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Old 2011-04-30, 07:22   Link #221
Liddo-kun
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
Also, even if there were adults who believed them, they would be powerless against Witches. While conventional modern weapons can damage Witches, the only reason Homura can get away with it is because her ability allows to accurately place every shot. Normal adults won't get that luxury.
I agree, Homura being able to hit accurately with conventional weapons using her power is the key on why those weapons were effective. For example, if a reasonable number of well-armed soldiers went against Charlotte, I think they stand a chance to kill her. But she'd be able to kill / eat some of them too. Using her power, Homura was able to trick Charlotte into eating the C4, making it an easy victory for her.

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Originally Posted by sa547 View Post
I have forgiven this girl from all sins she committed in the past.
I think Sayaka is a good person who's up for helping people.
It's just too bad, she's stubborn and made some bad decisions along the way.

Last edited by Liddo-kun; 2011-05-02 at 12:09.
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Old 2011-05-02, 05:10   Link #222
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I don't think Sayaka needs for be forgiven for anything, as I don't think she's done anything wrong.

She wished for the guy she liked to recover. Sure, deep down, she wanted him to recover, because she wanted to be with him. But just because selfishness was attached to her wish, that doesn't make it a bad thing. Love is a selfish thing. But, that aside, she really wanted to play the part of the selfless hero too.

Moreover, she had to deal with a lot of stuff, beginning with Kyouko styling on her, Homura being shady and then the whole deal with the Soul Gem. If that wasn't enough, the guy she made her wish for (i.e. the person for whom she put himself in a very dangerous situation and, as she eventually learned, sold her soul for) didn't pay her any attention and then, afterwards, he seemed to have started dating with one of her best friends.

And, to make things even worse, all of this stuff happened in the span of 2-3 days. Sayaka never had a time catch a breath, clear her thoughts and be able to think things through.

I think she really gets a lot of undeserved hate.
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Old 2011-05-02, 11:14   Link #223
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I don't think Sayaka needs for be forgiven for anything, as I don't think she's done anything wrong.

She wished for the guy she liked to recover. Sure, deep down, she wanted him to recover, because she wanted to be with him. But just because selfishness was attached to her wish, that doesn't make it a bad thing. Love is a selfish thing. But, that aside, she really wanted to play the part of the selfless hero too.

Moreover, she had to deal with a lot of stuff, beginning with Kyouko styling on her, Homura being shady and then the whole deal with the Soul Gem. If that wasn't enough, the guy she made her wish for (i.e. the person for whom she put himself in a very dangerous situation and, as she eventually learned, sold her soul for) didn't pay her any attention and then, afterwards, he seemed to have started dating with one of her best friends.

And, to make things even worse, all of this stuff happened in the span of 2-3 days. Sayaka never had a time catch a breath, clear her thoughts and be able to think things through.

I think she really gets a lot of undeserved hate.
It was actually roughly a week (from contracting to turning into a Witch, that is), but that it all came much too quickly to let her handle it properly is still completely true. I think most people are just harping on things like her going insane on Elsa Marie and soon after behaving similarly toward Madoka which, while definitely a poor choice, is explainable in both cases.
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Old 2011-05-02, 12:25   Link #224
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Moreover, she had to deal with a lot of stuff, beginning with Kyouko styling on her, Homura being shady and then the whole deal with the Soul Gem. If that wasn't enough, the guy she made her wish for (i.e. the person for whom she put himself in a very dangerous situation and, as she eventually learned, sold her soul for) didn't pay her any attention and then, afterwards, he seemed to have started dating with one of her best friends.
Though I'm just wondering. Sayaka is not the only one who've had traumatic experiences. For example, Kyoko's father went insane and murdered the family. Homura had to repeat frustrating experiences over and over. But Kyoko and Homu coped better with their problems.

Just my speculation, Sayaka's character was used to portray the things that can happen if you make wrong decisions.
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Old 2011-05-02, 12:33   Link #225
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Though I'm just wondering. Sayaka is not the only one who've had traumatic experiences. For example, Kyoko's father went insane and murdered the family. Homura had to repeat frustrating experiences over and over. But Kyoko and Homu coped better with their problems.

