AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2011-04-24, 12:59   Link #21
TinyRedLeaf
. . .
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by frubam View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
I could care less about the tea.
Your username would say otherwise.
Lol. My username has nothing to do with tea. It comes from a pun on my Chinese name, 叶志鸿 (pinyin Ye Zhihong; surname Ye, which means "leaf"), which also sounds like 叶子红, literally "leaf small red". Hence, TinyRedLeaf, which sounds a lot cuter. A colleague invented it for me on a whim some five years ago, and it has since become my permanent online moniker.

That said, there was one show whose forum I regret not participating in at the time of its airing: The House of Five Leaves. Of all series, that was surely the most obvious one for a fellow "Leaf" to support!

Quote:
Originally Posted by frubam View Post
I just watched episode 1, and I'm not sure what I just watched. I really lol'd at Sasuke's serious observations depicted in a comedic fashion, but the whole reason they were fighting flew right over my head. Probably because it's 6am in the morning. I'm not quite seeing the reasons that emphasize these special artifacts are worth fighting and dying for, but that might be attributed to me not knowing anything about the era the show is depicted in or the real-life personae that the chars are based on.
I'll try to break it down so you'd understand what was going on (intense politicking!).

First though, a rebuttal:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon View Post
But even if I wasn't hooked by the subject matter, I'd easily forgive that for the final scene where Oda asks Sasuke his opinion on the warship. That exchange captured the contradiction of Sasuke's position perfectly - how do you serve a master whom you can't wholeheartedly respect?
You've entirely misunderstood what was going on, I feel.

(1)
Sasuke has nothing but utmost respect and admiration for his liege, Oda Nobunaga, the only man he feels deserving to be lord of the realm, not just because of his political and military prowess, but also because of what he feels to be Nobunaga's superior aesthetic tastes. That much was apparent in the opening scene of Ep1, when Sasuke compared Nobunaga's "tasteful" Western attire against the austere but old-fashioned armour of his "boorish" generals.

What transpired at the harbour is a stark portrayal of what makes Nobunaga such a powerful yet frightening man (dubbed the "Sixth Demon Lord" by Matsunaga Hisahide). The warlord is wildly ambitious, far beyond the ken of almost all of his contemporaries. This is a man who, once he has decided on a goal, would stop at absolutely nothing to claim it. For him, every decision is a do-or-die moment. He is the ultimate gambler: He aims to either win everything, or lose everything in the attempt.

But ambition alone is not what makes Nobunaga so powerful he is also, at the same time, an extremely shrewd judge of talent and potential. As far as possible, he strives to surround himself with men as hungry as him for total domination, men like Hisahide and Hashiba Hideyoshi, a former peasant who literally climbed the ranks to become one of Nobunaga's most trusted generals.

These men are wolves who bear nothing but naked ambition and that is exactly the way Nobunaga likes them to be. A man like Nobunaga has zero tolerance for weaklings who lack the courage to stand up for their own beliefs. That was why he executed the impertinent merchant on the spot not because he felt insulted, but because, when challenged, the fool backtracked on his words ("Speak your truth, but never recede!" roared Nobunaga).

And this was also precisely why Nobunaga was so keen to woo the recalcitrant Hisahide back to his side. Hisahide, for all his apparent disloyalty, was an honest broker, a brazenly ambitious man who fought not for the spoils of war, but for his own independence. Nobunaga appreciates such courage, the way a tea master appreciates fine tea.

(2)
What we have here is an obvious conflict of interest: How to subdue a wild bull who refuses to be tamed?

Hence, Nobunaga's "test". He ordered Sasuke fetch him the legendary Hiragumo, knowing full well that Hisahide would never part willingly with his prized possession. This is Nobunaga's typical gamble at work: He'd either win back Hisahide if the plan had succeeded, he would have no choice but to follow the Hiragumo back to Nobunaga's side or he'd lose the general forever, as he knew the cornered warrior had no other option but suicide.

In truth, he didn't care a wit about the Hiragumo. He failed even to recognise it, mistaking it for a pile of junk when Sasuke brought back what was left of it. All he wanted was to secure Hisahide's loyalty, or to get rid of a thorn in his side once and for all.

(3)
Now, I've mentioned that almost no one understands how Nobunaga's mind works. Indeed, almost no one but the crafty, and also obviously ambitious, Hideyoshi.

Among all of Nobunaga's retainers, Hideyoshi was the only one to have guessed his lord's intentions right away. So, being a cunning man, he went about to hatch his own plot to ensure that Hisahide would not return to Azuchi Castle.

