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Old 2011-04-26, 12:51   Link #841
SagaraSouske
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And that shows QB's race do not have mastery over the system or emotion conversion technology. They have to abide by certain rules when using the technology or the system, and once it is established, they cannot change it. Only entities like Madoka Goddess using Wish granted by system can rewrite the rules.
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Old 2011-04-26, 13:07   Link #842
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From Kyubei's consistent usage of "lighting" the soul gem, i believe that they aren't the ones who fufil the wish. All they do is to light the candle.

How big the candle is, is how powerful and far reaching the wish is. Obviously in Madoka's case, its size is gigantic.

Why would Kyubei light a candle as massive as Madoka's? Again from Kyubei's consistent position, they don't care how big the candle is because they think the wish will be small or logical (probably Kyubei would be thinking the wish is "i wish to stop WN") and in the end on witch transformation, the payoff will be there.

Given how stupified Kyubei's VA made him sound, obviously the logical incubators never considered such an illogical wish but as the process of lighting had already started, Kyubei may not have been capable of stopping it
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Old 2011-04-28, 07:08   Link #843
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Originally Posted by Dark Wing View Post
Which means that this isn't a 100% accurate prediction of what might have happened in the near future because certain variables were not taken into account for example:

- How long each girl would be able to live before death or witch hood.

- How many witches and/or familiars would each girl be able to exterminate before death or witch hood.

- How many girls can be contracted at a time vs. the witches growth rate.

So while it's safe to say that one super power witch would indeed be able to destroy all mankind the chances of this occurring is very slim at best.
The Witch growth rate would always be positive, because
1. Witches make familiars that become new Witches.
and
2. QB works as hard as he can to pick girls who are more likely to become witches.

Since QB desires more witches to get the energy, the Witch population would never be under control. This wouldn't be a problem if QB deliberately try to do thing sustainably by making sure there isn't too many Witches, but he does not.

QB is literally pushing the system to the brink by his actions, not so much deliberately but because he doesn't care. His is not God or Devil, he doesn't care about humanity enough to be either. Humans are just a statistic to him.

The ending took the choice from QB. Now, the new system means he needs Magical Girls to survive as long as they can in order to kill more monsters. There is no longer a conflict of interest like back in the old world.

EDIT: Finally, a proper term to describe Madoka as a show. A show about a contract dealer who had a conflict of interest with his customers.
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Old 2011-04-28, 09:23   Link #844
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^ and they nailed him down in the end, which doesn't happen TOO often in reality.
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Old 2011-04-28, 21:34   Link #845
novalysis
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Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
And that shows QB's race do not have mastery over the system or emotion conversion technology. They have to abide by certain rules when using the technology or the system, and once it is established, they cannot change it. Only entities like Madoka Goddess using Wish granted by system can rewrite the rules.
I'm going to throw out a speculation here that the Puella Magi system has been rewritten several times before Madoka . And the conditions that force the Incubators to abide by rules were caused by previous wishes of Puella Magi's of Madoka's power , in one time-line. The initial system might have been a million times worse. The Incubators might have literally treated humans at cattle at one point , until a human rewrote the entire system in hopes of making it better.
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Old 2011-04-28, 21:39   Link #846
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Originally Posted by novalysis View Post
I'm going to throw out a speculation here that the Puella Magi system has been rewritten several times before Madoka . And the conditions that force the Incubators to abide by rules were caused by previous wishes of Puella Magi's of Madoka's power , in one time-line. The initial system might have been a million times worse. The Incubators might have literally treated humans at cattle at one point , until a human rewrote the entire system in hopes of making it better.
It's theoretically possible, but I consider a system rewrite wish prior to Madoka's implausible. First of all Kyubey hints that the system has been the same since they first started using it (though to be fair, he had no reason to outright state that it had been changed by a past Puella Magi, either). I'm guessing that any perceived rules aren't so much rules as they are requirements; Kyubey can't force a girl to make her wish because then her heart wouldn't necessarily be in it, which might affect the outcome of the wish, or something.

