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Old 2011-04-30, 18:40   Link #41
Vexx
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Basically, Fluff is using his own personal definition of "feminist literature" to pass judgement on the rest of the thread So... while he's "right" in that "no, none of this anime/manga really promotes modern feminism" ... he's wrong in that.. .*for Japan* - some of the material stretches the envelope. In other words, whether it is "feminist" or not rather depends on the context of the culture or of the viewer's own baggage.

He's also making outrageous assumptions about other posters, but then hey, its the Internet where some people don't believe I'm what I say I am either. Its like those MMOs where player X refuses to believe player Y is female or that anyone is female on the "net" (as I sit watching Player Y laugh her head off next to me).

Last edited by Vexx; 2011-04-30 at 19:05.
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Old 2011-04-30, 18:46   Link #42
DonQuigleone
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I'd like a decent explanation of feminism too.

I mean, isn't it just men and women are equal? One does not serve the other?

Personally I think the story of Marcela and the shepherds in Don Quixote is a pretty example of a strong female representation.

The shepherds lament that the beautiful Marcela is cruel for not loving any of them, and that she is responsible for one of their number committing suicide. Eventually she appears and says that it's not her fault that she is beautiful, and just because she is beautiful and they love her does not oblige her to love any of them in return, and that she just wants to live with nature and doesn't need to be with a man. She has the right to choose whatever lifestyle she likes, she might get married in the future, but for now wants to experience the world a bit more. The novel portrays her as being in the right, while the shepherds are basically idiots with stupid romantic fantasies.

Pretty good for 17th century Spanish literature.

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Old 2011-04-30, 19:02   Link #43
Irisiel
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Here's a general site I've seen linked many times elsewhere when "what is feminism?" is asked:
http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/


Here's Geek Feminism's take on it (shorter, at the very least), with some links:
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Feminism_101

Googling Feminism 101 tends to get results.

Over at Girl Wonder they mostly talk Western comics, but sometimes they dip into anime, manga and games, especially on the forums.

Iris Gaming Network is a site mainly for feminist gamers.

When Fangirls Attack has had recent nostalgic coverage of Sailor Moon and Sailor V.

I recommend mostly lurking until you've learnt ropes on these sites, as feminists have become so tired of repeating themselves, that they have little patience left for questions that have obvious answers if you've read the Feminist 101 blog. (And really, if you have to explain to people for the umptieth time that drugging someone and having sex with them is real rape, one's patience tend to run out.)
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Old 2011-04-30, 19:08   Link #44
Chiibi
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Quote:
Personally I think the story of Marcela and the shepherds in Don Quixote is a pretty example of a strong female representation.

The shepherds lament that the beautiful Marcela is cruel for not loving any of them, and that she is responsible for one of their number committing suicide. Eventually she appears and says that it's not her fault that she is beautiful, and just because she is beautiful and they love her does not oblige her to love any of them in return, and that she just wants to live with nature and doesn't need to be with a man. She has the right to choose whatever lifestyle she likes. The novel portrays her as being in the right, while the shepherds are basically idiots with stupid romantic fantasies.
While that is indeed feminist....I dislike the thought of "women needing to be with men=weak/anti-feminst". Because it's pretty ridiculous to me. All humans need each other. Nobody actually wants to die alone, I should think. Why else would people want to get married!?

I also dislike "extreme feminism to the point of hating men". It doesn't have to go this far. We want equality, which means no bashing of either sex. >_> Man-hating women don't look any better than men who think "women are weak idiots who belong in the kitchen".
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Old 2011-04-30, 19:18   Link #45
Irisiel
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I've yet to meet a feminist that hates men. Most have men in their lives that they like, love and are comfortable around, however, many cultural depictions of feminists use the Straw Feminazi.

Basically, instead of making feminism about "making all equal" many authors think that feminism is "putting down men and elevating women", and this isn't true. Yet so many TV shows go "It's a better story if we make this extreme feminazi, nevermind that we've now represented a minority about a million times more than there actually is people thinking like this".

Many feminists will, for example, explain at great lengths why putting women on pedestals is wrong and sexist, and why portraying men as sub-human, and expecting sub-human morals, logic and ethics from them, is also sexist.