Why would he do so? Well, that's because Hisahide was a powerful rival, and Hideyoshi can always do with one less competitor for Nobunaga's favour. Sasuke was actually on the verge of persuading the "old fox" to return ("Does Nobunaga wish to prolong my life so? Or perhaps he wishes to see my death personally," mused Hisahide) but, at the crucial moment, Hideyoshi unexpectedly intervened.

We may not be witness to what then transpired, but it's easy to guess. Hideyoshi likely made it clear that he would not allow Hisahide to live, so the "old fox" might as well die a hero's death by suicide.

Note that Hideyoshi's gambit was not without its risks. The "monkey" presumed to be privy to Nobunaga's plan, a grave act of impudence that nearly got him killed by the warlord on the spot. But here's where Hideyoshi displayed his own brilliance: He forged a poem, claiming it to be Hisahide's last words, an expression of regret that the world was not large enough to contain both his and Nobunaga's ambitions.

Whether or not Nobunaga was fooled, I can't really tell. But it hardly matters, because the daimyo was clearly amused and appreciative of Hideyoshi's ambition and cleverness, and hence forgave the "monkey", and even rewarded him with the plum role of leading the Western campaign against the Mori clan, a series of battles that would later prove to be the turning point of Hideyoshi's political fortunes.

(4)
And finally, a coda.

Throughout all this politicking, take note of how Sasuke was the only man who genuinely appreciated art for art's sake. For all the other men of war, works of art were merely tools, a means to an end.

What makes Hyouge Mono exceptional to me is that it spares nothing to ridicule even Sasuke, precisely for this one virtue.

Nobunaga, Hisahide and Hideyoshi were vain fools who would risk everything for ephemeral power. Similarly, Sasuke is a fool who would risk everything for the sake of an artefact that even tea master Yamanoue Souji had decreed to be a useless treasure; which Nobunaga described as junk; and which we ourselves, as viewers, see as nothing special, just an ugly old lid.

For all his pretensions of being an aesthete, Sasuke was, at that point, no less vain than the most powerful men of his age. It's a quality that endears him to Nobunaga ("Perhaps his life may not end as a mere field messenger."), but will also doom Sasuke if it is not set to balance.

And that, I suspect, is what we'll see happen in Ep3.
TinyRedLeaf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-24, 15:07   Link #22
Guardian Enzo
Seishu's Ace
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Kagurazaka, Tokyo
Also note that when Nobunaga struck down the retainer on the dockside, it was not for his seemingly impudent comment - it was for his refusal to stand by it when confronted. Nobunaga's vanity does not extend to pointless desire for blind worship - if he's anything, he's the ultimate practical man.

I really appreciate an anime depiction of Nobunaga where he's not some cartoonish ogre, but a complex and difficult man (which is what he was). This, for me, is leaps and bounds more interesting and yes, more intense than shows like Sengoku Basara.
Guardian Enzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-24, 16:46   Link #23
Dawnstorm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Austria
Thanks, TinyRedLeaf, for that fascinating post. It's encouraging that I got most of it, but (3) especially helped me understand better. I love the show; it's one of the better ones this season.
Dawnstorm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-24, 21:56   Link #24
aohige
( ಠ_ಠ)
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
Also note that when Nobunaga struck down the retainer on the dockside, it was not for his seemingly impudent comment - it was for his refusal to stand by it when confronted. Nobunaga's vanity does not extend to pointless desire for blind worship - if he's anything, he's the ultimate practical man.

I really appreciate an anime depiction of Nobunaga where he's not some cartoonish ogre, but a complex and difficult man (which is what he was). This, for me, is leaps and bounds more interesting and yes, more intense than shows like Sengoku Basara.
And it's pretty accurate of what we know of Nobunaga.

And also I should add, the "monkey" is always portrayed as cunning, scheming, and that's certainly true.
But Toyotomi Hideyoshi was also very loyal to Oda.
Despite having massive ambition (which for the most come came to fruition later), he did genuinely admire Nobunaga.
I'm from the west, kansai area and I always felt the kantou folks (who for the most part makes anime, manga, etc) unfairly stereotype Hideyoshi negatively all the time. And Nobunaga as well. They were both great men of the era, and deserve to be depicted with respect, like other favorites Shingen, Masamune, Kenshin, Sanada, etc.

That being said, overall I absolutely love the portrayal of warlords in this work.
__________________
aohige is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-24, 22:41   Link #25
frubam
singing heartbreak
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: /人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\
Age: 31
Send a message via AIM to frubam
Does Nobunaga remind anyone of Zorro at the end of the first ep, or is it just me ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
stuff
Thanks for the thorough analysis of the first ep. After reading your post and rewatching it, I see everything you were talking about. I knew nothing about this show, but decided to watch it on a whim. I had no idea it was this complex, but still, it's very interesting =03.