Also, the idea of a past Puella Magi having power comparable to timeline 5 Madoka's is extremely unlikely. Most notably Kyubey has said several times that she has the most potential of any girl he has ever met, so while a girl with the power to rewrite parts of the system might not be impossible, one with the power to rewrite it on the level that Madoka did probably is impossible.
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Old 2011-04-28, 22:03   Link #847
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Originally Posted by Akashin View Post
It's theoretically possible, but I consider a system rewrite wish prior to Madoka's implausible. First of all Kyubey hints that the system has been the same since they first started using it (though to be fair, he had no reason to outright state that it had been changed by a past Puella Magi, either). I'm guessing that any perceived rules aren't so much rules as they are requirements; Kyubey can't force a girl to make her wish because then her heart wouldn't necessarily be in it, which might affect the outcome of the wish, or something.
If the system was rewritten in a similar way than Madoka's wish rewrote it, then Kyuubey wouldn't know whether that happened or not. After Madoka rewrote everything Kyuubey had no memory of Madoka and her wish, and the reason why Puella Magi just disappeared after spending all their magical energy was a mistery for him.
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Originally Posted by Akashin View Post
Also, the idea of a past Puella Magi having power comparable to timeline 5 Madoka's is extremely unlikely. Most notably Kyubey has said several times that she has the most potential of any girl he has ever met, so while a girl with the power to rewrite parts of the system might not be impossible, one with the power to rewrite it on the level that Madoka did probably is impossible.
Uhmm, Kyuubey did say something like "A magical girl's potential depends on the burden she bears. Madoka's burden is fit for a queen or a Messiah." I wonder how poweful Cleopatra as a magical girl was. Still you are most likely right, I doubt any other PM could be compared to Madoka, unless there was someone like Homura in the past playing with time.
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Old 2011-04-28, 22:14   Link #848
Akashin
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Originally Posted by zRyuu View Post
If the system was rewritten in a similar way than Madoka's wish rewrote it, then Kyuubey wouldn't know whether that happened or not. After Madoka rewrote everything Kyuubey had no memory of Madoka and her wish, and the reason why Puella Magi just disappeared after spending all their magical energy was a mistery for him.
This isn't necessarily true. The reason he didn't have any memories of what Madoka did was because her wish involved all but ripping apart the universe and reconstructing it to fit her wish. Such a thing may not be required of a smaller scale change to the system (such as a wish saying, for example, "I wish that girls cannot be forced to make a wish," to follow the given example), and thus it is entirely possible for him to keep his memories of such a wish.

Still, your point has merit, and I can't entirely dismiss it. If any change to the system requires a similar reconstruction (which in fact all but nullifies the possibility of anybody but Madoka making such a wish in the first place), then he would indeed not have any recollection of it.

Quote:
Uhmm, Kyuubey did say something like "A magical girl's potential depends on the burden she bears. Madoka's burden is fit for a queen or a Messiah." I wonder how poweful Cleopatra as a magical girl was. Still you are most likely right, I doubt any other PM could be compared to Madoka, unless there was someone like Homura in the past playing with time.
I'm more or less banking on the idea that Madoka's potential was indeed God-like; which is to say that it is probably impossible for a person to naturally have so much potential without interference similar to Homura's. While the likes of Cleopatra may come close to that, and would probably be quite capable of an aforementioned lesser change to the system, I doubt they could naturally reach the same level as Madoka.
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Old 2011-04-29, 01:50   Link #849
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I no longer necessarily consider Kyubey a villain, if I ever did. I know it's been said before the finale, but the fact that Kyubey can't relate to human emotions just occurred to me, when he compared Puella Magi to cattle. Kyubey... I love Kyubey.
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Old 2011-04-29, 03:19   Link #850
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Old 2011-04-29, 06:35   Link #851
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Quote:
but the fact that Kyubey can't relate to human emotions just occurred to me, when he compared Puella Magi to cattle. Kyubey... I love Kyubey.
Lol, and for me it was the first time I actually wanted to punch him in the face. Especially since he said it rather soon after the funeral scene, and Sayaka's photo adorned with flowers was still hovering before my eyes...
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Old 2011-05-01, 13:15   Link #852
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Something I never really caught on to is how exactly Kyubey gets around to collecting the energy. The anti-entropy energy is released when PM turn into witches, right? Are the grief seeds like everlasting batteries? That means Kyubey counts on the PM to collect them and feed them to him once they're crictical...