I know that when I was a kid, I thought feminism was about hating men, but that was because of inaccurate portrayals in media. I grew up, learnt about what feminism actually was, and then ran with it.
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Old 2011-04-30, 19:26   Link #46
Chiibi
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Quote:
many authors think that feminism is "putting down men and elevating women"
Foolish authors just don't do the research >_>
Which is why they are foolish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irisiel View Post
I know that when I was a kid, I thought feminism was about hating men, but that was because of inaccurate portrayals in media.
Indeed, really, CURSE the media. XD

...........we've got so many stupid portrayls and ideas to "thank" them for, don't we? >_>
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Old 2011-04-30, 19:43   Link #47
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiibi View Post
While that is indeed feminist....I dislike the thought of "women needing to be with men=weak/anti-feminst". Because it's pretty ridiculous to me. All humans need each other. Nobody actually wants to die alone, I should think. Why else would people want to get married!?

I also dislike "extreme feminism to the point of hating men". It doesn't have to go this far. We want equality, which means no bashing of either sex. >_> Man-hating women don't look any better than men who think "women are weak idiots who belong in the kitchen".
She's doesn't "hate men" in the story, she just doesn't love any of them. She has an independent streak and is enjoying her time living in the mountain's as a shepherdess, and resents the fact that men are telling her to reciprocate their love

I don't think Feminism is about hating men either, but I think a core feminist value is that women can live without men. They are free to choose their own lives, and how they'll live. A woman is her own individual. She doesn't have to love a man just because he wants her to, and she isn't a "bitch" if she doesn't reciprocate a man's feelings. She just doesn't love them.

The story is also a reaction to the tendency of pastoral literature to put women on pedestals and objectify them. Marcela isn't a pure object, she has her own desires and wants, and happens to be a bit eccentric, and wants to live outside in nature, rather then a more conventional lifestyle, and her suitors are denigrating her for it.

But I think some women's responses to the episode would be interesting. I've put her speech in spoilers below, you can judge it as you will. Excuse the kinda archaic language, the only translation online is from the 1800s, though it's fairly readable.

Spoiler for Marcela's speech:

Last edited by DonQuigleone; 2011-04-30 at 19:56.
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Old 2011-04-30, 20:48   Link #48
synaesthetic
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I'm not a feminist, I am a humanist. I think we're all humans and we should all be treated with dignity and respect, regardless of whether we've got a pole or a hole between our legs.

Vexx has the right of things. While most Japanese fiction media ranges from mildly to horribly sexist by Western standards, when measured against their own yardstick, it tends to fare a lot better.

Personally I believe that most bog-standard "shoujo" (and josei, as well) stories are rather sexist, exemplifying and encouraging a female ideal that is extremely appealing to the patriarchy. If little girls have that as their role models when young, they just might be more "perfect wife" material later on.

Needless to say, I hate those kinds of shoujo stories.
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Old 2011-05-01, 02:08   Link #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Basically, Fluff is using his own personal definition of "feminist literature" to pass judgement on the rest of the thread So... while he's "right" in that "no, none of this anime/manga really promotes modern feminism" ... he's wrong in that.. .*for Japan* - some of the material stretches the envelope. In other words, whether it is "feminist" or not rather depends on the context of the culture or of the viewer's own baggage.
Having observed a number of female friends who are into seinen anime, I've made a few interesting observations.

In general one would assume that the genre is sexist because its so utterly concerned with making female characters appealing to a male target audience.

However, my girlfriend actually expresses admiration for a lot of girls in seinen shows for being strong characters - particularly in terms of decisive decision making. I actually think a few of her favourites make decisive decisions that are actually really poorly thought out - such as Chihiro from EF (a character I also really like, BTW) and Kaori from Kanon - but she admires them regardless, probably because she's shy and wishes she could act more like that.

A lot of girls I know who watch seinen also seem to like girls that are "crazy awesome" - such as Fuko from Clannad or various yandere characters. They just happen to be pretty cute in the process.

And then there's the cosplayers I've met who take their cosplays really, really serious. To me, it feels like a fashion statement of sorts, and not one necessarily done just to impress guys.

So while I wouldn't exactly call seinen anime feminist, girls do seem to be able to identify with seinen anime culture and characters from it in an (often) positive manner. The fact that female characters in seinen run such a huge gamut of character types probably helps since it gives them a lot of choice.

