Macross Frontier 2nd Movie: Sayonara no Tsubasa

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Macross the Ride is set before Frontier, yeah, but it's not really a prequel to it...

Is that like saying Macross Plus is not a sequel to the original Macross?

- Tak

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by Tak

Is that like saying Macross Plus is not a sequel to the original Macross?

- Tak

Hmmm...good point.

But still, I think labeling Macross the Ride as a "prequel" is a little misleading...

[uranium235]

Prequel .... I think it is not a accurate way to say it.

isn't that every happen after Macross crash on the earth?

I think it's good a idea to re-watch the Do You Still Remember The Love for me. catch up with you guys.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Me, I just marvel at the way they seem to continually give AruSheri fans almost exactly what they want to hear, but never quite manage to push it all the way.

There's a certain artfulness to it, I suppose.

Yeah, it's almost Whedonesque.

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

I wouldn't call it trolling. Most people, upon first encountering Romeo and Juliet (to cite just one of countless examples), want the two young lovers to run away and live happily ever after. The fact that that's NOT what happens is what makes the story a classic.

Not saying that Frontier is on that same level (of either artistic merit or tragedy), but generally, listening to what portions of the audience want (even large portions) often spells doom for stories. Much better for the storyteller to do what he or she thinks is best. The audience will follow or it won't, but the work itself will be better off for it.

And yes, I'm dead serious about that, and yes, it's an issue I feel strongly about. I don't believe in giving people what they want, I believe in giving people what I want, and if they like it, too, then that's just gravy.

Hmm, I know what you are talking about, and I would like to refute it, in part. I called that "never giving the fans what they want" "Whedonesque", and with good reason. Joss Whedon had almost perfected the art of withholding the most obvious and desired end goals for his audience in Buffy the Vampire Slayer, often not bringing together couples that were widely desired. He instead opted in most parts for completely different outcomes, which were interesting on their own, yet still quite frustrating. The problem with doing that serially ( and I postulate that Kawamori is starting to do that with things like whisking Alto away with the Vajra queen, which was quite similar to what happened to Shin in Zero ) is that fans start to get cynical about your work after a while, because they know they can expect to be trolled at the end. I think you could also call it "dangling a carrot in front of a horse", with the pay-off never happening.

For me, that is a problem. When unpredictability itself becomes predictable, it is difficult to trust the product of a writer. Which, at least in my case, leeches off a considerable amount of fun from reading/watching it.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Hmm, I know what you are talking about, and I would like to refute it, in part. I called that "never giving the fans what they want" "Whedonesque", and with good reason. Joss Whedon had almost perfected the art of withholding the most obvious and desired end goals for his audience in Buffy the Vampire Slayer, often not bringing together couples that were widely desired. He instead opted in most parts for completely different outcomes, which were interesting on their own, yet still quite frustrating. The problem with doing that serially ( and I postulate that Kawamori is starting to do that with things like whisking Alto away with the Vajra queen, which was quite similar to what happened to Shin in Zero ) is that fans start to get cynical about your work after a while, because they know they can expect to be trolled at the end. I think you could also call it "dangling a carrot in front of a horse", with the pay-off never happening.

For me, that is a problem. When unpredictability itself becomes predictable, it is difficult to trust the product of a writer. Which, at least in my case, leeches off a considerable amount of fun from reading/watching it.

Well...the simple answer to that is: write your own story and end it however YOU see fit.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Well...the simple answer to that is: write your own story and end it however YOU see fit.

Not a valid answer to a complaint about writing styles.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Not a valid answer to a complaint about writing styles.

What do you mean? It's perfectly valid. Whedon has a formula. You think you know a better way. So give it up and strut your stuff!

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Not saying that Frontier is on that same level (of either artistic merit or tragedy), but generally, listening to what portions of the audience want (even large portions) often spells doom for stories. Much better for the storyteller to do what he or she thinks is best. The audience will follow or it won't, but the work itself will be better off for it.

The trick to being an entertaining writer is twofold.

1. Make the reader want what you are planning to do.
2. Make them believe there's a chance it won't happen.

Do that and you will have happy fans who are thrilled that they were "right" but also had enjoyable tension in how (un)sure they were of the outcome.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by musouka

The trick to being an entertaining writer is twofold.

1. Make the reader want what you are planning to do.
2. Make them believe there's a chance it won't happen.

Do that and you will have happy fans who are thrilled that they were "right" but also had enjoyable tension in how (un)sure they were of the outcome.

So again, everyone WANTS Romeo and Juliet to die, but is afraid they'll survive? I don't buy it. Besides, who says the audience has to leave happy?

But back to important topics, the gashapon machine is being less trollish, but still slightly so. Today, it gave me the Ranka-Type YF-29. Not what I wanted, but at least it's one I didn't previously have.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

What do you mean? It's perfectly valid. Whedon has a formula. You think you know a better way. So give it up and strut your stuff!

No, saying "write your own stuff" is just a device to avoid engaging with the actual argument. It's no better than "Oh, yeah?" and "Up yours!".