Just my speculation, Sayaka's character was used to portray the things that can happen if you make wrong decisions.
While I don't disagree with your speculation, there is a dramatic difference between Sayaka and Kyoko/Homura that makes it difficult to compare. In the case of Kyoko we have somebody who was already used to suffering so, although the death of her family is in no way not traumatic or tragic, she was far better equipped to handle it than the likes of Sayaka. And in Homura's case we have the perfect example of how you can hold on if you have something to fight for; we saw signs of fatigue in Homura several times, but since she had something to keep fighting for she was able to get back up. An important point for Sayaka is that she never found this; she made her wish while ignoring the advice to the contrary that she had received, so when things started going downhill all around her, she was poorly equipped to pick herself back up again.
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Old 2011-05-02, 13:23   Link #226
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It should also be taken into account that in Kyouko's case, "coping" is a relative term. Her own terrible experience apparently changed her character and outlook drastically - it's been hinted enough that before the familycide incident she was actually an idealist hero figure like Sayaka. Not to mention that for a priest's daughter becoming a kind of social darwinist in her professional MO seems like a long road to go, unless something kicked her all the way down. And we pretty much know what did. So while Kyouko managed to live on after those events, I really can't be sure she didn't go through the same BSoD series as Sayaka. No matter how durable, finding your whole family dead (without discussing the possibility of not just finding, but having been KILLED together with them and surviving only due to the soul gem left intact) is meant to hit HARD.
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Old 2011-05-02, 23:21   Link #227
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The problem is, we're comparing far too many things.

To begin with, not all people can deal with emotional issues equally. What for some people can be a breeze of wind, for others may be a hurricane. So, just because Homura and Kyouko could cope with things doesn't mean Sayaka could too. In addition, notice that Kyouko and Homura bent their morals a lot. And by a lot, I mean a lot. Kyouko became a moral relativist compared to the idealist she used to be, and Homura ended up similarly with Madoka being her only concern. Sayaka, unlike them, tried to stick to her ideals. I'm sure that, had she bent her morals as well, she wouldn't have broken either.

Another problem was their respective situations. Homura had enough time to consider things. Sure, she had to deal with a lot of crap, like being the first one to learn about the reality behind the mahou shoujo system, to mercy killing her most important person. But she had the time to settle down, and she also had the capacity to redo things. Kyouko also had time to deal with things after they happened. This is a big issue, because Sayaka never had such thing. All things kept coming at her, one right after another.
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Old 2011-05-02, 23:30   Link #228
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I'm sure that, had she bent her morals as well, she wouldn't have broken either.
This is debatable, since her refusal to bend was only one part of what ended up destroying her. She still had to deal with the fact that she'd basically sold her life and soul for a guy that didn't care about her (at least not romantically, as she had hoped). Short of becoming a virtual clone of Kyoko, I don't see her overcoming those issues just by bending on her self-imposed heroism.
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Old 2011-05-03, 03:06   Link #229
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This is Sayaka as i see her

Sayaka: I made this choice to help people, not because i wanted someone to feel indebted to me
Sayaka: I'll never regret my choice
Sayaka: No it wasn't because i made the wrong choice, it was your fault
Sayaka: I HAD to make this choice because you didn't dare
Sayaka: I said you were a shitty person when i met you, and i'm NOT wrong that you were a shitty person

