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Old 2011-05-04, 00:27   Link #10141
Kuroi Hadou
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Okashira View Post
if anything the novels have widely shown that "it works".
Don't you mean "it works; don't ask how"?
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Old 2011-05-04, 02:35   Link #10142
Xenosnake
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou View Post
Don't you mean "it works; don't ask how"?
Exactly. It's bad to question things as long as it works. That's why I have no interest in ever finding out how a lightbulb works or how planes fly.
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Old 2011-05-04, 04:05   Link #10143
Chaos2Frozen
"Where mah Justice go?!"
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenosnake View Post
Exactly. It's bad to question things as long as it works. That's why I have no interest in ever finding out how a lightbulb works or how planes fly.
What are you talking about? Planes can't fly! There's no way something that big and heavy can lift off the ground! It's obviously a plot hole!
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Old 2011-05-04, 04:13   Link #10144
tsunade666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Okashira View Post
The novel purposely stated that without the holy right Fiamma is a regular dude, I think that this was mentioned when Touma dispelled his chicken hand and a simple rough fall injured him to some degree.
This is true but it's not like the holy right was gone when Crowley cut his right arm.

Touma stated in the fight when Fiamma was getting pawned that because his entire life he hasn't been hit or felt hardship that his life is easy thanks to holy right and when the power of holy right was weakening with the hate of the world banishing. It just spells doom for Fiamma.

And Fiamma's holy right. I don't understand fully the way it works. it should be the power of absolute conquer where you will always triumph against an opponent but when he fight Crowley it got pawned. Crowley comment that if Fiamma use his power right or rather use the aeon of Horus he could have surpassed him but isn't it more simple of Fiamma just target Crowley by his holy right and he could have surpassed Crowley or unless there are specific reasons why he can't use it against Crowley or did he really use it against Crowley? or is he still stuck with his target as. The world's negative energy or hatred and despair.
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Old 2011-05-04, 04:25   Link #10145
Ashaman
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Greed, I am disappoint. you forgot the Sisters as an organisation.

And maybe even ITEM. ITEM will fight for Hamazura, and he is a member of the Faction now...

You might even want to include GROUP, but that would be too far of a stretch. After all, only two members are part of the Faction, while a third will fight for Misaka.
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Old 2011-05-04, 04:33   Link #10146
Chaos2Frozen
"Where mah Justice go?!"
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post

And Fiamma's holy right. I don't understand fully the way it works. it should be the power of absolute conquer where you will always triumph against an opponent but when he fight Crowley it got pawned. Crowley comment that if Fiamma use his power right or rather use the aeon of Horus he could have surpassed him but isn't it more simple of Fiamma just target Crowley by his holy right and he could have surpassed Crowley or unless there are specific reasons why he can't use it against Crowley or did he really use it against Crowley? or is he still stuck with his target as. The world's negative energy or hatred and despair.
I've been wondering that for a long time as well; perhaps there are conditions to Holy Right? But even before all this perfecting, it had enough power to defeat the pope and the 2 billion follower magic.
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Old 2011-05-04, 06:12   Link #10147
Zakoo
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Nah ... There's one thing wrong no matter how I see it ...


Bardway deserves a better place, hell yeah, the rank god, or female sadictic dominator of kamijo touma.
Look at that face, that perfect evil smile, those ruthless eyes, all of this forcing me to yell " HIT ME §§§§"
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Old 2011-05-04, 06:53   Link #10148
Endscape
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
This is true but it's not like the holy right was gone when Crowley cut his right arm.

Touma stated in the fight when Fiamma was getting pawned that because his entire life he hasn't been hit or felt hardship that his life is easy thanks to holy right and when the power of holy right was weakening with the hate of the world banishing. It just spells doom for Fiamma.