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

No, saying "write your own stuff" is just a device to avoid engaging with the actual argument. It's no better than "Oh, yeah?" and "Up yours!".

Don't tempt me.

But no, it's not an evasion. It's called "putting your money where your mouth is."

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Don't tempt me.

But no, it's not an evasion. It's called "putting your money where your mouth is."

I'm just one dude in Germany, just as you are one in Japan and the rest of us are elsewhere. Nobody of us is famous and as such we are all only giving comments from the peanut gallery. And it's not wrong nor presumptuous for me to be saying that I personally don't like certain penchants by a certain group of writers.

Also, if you think only "true writer" opinions are valid, where are your widely accredited novels?

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I'm just one dude in Germany, just as you are one in Japan and the rest of us are elsewhere. Nobody of us is famous and as such we are all only giving comments from the peanut gallery. And it's not wrong nor presumptuous for me to be saying that I personally don't like certain penchants by a certain group of writers.

Also, if you think only "true writer" opinions are valid, where are your widely accredited novels?

Hey, I'm not the one criticizing here.

And yeah, while I've published no novels, I have had stories published in literary magazines...for what that's worth (not much).

But hey, if you want to have a discussion about (say) the live-action Transformers, I'll tell you EXACTLY why I thought it was crap, and I'll show you how I would've done it differently, and I'll even explain why my version is better.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Hey, I'm not the one criticizing here.

And yeah, while I've published no novels, I have had stories published in literary magazines...for what that's worth (not much).

But hey, if you want to have a discussion about (say) the live-action Transformers, I'll tell you EXACTLY why I thought it was crap, and I'll show you how I would've done it differently, and I'll even explain why my version is better.

I was criticising a certain school of writing, which avoids having satisfactory pay-offs to their storyline by throwing unexpected curveballs at the audience. Writers of that school are so invested in being "unpredictable" and "non-traditional" that getting such an ending becomes predictable with them. And I expressed how for me that doesn't work very well, because I like a storyline with good foreshadowing and strong emotional links to come to its logical conclusion, because that seems to me to be the better emotional pay-off.

I really don't know how that merits such a dismissive "Why don't you write your own stuff?!?" response.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I was criticising a certain school of writing, which avoids having satisfactory pay-offs to their storyline by throwing unexpected curveballs at the audience. Writers of that school are so invested in being "unpredictable" and "non-traditional" that getting such an ending becomes predictable with them. And I expressed how for me that doesn't work very well, because I like a storyline with good foreshadowing and strong emotional links to come to its logical conclusion, because that seems to me to be the better emotional pay-off.

I really don't know how that merits such a dismissive "Why don't you write your own stuff?!?" response.

Honestly, I'm not being dismissive...but I am trying to stir the budding creator in you.

If you'd rather I stifle your creative juices instead, just let me know.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Honestly, I'm not being dismissive...but I am trying to stir the budding creator in you.

If you'd rather I stifle your creative juices instead, just let me know.

I'm rather occupied writing papers for college at the moment. When I get my magister, have a steady job and then have time to write a book ( probably about socio-economic history ), I'll get back to you. Until then, I'll just keep to writing semi-short postings on message boards.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I'm rather occupied writing papers for college at the moment. When I get my magister, have a steady job and then have time to write a book ( probably about socio-economic history ), I'll get back to you. Until then, I'll just keep to writing semi-short postings on message boards.

Until then, I've got a Ranka YF-29 gashapon...do you want it?

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Until then, I've got a Ranka YF-29 gashapon...do you want it?

I'm fine. I think my only model of something I got is a mini-Minas Tirith, which came with the extended version of Return of the King. Collecting miniatures and stuff really isn't my thing ( hides old trading cards ^^ ).

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

So again, everyone WANTS Romeo and Juliet to die, but is afraid they'll survive? I don't buy it. Besides, who says the audience has to leave happy?

Romeo and Juliet are frankly a terrible example. I haven't met anyone who liked that couple in all seriousness. I read the play WISHING they would die for being so ridiculously stupid (and forced me to read their blandness in high school when King Lear was a superior tragedy). Some people even say the play is a cautionary satire instead of a tragic romance.

The only place I like them was that crack Gonzo Anime Romeo x Juliet because they were the OPPOSITE of their play counterparts.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by Thess

Romeo and Juliet are frankly a terrible example. I haven't met anyone who liked that couple in all seriousness. I read the play WISHING they would die for being so ridiculously stupid (and forced me to read their blandness in high school when King Lear was a superior tragedy). Some people even say the play is a cautionary satire instead of a tragic romance.

The only place I like them was that crack Gonzo Anime Romeo x Juliet because they were the OPPOSITE of their play counterparts.

Again, as I said before, it's merely one of countless examples I could provide. Your suggestion of King Lear is a good one, where for a while in the 18th century, a new, happier ending was provided for the play, and was used for a while...but it didn't last.

Musouka's theory of how to be "an entertaining writer" is interesting, but if you look at the works that have endured throughout the centuries, you'll find very few that fit that mold.