Lying to youself is very common in life. Martyr syndrome is not as common but far from rare. Only at the end did she understand.
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Old 2011-05-03, 04:16   Link #230
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This is debatable, since her refusal to bend was only one part of what ended up destroying her. She still had to deal with the fact that she'd basically sold her life and soul for a guy that didn't care about her (at least not romantically, as she had hoped). Short of becoming a virtual clone of Kyoko, I don't see her overcoming those issues just by bending on her self-imposed heroism.
It isn't just her desire to be heroic, but also her desire to be selfless. Remember her reaction when she found out the truth behind her Soul Gem. She basically looked down on herself and didn't confess because she didn't think she was worthy of being loved any more, since she wouldn't have the violin boy date a zombie. Had she decided to indulge herself, she could have simply not cared about that and confess to him. Of course, whether he'd have returned her feelings or not, is something we've got no idea about. Of course, she could also have done as Kyouko told her, and make the boy hers by force.
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Old 2011-05-03, 07:17   Link #231
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I have forgiven this girl from all sins she committed in the past.
That's harsh....overly so....she's naive...innocent and too headstrong for her own sake. Kind of an ass at times but that doesn't make her a sinner...
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Old 2011-05-03, 09:32   Link #232
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It isn't just her desire to be heroic, but also her desire to be selfless. Remember her reaction when she found out the truth behind her Soul Gem. She basically looked down on herself and didn't confess because she didn't think she was worthy of being loved any more, since she wouldn't have the violin boy date a zombie. Had she decided to indulge herself, she could have simply not cared about that and confess to him. Of course, whether he'd have returned her feelings or not, is something we've got no idea about. Of course, she could also have done as Kyouko told her, and make the boy hers by force.
Ah, we took her reaction to the Soul Gem reveal two different ways then, since I've never really looked at it as a reflection of her selfless nature. I've always looked at it as her being more concerned with being a zombie in the first place than preventing Kyosuke from dating a zombie. Assuming you're right, and you may well be, getting over that may indeed go a long way to helping her not snap. Of course there's still the Witch reveal but, aside from comparing it with what we know of Sayaka, we can't really open that can of worms on her since we've never seen what her reaction might be (beyond disbelief at the notion of it being true, which doesn't really count).
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Old 2011-05-04, 06:51   Link #233
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Regardless of the true subtext of her wish and her expectations, it's pretty apparent she did want to be a hero, someone like Mami. She already knew how it might end, but that only painted the job more heroic. But everyone needs a reason to become a hero, simply "peace on Earth" is no more than package. Sayaka's reason was to heal the guy she liked and give him back his dream and music. I doubt she'd ever pictured him being openly grateful to her since there was no way of ever letting him know what was behind his miraculous recovery. But I doubt she'd ever considered the possibility of them being apart either. She was hostile to Kyouko because her modus operandi contradicted how Sayaka pictured being a Puella Magi (and she basically inherited all her views on the subject from Mami). Only after episode 6 did everything went down, since Sayaka learnt she had paid FAR MORE than she had evr expected. All this corpse talk may be wrong from our point of view, but we didn't exaclty have our souls extracted and existing separately in a compressed form. Sayaka's reaction is pretty justified (although it wouldn't hurt if Madoka in episode 7 just said "can't embrace him with this body? you're hugging ME with this body at the moment, and there don't seem to be any problems with that!"). Shje lost confidence and self-esteem. And then Hitomi had to nail it down. Sayaka gave up on Kamijou, but through that she gave up on the very reason she had become a Puella Magi for. It was only natural that she consequently lost all the will to fight and will to live. Her only biggest fault is failing to find something to hold on to (and even discarding her friend as that possible something, although she's shown to regret it immediately). Nonetheless, she refused to give up on her ideals till the very end when despair gobbled her up.
One might say she could have been better off accepting Kyouko's way of living... but then it's highly debatable whether we would see Kyouko change like she did. It was the stubbornly idealistic Sayaka that Kyouko felt attached to. Another broken hero, turning to selfishness, would only prove Kyouko's bitter worldview yet again, rather than make her want to question it.
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Old 2011-05-04, 21:59   Link #234
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As for Sayaka's expectations from Kamijou, I think that's debatable. I'm sure she never expected him to thank her for having his hand healed, since he had no way to know about that. However, I do think she expected their relationship to become closer, since she had visiting him on an, apparently, daily basis and she seemed to try to cheer him every time she visited him. The issue is, he was on very low spirits because of his hand injury, since that prevented him from playing the violin. In fact, the biggest hit was when he was told he should give up on playing the violin ever again, which seemed to have put him in a depression. So, the way I see it is that Sayaka, other than simply wanting to heal him, deep down inside probably thought that if his hand was healed, he'd be in high spirits again and they'd become closer, since she had been there for him during the whole time he was in the hospital. However, right after he got out of the hospital, he didn't contact her. In fact, he didn't call her to tell her he was told he could leave the hospital. He didn't speak to her, and even less, showed any gratitude to her for having been there for him while he was in the hospital. This fact, I do believe, made her really sad. In fact, if we take the scene in the train into account and Sayaka's reaction, I think I'm sort of right.

