17 year old in a war situation. Same for Michel and Luca.
  • Anata no Oto - Ranka singing of her feelings for Alto. Megumi-chan was happy that she could sing this song on the stage of space.
  • The "superdimensional space" (i.e. where the three-way conversation took place) = 'fold space', and they're connected by fold quartz (earring, virus).

Also, remember back to the radio show discussion in 2010 on that infamous line? Turns out that that definitely wasn't the first time it was brought up: it's just that no one in the English fan community listened to the commentaries (the 9th BD was released in April 2009):
Quote:
"Both of you are my wings" isn't about the love triangle. In fact, everyone (cast* and audience alike) has been deceived by the "supergalactic love story" catchphrase - and even Kawamori-sensei admited to having said it too many times. The unfortunate result is that everyone uses the romance as a base to interpret everything, but the series is, perhaps unexpectedly, not really about the love triangle at all. 'You could even say that the triangle was between humans, Zentradi and the Vajra? Or to put it another way, there were loads of triangles, generally not about romantic love.'
*Nakamura has been grilled about that line so much that he's even mentioned it in connection with developments he doesn't want in another franchise...

They also talk about the movies a lot (irrelevant now that they're out, though one comment was that the triangle was, at that time, a headache to deal with), and about live performances e.g. at the Budoukan, the radio show and the drama CDs (which hadn't been recorded yet. NB: the serious drama tracks can probably be taken as series canon, not so sure about the crack ones). Ah, and there was a bit of fanboying (about Kanaria), fangirling (over the Macross Attack), and reminiscing over Michel.

And reposting the end of the commentary...
Quote:
Nakamura: well, I hope we see a more conclusive end for Alto
Kawamori: do you mean we should end his life then?
Nakamura: no, I mean more with regards to things around him...like, make his thoughts/feelings a bit clearer.
Kawamori: though he's actively fighting, right?
Nakamura: from the things around him
Endou Aya: in his general life, non?
Nakamura: I don't think we have to spell it out for you
(Kawamori is laughing lightly)
Megumi-chan: like, choosing something
Nakamura: yes! I'm looking forward to that. [just a few seconds left!] Everyone, a few words!
Endou Aya: I'm really looking forward to the movies!
Megumi-chan: Same here! Please attach (him) to someone!
Kawamori: Ok, got it!
Nakamura: we got through?
Endou Aya: yay!
======

Answers to a few mysteries re: Sheryl, the V-type virus and Macross Galaxy

From the official fanbook
:
  • (p85) No one knows that Mao's granddaughter is Sheryl, not even Sheryl herself. But just as Cathy was able to find Dr. Mao's notes, perhaps someone will one day find the picture of Sheryl and her mother and connect the dots.
  • Kawamori (p.89): The viruses in Sheryl were able to resonate with Ranka, whereupon they realised that Sheryl was a separate person and autonomously moved down into her stomach. It's not that Ranka moved them there.
  • Yoshino (p.118): The whole situation with Macross Galaxy was a hoax concocted by Grace et al. The real Galaxy is probably still hidden in asteroid belt somewhere.

Lingering Qs (for me, anyway):
  • How did Ranshe know what Aimo was about? Could she communicate with the Vajra?
  • When was Sheryl given those earrings, and if before the time she ended up in the slums, how on earth did she manage to hold on to them?

======

And with that, all done!
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Last edited by karice67; 2011-10-24 at 18:43.
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Old 2011-04-30, 01:19   Link #1296
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[*]Kawamori (p.89): The viruses in Sheryl were able to resonate with Ranka, whereupon they realised that Sheryl was a separate person and autonomously moved down into her stomach. It's not that Ranka moved them there.
So Ranka didn't save Sheryl? Sheryl didn't realize that she wasn't dying after all and Ranka was trying to tell her that?
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Old 2011-04-30, 01:52   Link #1297
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So Ranka didn't save Sheryl? Sheryl didn't realize that she wasn't dying after all and Ranka was trying to tell her that?
Well, to put it simply, Ranka indirectly saved Sheryl. It was probably not her intention, and she probably did not know how.

This makes that slapping scene all the worse.

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Old 2011-04-30, 03:15   Link #1298
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This makes that slapping scene all the worse.
God, it does. I didn't mind the slapping because I thought Ranka was trying to tell her she could be saved and she didn't know how to do it if Sheryl was depressed. It was Ranka way to mimic Sheryl in all she did..... thinking it was for the best. Kind of daft and pointless, but with a good intention.

But if Ranka wasn't even trying to do that...

Thank God the second movie improved this nonsense.
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Old 2011-04-30, 03:20   Link #1299
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Well, to put it simply, Ranka indirectly saved Sheryl. It was probably not her intention, and she probably did not know how.

This makes that slapping scene all the worse.

- Tak
Nah, it's still direct (and intentional)...it's just been explained, rather than being Magic Ranka Virus Hax.
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Old 2011-04-30, 03:47   Link #1300
karice67
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Sheryl didn't realize that she wasn't dying after all and Ranka was trying to tell her that?
Sheryl knew she was dying - I'd argue that she believed she would burn herself out in this final battle. Which is one of the main reasons the dressing room scene in 24 went the way it did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
Nah, it's still direct (and intentional)...it's just been explained, rather than being Magic Ranka Virus Hax.
Yup. Though people not readily accepting the explanation might explain why the movies play out the way they do wrt this.

Kawamori also mentions that there's extra information elsewhere about the intestinal network, like in the novels or 'scientific reports' (whatever he means by that), which might be of interest if you want to think about what it means for the triangle. [But don't ask me, I haven't gotten that far in the novels yet!]

hm...I may be shot for this, but I don't really understand why people get so angry about the slap...

======

Btw...trivia for anyone wants to go back and look: what's the name of the doctor who treated Sheryl/prepared her reports? ^^
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