Last edited by frubam; 2011-04-24 at 23:10.
frubam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-25, 01:17   Link #26
Forsaken_Infinity
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: United States of America
Age: 23
Send a message via Skype™ to Forsaken_Infinity
That was a very good post by TinyRedLeaf indeed. There wasn't anything completely alien to me in it but that post does a better job of wording how I feel about this show than I ever could!
Forsaken_Infinity is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-25, 01:36   Link #27
Tempester
AS's "Love Live!" Fanatic
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Listening to "SENTIMENTAL StepS" on repeat
Age: 23
Hyouge Mono - Episodes 1-2

Niiiice. I'm surprised how interesting this show is, given how all the pictures I've seen around the nets hardly make it appealing at all.

On the technical side, the background art and keyframes of this anime are gorgeous to look at with their level of detail. This can be attributed to the manga's original art but I respect Bee Train for adapting the art to animation so masterfully. The music varies between intense and relaxing, almost jazzy.

As I know very little about Japanese history, it's fascinating for me to see the culture, relations and habits of Japanese warriors during the Sengoku Era. The plot demands a lot of attention but fortunately isn't difficult to understand without historical knowledge, and I'm grateful for that. And I'm liking this thread already despite the small number of posts. So much historical infodumping.

But the real appeal to Hyouge Mono is how we see Sasuke and the other men juggle and balance their warrior's pride against their aesthetic tastes. It's like watching a hardcore anime otaku trying to be the best salaryman in his company. I don't know if the manga was meant to be a comedy, but I found myself laughing at the silly facial expressions and overreactions in this anime much more than I ever did at Soft Tennis and Nichijou, which are supposed to be comedies.

This anime was a pleasant surprise, and I'm very glad to have picked it up. Thumbs up to Huzzah for subbing this against the tides.
__________________
MyAnimeList
- - - - -
Visual novel list
- - - - -
Recently completed anime:
Girls und Panzer: Kore ga Hontou no Anzio-sen Desu!
Sakura Trick
Love Live! School Idol Project 2nd Season
Selector Infected WIXOSS
Mikakunin de Shinkoukei
Nagi no Asukara
Tempester is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-25, 07:33   Link #28
SeijiSensei
AS Oji-kun
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Mucking about
Age: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by frubam View Post
Does Nobunaga remind anyone of Zorro at the end of the first ep, or is it just me ?
It looks to me like he's affected the style of European nobles. I tried to find some examples of contemporary European dress, particularly Portuguese styles, but they're hard to come by. Those sorts of plumed hats do appear in the Renaissance garb I saw.
__________________
SeijiSensei is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-25, 11:58   Link #29
Guardian Enzo
Seishu's Ace
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Kagurazaka, Tokyo
You are correct, those are Portuguese noble garments he's wearing. It was one of his known affectations.
Guardian Enzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-25, 12:05   Link #30
Hooves
♣~Sleepy~♣
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Xanadu
Age: 20
Send a message via Skype™ to Hooves
I was always wondering why Nobunaga was wearing that style of clothing then. Didn't know it was one of his affectations. I'm more curious about the helmet he wore with the twirled horns.
__________________
MyAnimeList (Hoovesahoy)
Avatar from: Hooves
Signature from: Patchy
Hooves is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-25, 12:28   Link #31
testtesttest
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
The horned helmet of Henry VIII
http://www.flickr.com/photos/iannels...46546/sizes/l/
http://amazingdata.com/the-horned-helmet/
testtesttest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-25, 22:13   Link #32
frubam
singing heartbreak
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: /人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\
Age: 31
Send a message via AIM to frubam
Wow, that's some pretty bold stuff, readily but reluctantly sacrificing the woman you love for the sake of your ambitions. Still, I loved the way it was portrayed. Usually, the woman would 'get in the way at the last second', but Osen willingly giving up her life for her husband was a very admirable and powerful display of her affection toward Sasuke. You just don't get that in most romance these days(then again, usually one's life is not at stake).

I had to wonder why the hell didn't Sasuke just kill off Araki and take the tea bowl too? I understand he was shocked at the display of such grandeur, but he could have easily taken his life and caught two birds with one stone. It's not like Nobunaga would know that he took anything. Did he feel it such a waste to kill a man with his sense of aesthetics?

I'm assuming that the name of the bowl and Araki's name is not a coincidence.