But a whole bunch of energy was released when Sayaka transformed, is that what Kyubey was talking about? Does it not matter where the energy goes, only that it's released into the universe? Sorry if this was obvious to others, I just didn't get this one part.
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Old 2011-05-01, 13:42   Link #853
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Originally Posted by *Osaka*Fan* View Post
Something I never really caught on to is how exactly Kyubey gets around to collecting the energy. The anti-entropy energy is released when PM turn into witches, right? Are the grief seeds like everlasting batteries? That means Kyubey counts on the PM to collect them and feed them to him once they're crictical...

But a whole bunch of energy was released when Sayaka transformed, is that what Kyubey was talking about? Does it not matter where the energy goes, only that it's released into the universe? Sorry if this was obvious to others, I just didn't get this one part.
It seems pretty certain that he said he was collecting refers to the energy released upon transformation (though there were some people, I can't fully remember whom, who theorized that the Grief Seeds themselves were the energy he is after). As far as collecting it goes, since we never see any direct hint of him needing to physically collect the energy, it's probably safe to assume just releasing the energy is enough.
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Old 2011-05-01, 14:49   Link #854
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The energy collection system is probably built into the Soul Gem "cage" itself. As it shatters, the energy is transmitted to whatever the Incubators use as a receiver for it.
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Old 2011-05-01, 15:45   Link #855
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Given their goal really is just to delay/stop entropy, then the energy simply being created from the process and then released into the universe is all that is necessary for that goal, so there isn't a need for Kyubey to collect it. While Kyubey assumed keeps "collecting/eating" the used up grief seeds, because witches being revived doesn't create energy the same way as the transformation does, thus it wouldn't be in his interest to allow it.
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Old 2011-05-01, 21:17   Link #856
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That's an interesting idea. But Kyubei explicitly says that the Incubators collect the energy. So, your idea doesn't fit.
Further more, he has a set quota. Simply releasing the energy into the universe would require constant infusions to keep entropy at bay. It's possible that they need X amount of energy to "charge up" some mechanism that can then hold entropy at bay indefinitely.
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Old 2011-05-01, 21:44   Link #857
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
That's an interesting idea. But Kyubei explicitly says that the Incubators collect the energy. So, your idea doesn't fit.
Further more, he has a set quota. Simply releasing the energy into the universe would require constant infusions to keep entropy at bay. It's possible that they need X amount of energy to "charge up" some mechanism that can then hold entropy at bay indefinitely.
/rant on why the don't need to "collect" energy for their objective:
The death of the universe via Entropy occurs due to the assumed expanding universe causing a point in time where the density of energy is so low that nothing is able to happen anymore[0 K] in the universe, thus "The Heat of the universe" via entropy; which is completely delayed by there simply more energy in the universe, so the idea of them needing some device to do it doesn't really make sense, as if it was powered by some amount of energy they wouldn't need the magical girl system; they need the emotion energy because it creates energy that shouldn't exist by the laws of entropy since it states that energy can't be created, or destroyed. Which delays the heat death of universe .

Thus Kyubey probably says "collects" because it's easier to explain to the girls that way, since we're never shown any actual hints of kyubey collecting during the series.
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Old 2011-05-01, 22:31   Link #858
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If that was the concept he was trying to convey, he could just as easily get it across with the word "release" instead.
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Old 2011-05-01, 22:54   Link #859
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If that was the concept he was trying to convey, he could just as easily get it across with the word "release" instead.
He if mentioned the energy release from the transformation into a witch, then he would have given away something he didn't want to tell the girls, while saying "collecting" would be a clever use of words to explain it while keeping the truth hidden. Which makes sense to me since Kyubey commonly spoke in half-truths.
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Old 2011-05-01, 23:37   Link #860
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He if mentioned the energy release from the transformation into a witch, then he would have given away something he didn't want to tell the girls, while saying "collecting" would be a clever use of words to explain it while keeping the truth hidden. Which makes sense to me since Kyubey commonly spoke in half-truths.
I think Jimmy C's argument was that he still uses the term "collecting" (I believe the exact word is "gather", but it implies the same thing) when explaining everything to Madoka in episode 9, when using something like "collecting" as a half-truth had become a moot point.
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