As for Madoka not encouraging her, I don't think it's that simple. Madoka knew about the MS business, whereas Kamijou didn't. Madoka knew about the reality of the SG and Sayaka's body, and this is another thing Kamijou didn't know. So, Sayaka approaching that kid would involve either keeping it a secret from him (which is something I'm sure Sayaka wouldn't do, and I think this one of the many things that was eating her from the inside) or telling him the whole thing. The second idea would be complicated because it'd involve dragging him into a dangerous world. Moreover, the whole thing sounds like a fantasy story and thus, it's likely he won't believe any of it. So, as I said, the situation wasn't easy for Madoka to simply encourage her with some nice words.
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Old 2011-05-05, 02:31   Link #235
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And so we get back to one of the most unanimous conclusions about the show: Kamijou is a moron. Like I said, I honestly try to understand this guy, but even then it fails to redeem him. The guy simply didn't live up to what was done for him, and he's destined to remain clueless about it. Probably it's better for him not to know. And how did he view Sayaka anyway? The official arts and flashback seemed to hint that they are childhood friends. Now, you may not see your friend in a romantic way, but that doesn't explain you not bothering to contact her about leaving the hospital or returning to school, especially since you knew she was coming every day. Or maybe he expected her to contact him first? Tragically tough luck, since her attempt was interrupted by Kyouko.
The funeral scene actually disturbs me - most faces are shaded, and I can't figure out if he at least came there. But he must have been there... right? right?
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Old 2011-05-05, 02:36   Link #236
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He should be there for her, if only he should be regretting for not thanking her much or even a bit of respect, but then the last time we see him is at his audition session.

If only there was enough time for that guy to think about her, even for a moment, because Sayaka busted her butt trying to give him the best care possible, sacrificing her free time to see him become well.
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Old 2011-05-05, 04:05   Link #237
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i have a feeling that particular dick didn't even show up. sensei seemed to be aware of the love triangle involving her students. maybe hitomi revealed it to sensei since she might got a clue about sayaka's fate. if this becomes a public knowledge, at least inside the "civilian" classroom, then hitomi might regret her confession and partly feeling responsible for saya's death.

hitomi, being an aristocrat who puts premium in public image and opinion, laments over the death of her friend in private but avoided personally visiting the necrological service because of shame, guilt, and buzzing rumors.

meanwhile, the bastard acting like a man for once, feels to stand by hitomi's side and comfort his new girlfriend. what's an old childhood friend now gone, if he has a new girlfriend between his arms?

besides the bastard doesn't have any face to show. who know, i maybe wrong. who would have guessed that the bgm was played by the bastard himself!
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Old 2011-05-05, 08:01   Link #238
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then hitomi might regret her confession and partly feeling responsible for saya's death.
Provided she doesn't already. The police didn't exclude suicide version, after all.

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besides the bastard doesn't have any face to show. who know, i maybe wrong. who would have guessed that the bgm was played by the bastard himself!
Apart from Shaft's Ave Maria glitch in ep 5, he is not known to play anything else than a violin, so I doubt that.
I hoped he would at least make some requiem for her... Is she but a distant memory to him in the end?
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Old 2011-05-05, 08:55   Link #239
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I hoped he would at least make some requiem for her... Is she but a distant memory to him in the end?
despite my growing dislike for this lowlife, i won't discount the possibility that he might had visited saya's grave afterwards, mourn for her in the distance, or offered an incense, provided that he still had a human heart. a human heart...

but if he truly value honor, i don't see him having the guts to show his tail in saya's funeral. it's like when adam was finally awakened and realized he's naked and dared not show himself before the anxiously calling god. besides, people involved in some sort of controversy usually stay low profile until the heat subsides.
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Old 2011-05-05, 09:17   Link #240
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Aha. So first you don't notice that a girl has a crush on you, then you begin to ignore her, then you go out with her friend, then you have any reason not to come to her funeral? Then were you so oblivious to her feelings in the first place?

Clouds are so gathering over Kamijou's head in this topic. Maybe Sayaka wouldn't want us to go so harsh on him, but I admit I can hardly help it...
Then again, some try to justify him in a way. This fanfic I've just come across has him and Hitomi name their daughter Sayaka.
Sayaka Kamijou... Our genki knight would be drowned in a pool of her own tears...
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