The ending was also captivating because of the cliffhanger D0=. I wonder does Soueki know about what Sasuke did? Perhaps Araki sold Soueki one of the bowls he carried off, but that still wouldn't explain Soueki knowing about it. Then again, if Araki were to mention to Soueki that he escaped by giving the bowl to someone who was an aesthete, maybe he put 2&2 together. Soueki seems like he is quite keen in noticing details such as that. Of course, it could be a coincidence, but with chars this complex, I'm not putting anything past them.
frubam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-27, 15:13   Link #33
SeijiSensei
AS Oji-kun
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Mucking about
Age: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by testtesttest View Post
I've been doing a little searching to see how Nobunaga could have known about Henry's helmet. I can't find anything about it. Most queries about Nobunaga's helment return a picture like this:
Spoiler for size:

Here's a brief history of Henry's horned helmet from the Royal Armouries:

Quote:
The 'horned helmet'
Dates from 1511–14 | Austrian, Innsbruck | Object number: IV.22

This helmet originally formed part of the court armour of Holy Roman Emperor Maximilian I and was made by Konrad Seusenhofer.

Holy Roman Emperor Maximilian I presented Henry VIII with the armour that included this extraordinary ‘Horned helmet’ in 1514. This helmet was chosen as the symbol of the Royal Armouries in Leeds because of its extraordinary appearance and association with Henry VIII.
Henry died in 1547 when Nobunaga was just thirteen. Nobunaga's Wikipedia article does say he collected European art, armaments, and armour and was one of the first Japanese to wear Western clothing. How he learned about Henry's mask, and how he came to have a replica made, still remains a mystery to me. I guess I might actually have to read a biography rather than just rely on online sources.

Edit: Well, this looks comprehensive, but I'm not willing to spend $95! Maybe a trip to the library is in order.

I did buy used versions of two of the Nobunaga's Ambition games. Lot less than $95, too.
__________________

Last edited by SeijiSensei; 2011-04-27 at 16:16. Reason: aah, commas
SeijiSensei is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-29, 19:36   Link #34
Guardian Enzo
Seishu's Ace
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Kagurazaka, Tokyo
If the opportunity ever presented itself, I sure would love to play poker with Sasuke. Worst poker face ever.
Guardian Enzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-29, 23:52   Link #35
TinyRedLeaf
. . .
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
If the opportunity ever presented itself, I sure would love to play poker with Sasuke. Worst poker face ever.
Wuss. If you're going to play, might as well play against the best: Akechi Mitsuhide.

==========

By the way, many thanks for the kind words I've received for my previous post.

While watching Ep3, I got the feeling that viewers may again be left in the dark about what's going on. It's not that difficult this time to figure it out, though. For a start, just google "kamquat" Akechi Mitsuhide. You'd then understand the significance of him not using Nobunaga's bequeathed tea kettle at the celebration dinner.

As for Nobunaga's wild ambition for foreign conquests, I must say it's a surprise for me too. I don't recall reading that he had such goals during his lifetime. In the end, Japan did invade Korea (the Joseon kingdom), but it would not be under Nobunaga's command.

Unfortunately, I don't know much about Japanese tea ceremony to explain the intricacies behind Sasuke's tea-room encounter with tea master Soueki Sen. A few things to point out: the tea room was a relatively modern design for that era, from what I recall. Because of the way the door is designed, the individual is forced to "bow" as he entered and, as Sasuke observed, he couldn't take his sword with him, and that could be construed as an insult to warriors.

I would have liked to learn more about Soueki's approach to tea ceremony as well. Take note of his countenance, especially his eyes — it resembles the face of the Buddha (whose visage appears in Nobunaga's "throne room" later in the episode). The suggestion here, of course, is that Soueki has achieved some kind of Zen-like calm through his mastery of tea ritual. This is a familiar theme in Japanese culture and it has close ties with all forms of Japanese martial arts. So, by mastering tea ceremony, Sasuke may indeed find the "fork that binds a warrior and aesthete". We'll have to wait further to see how he achieves this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mizuki_tohru View Post
Many of depiction of "Hyouge Mono" is based on the historical fact. If history of Japan is investigated, all the future fate of Sasuke is known. Although I knew beforehand about Furuta Oribe's, i.e., him, whole life, the tale is still filled to charm.
Sasuke is Samurai and Otaku. At the start time of a tale at least, he is only the teacup otaku smeared with the desire. This situation changes with encounter with Rikyu. He himself becomes an artist and becomes an artist's patron. Sasuke gropes for Samurai-oriented art.