And Fiamma's holy right. I don't understand fully the way it works. it should be the power of absolute conquer where you will always triumph against an opponent but when he fight Crowley it got pawned. Crowley comment that if Fiamma use his power right or rather use the aeon of Horus he could have surpassed him but isn't it more simple of Fiamma just target Crowley by his holy right and he could have surpassed Crowley or unless there are specific reasons why he can't use it against Crowley or did he really use it against Crowley? or is he still stuck with his target as. The world's negative energy or hatred and despair.
Didn't Aleister make certain to cut off his right hand before he attacked Fiamma?

It was mentioned that Fiamma can't properly use Holy Right in that state.

Well, just goes to show, even though Aleister is no longer in the countable world, he can still be beaten, and still has stuff to be scared of.
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Old 2011-05-04, 08:36   Link #10149
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Didn't Aleister make certain to cut off his right hand before he attacked Fiamma?
It shouldn't matter; this is the same Holy Right that blocked an orbital laser at the speed of light.

The only thing I can think off is that Aleister Crowley has an unexplainable attack similar to Ollerus... Actually, I think he did say something like that after attacking him.

Quote:
Suddenly, Fiamma’s right arm has been cut off from the shoulder.
This is a strike which its activation or signs of its presence could not be felt. The attack which came from behind Fiamma unmercifully cut apart his body. The Right Hand. The symbol of his power. Fiamma, who have lost it, screamed on the snow that’s splattered with blood.

“True enough, coming out of the container will give me a more accurate understanding. Using the magical energy that’s created through machines from my life force, it is harder to be picked up by others. Of course, with the conditions now there is no protection.”
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Old 2011-05-04, 08:58   Link #10150
Endscape
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
It shouldn't matter; this is the same Holy Right that blocked an orbital laser at the speed of light.

The only thing I can think off is that Aleister Crowley has an unexplainable attack similar to Ollerus... Actually, I think he did say something like that after attacking him.
Yup, exactly. To me, the most important part was that Aleister made sure to cut off Fiamma's right hand. Shows he isn't invincible.
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Old 2011-05-04, 09:15   Link #10151
tsunade666
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Fiamma is practically invincible as long as he can perceive it or the right hand recognize it because that's how the holy right was meant to be used but the sentence that chaoz highlighted or bold is saying that the attack is

Quote:
This is a strike which its activation or signs of its presence could not be felt
It means Fiamma couln't react at all or understand what hit him.

So even if the holy right is unstable as long as it's been reorganized like set another target IF Fiamma could just set Crowley as target or IF he knew what's coming or udnerstand what's in front of him. The holy right MIGHT REACT. Just like it did to protect Fiamma from the satelight attack.
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Old 2011-05-04, 10:50   Link #10152
Okashira
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
Fiamma is practically invincible as long as he can perceive it or the right hand recognize it because that's how the holy right was meant to be used but the sentence that chaoz highlighted or bold is saying that the attack is



It means Fiamma couln't react at all or understand what hit him.

So even if the holy right is unstable as long as it's been reorganized like set another target IF Fiamma could just set Crowley as target or IF he knew what's coming or udnerstand what's in front of him. The holy right MIGHT REACT. Just like it did to protect Fiamma from the satelight attack.
The holy rights has limits (which is the whole reason of why Fiamma started the arc and why he didn't take every character on at the same time), it wouldn't be crazy to think that Aleister is beyond what Fiamma can handle, after all isn't magic about knowledge and Aleister is just better geared than Fiamma in that regard? Specially counting what he knows about the book of law.

Personally I always understood that once Fiamma right hand is lost, his holy right was gone; after all his hand is not of the same nature of Touma's. I admit though that Fiamma is the character that I probably know the least about in the seires.