Speaking of anime, I cannot see it. Broadcast channels are NHK BS, broadcasting satellite channel. This is not free broadcast. It is unthinkable to make a contract of paid broadcasting only for Hyouge Mono.
Welcome to the thread. I presume you're Japanese? It's interesting what you've said about this show not being available on free-to-air channels. Does that affect its popularity in Japan?
TinyRedLeaf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-30, 08:20   Link #36
SeijiSensei
AS Oji-kun
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Mucking about
Age: 64
This series has been removed at request

http://beta.animesuki.com/series/Hyouge_Mono

I wonder who it might be. The usual suspects are Media Factory, Bandai, Kadokawa and Funimation. I don't see any indication one of them was involved in this production.

Why would they care so much about this show compared to the dozens of other shows being subbed right now? Reverse importation? Can't Japanese viewers get raws without having to use English-language version? I thought fansubbers used existing raws rather than having a capper in Japan. Perhaps because it's on NHK-BS2? It's hardly the first show from that service to be fansubbed. Moribito aired on BS2 as I recall. Hyouge Mono has the same production team as Shinrei Tantei Yakumo, but it's still listed here. Kobato is another BS2 show that still appears on the AS list.

How can fansubs for Hyouge Mono not increase the likelihood that people will buy licensed English-language copies of this show? I know I would.

Episode three really highlighted for me what a superb score Otani Kou has written for this show. The music that accompanies Sasuke's climb to the keep was especially remarkable -- lilting and modern yet somehow appropriate to Sasuke's introduction to Nobunaga's world of artistic wonders. Soon thereafter we're treated to a much darker and more martial piece as Nobunaga surveys his lands from the balcony.

I'm a little puzzled by mizuki_tohru's comment about Sasuke. Is he, too, an historical figure? I rather imagined him as a fictionalized onlooker.
__________________

Last edited by SeijiSensei; 2011-04-30 at 08:56.
SeijiSensei is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-30, 08:44   Link #37
testtesttest
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
NHK-Premium
Because it's a pay broadcast?
testtesttest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-30, 09:16   Link #38
SeijiSensei
AS Oji-kun
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Mucking about
Age: 64
I discussed the pay-channel aspect in edits to my post above.

However, I had one other question from episode three: Why does Sasuke apologize to Osen during the tea ceremony with Master Soueki? Is it because Sasuke fears he's about to be executed? The falling petal in the next scene suggests that might be the case.

I also found the sudden use of "Governor" when Sasuke is addressed a bit disconcerting. I felt like I had missed some promotion scene along the way. Is this just a different translation of the same honorific used to address him before, or is there some new Japanese term being used in that scene? Sometimes I can go to a fansub group's website to see if they discussed translation issues, but since Huzzah doesn't have one, I'm left in the lurch.
__________________
SeijiSensei is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-30, 09:23   Link #39
TinyRedLeaf
. . .
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
Episode three really highlighted for me what a superb score Otani Kou has written for this show. The music that accompanies Sasuke's climb to the keep was especially remarkable -- lilting and modern yet somehow appropriate to Sasuke's introduction to Nobunaga's world of artistic wonders. Soon thereafter we're treated to a much darker and more martial piece as Nobunaga surveys his lands from the balcony.
It's Kou Otani? Wow, I didn't recognise his style. I remember him more for his Haibane Renmei and Ico scores, which I loved. Hyouge Mono's tracks are a bit too zany for my tastes, though I agree they fit the scenes well. I'm a much bigger fan of the jazzy OP and ED, Bowl Man and Kizuna respectively.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
I'm a little puzzled by mizuki_tohru's comment about Sasuke. Is he, too, an historical figure? I rather imagined him as a fictionalized onlooker.
Furuta Sasuke is fictional, I believe, but he is apparently based on a real person mizuki_tohru mentioned: Furuta Oribe.
TinyRedLeaf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-04-30, 09:23   Link #40
TheForsaken
Winter is coming
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
I also found the sudden use of "Governor" when Sasuke is addressed a bit disconcerting. I felt like I had missed some promotion scene along the way. Is this just a different translation of the same honorific used to address him before, or is there some new Japanese term being used in that scene? Sometimes I can go to a fansub group's website to see if they discussed translation issues, but since Huzzah doesn't have one, I'm left in the lurch.
It's just different translation of the same thing, and I found that choice really weird. Why "governor"? He doesn't govern anything.
He's simply called "Furuta-sama", which is a generic term to call anyone in a privileged position (he is Nobunaga's vassal after all)
__________________
TheForsaken is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
historical, tea

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:46.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.