Baka tsuki update, vol 18 part 1 & 2 are done
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Last edited by Okashira; 2011-05-04 at 17:26.
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Old 2011-05-04, 11:35   Link #10153
tsunade666
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Fiamma's right hand was cut off but not his holy right. Holy right's power diminished by the time he fight Crowley but it still there. Though the holy right is the manifestation of power of the right hand of Fiamma. Though it's questionable if even Fiamma's right hand was cut off he can still use holy right.
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Old 2011-05-04, 12:04   Link #10154
giorno
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if the holy right was lost with his right arm, then how did Fiamma manage to survive Aleister's blasting rod?
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Old 2011-05-04, 12:26   Link #10155
tsunade666
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It can point as that Aleister was still underestimating Fiamma. We still aren't clear on how holy right works so their is still a mystery to it just like imagine breaker.
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Old 2011-05-04, 13:34   Link #10156
Miraluka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
And even though he has all these allies, he doesn't exactly have The tools of leadership; I doubt we will ever see them work together. Like in Russia, everybody work towards different goals but somehow everything would come together perfectly.
Well, in that matter Shiage has some good skills as leader as he did during the WW3 along with the russian villagers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Okashira View Post
The novel purposely stated that without the holy right Fiamma is a regular dude, I think that this was mentioned when Touma dispelled his chicken hand and a simple rough fall injured him to some degree.
Yeah, but he also received damage from the grimoires after the HR vanished.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Okashira View Post
When they were labeled as the Kamijou faction I remember that they somehow explained that how "the organization doesn't have something were to aim against (leader)" and that "they are all moving together in unison by conviction alone instead of "being directed"" was the most troublesome part of the possible alliance, if anything the novels have widely shown that "it works".
Thats quoted from the vol. 5 if my memory doesn't fails.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
And Fiamma's holy right. I don't understand fully the way it works. it should be the power of absolute conquer where you will always triumph against an opponent but when he fight Crowley it got pawned. Crowley comment that if Fiamma use his power right or rather use the aeon of Horus he could have surpassed him but isn't it more simple of Fiamma just target Crowley by his holy right and he could have surpassed Crowley or unless there are specific reasons why he can't use it against Crowley or did he really use it against Crowley? or is he still stuck with his target as. The world's negative energy or hatred and despair.
Its conviction what Fiamma was lacking.

When Aleister appeared, one have to expect Fiamma to be killed but his Holy Right still somehow worked and survived against a man who was there only to kill him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by giorno View Post
if the holy right was lost with his right arm, then how did Fiamma manage to survive Aleister's blasting rod?
Because it wasn't lost it just become unstable again.

- During his approach on vol. 20 it was ethereal and unstable with a limit of how many time can be used.
- With the World's distortion fixed, he became stronger.
- With Touma's right hand flesh it became hax broken yet it had a dependence on the 'ill will' from the world.
- After his defeat on the SoB, his Third arm lost his material form but when he activated it again against Crowley the Third Arm was made of his own blood, not ethereal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
It can point as that Aleister was still underestimating Fiamma. We still aren't clear on how holy right works so their is still a mystery to it just like imagine breaker.
And thats why we love them both . And thats why Aleister is gonna regret his stupidity for not give a check if Fiamma really was dead.
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Old 2011-05-04, 14:55   Link #10157
Zakoo
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Seriously? I can't believe that cunning upside down man didn't let him live on purpose.

Damn, he is a chessmater, such a pitiful failure would be a downfall
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Old 2011-05-04, 15:08   Link #10158
Endscape
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I'm pretty sure he didn't let Fiamma live on purpose.

What he did do was let Laura confirm his existence, though.
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Old 2011-05-04, 15:10   Link #10159
~Greed~
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashaman View Post
Greed, I am disappoint. you forgot the Sisters as an organisation.

And maybe even ITEM. ITEM will fight for Hamazura, and he is a member of the Faction now...

You might even want to include GROUP, but that would be too far of a stretch. After all, only two members are part of the Faction, while a third will fight for Misaka.

I thought about adding ITEM and GROUP, but decided against it since all the members of both teams haven't worked with Touma before.


Anyways, here's a version 2

Spoiler for The Kamijou Faction Chart:
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Old 2011-05-04, 17:01   Link #10160
outerelf
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Well, today seems to be the day for updates~

Volume 17 is out!

As is Volume 6~

Thanks to all the translators, once again!
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