(Side note: Just as an interesting historical note, the way I understand, cute culture in Japan could hardly be accused of being patriarchal when it first started. The way I understand it, it was started by girls and was a way of rebelling against ideals placed on adult women. Whether its being co-opted into a patriarchal structure since is another story, not going to try and analyze that here.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
He's also making outrageous assumptions about other posters, but then hey, its the Internet where some people don't believe I'm what I say I am either. Its like those MMOs where player X refuses to believe player Y is female or that anyone is female on the "net" (as I sit watching Player Y laugh her head off next to me).
I'm amused by how much he's reading into someone's choice of Aria H Kanzaki as a signature/avatar. Sexualizing lolis? Aside from the fact that Aria is 16 as Chibi pointed out, at best, the show says that petite, waifish girls look sexy with a short skirt and thigh holsters and has bath scene or two. This isn't Queen's Blade, Aria's abrasive personality probably puts more girls off the show than any of the sexy stuff.

And I seriously LOLed at Chibi identifying with our petite, waifish gunslinger. You go girl - actually, I imagine there's a number of women who like these sorts of characters when the sexual element is keep to a moderate level (as it is in Aria) for precisely this reason.
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Old 2011-05-02, 00:15   Link #50
Chiibi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
And I seriously LOLed at Chibi identifying with our petite, waifish gunslinger. You go girl - actually, I imagine there's a number of women who like these sorts of characters when the sexual element is keep to a moderate level (as it is in Aria) for precisely this reason.
Why, thank you.

I would be using just a katana, myself. Guns make me too nervous...

But yes, they're appealing little characters; if you've been small all your life and have been regarded as a "weak and helpless kid", seeing "little girls" (who look like they're in the same boat as you) actually kicking ass and taking names is just one of the coolest things ever. Rukia, Shana, Maka, Aria, I love them all to pieces!!
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Old 2011-05-04, 17:31   Link #51
recover
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hmmm in general, i like animes because they portray traditional gender roles as a GOOD thing.

so are they anti-feminist? depends on what you believe feminism is. the americanized definition is one that looks down upon traditional housewife/mother roles and values. one that looks at a woman who knows how to cook as someone who is holding themselves back and is lower than a "career-oriented" one

which is of course, bullshit

but i digress...

shoujo animes may have more main heroes that appear like jerks, but they obv have a more soft side. its no diff from women, who will say the ideal guy is someone who is "nice...but with an edgy side"

women...lol...
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Old 2011-05-04, 18:52   Link #52
Kyuu
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As they say in Japan - Men come first, Women come second.

When you watch series like this, then you really have to turn off your American eyes. It's quite easy to take the American views to some of these series and question it. Often times, I fail to do so. This is in particular when fighting series that include female fighters. Many such characters have prominent roles; but eventually, they get "shoved to the side" in favor of a dominant male character.
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Old 2011-05-04, 20:34   Link #53
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Aren't harems more of shounen though?
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Old 2011-05-04, 22:01   Link #54
Asuras
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If they are, excuse me. Haven't fully memorized all the differences.
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Old 2011-05-05, 01:22   Link #55
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They are, almost exclusively.

Shoujo is generally aimed at girls in early to late teens, while Shounen is aimed at boys in the same age group. Both do, of course, have lots of fans outside their targeted demographic.
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Old 2011-05-05, 04:08   Link #56
DonQuigleone
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Harems are strictly Shounen.

Reverse Harems
are shoujo.
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Old 2011-05-05, 09:14   Link #57
Konakaga
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Harems are strictly Shounen.

Reverse Harems
are shoujo.
Harems will almost never be shoujo or josei, but saying "harem" = shounen and "revserse harem" = shoujo is over generalization, since it isn't a require.

For example, Most Romance series from VN sources that have a "harem" per say generally are considered Seinen, or none since they aren't based off manga which is where the labeling tends to come from ussually.
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Old 2011-05-05, 09:16   Link #58
Random32
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Seinen, shounen, shoujo, and josei are demographics. If something runs in a shoujo magazine, its shoujo, regardless of content. There are things that are more common in some demographics over others, such as harems being more in seinen and shounen.
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Old 2011-05-05, 10:07   Link #59
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by Konakaga View Post
Harems will almost never be shoujo or josei, but saying "harem" = shounen and "revserse harem" = shoujo is over generalization, since it isn't a require.

For example, Most Romance series from VN sources that have a "harem" per say generally are considered Seinen, or none since they aren't based off manga which is where the labeling tends to come from ussually.
Perhaps I shouldn't have said "strictly", but generally Harems are Shounen, and Reverse is Shoujo. I can't honestly think of any time where the reverse was true IE a shoujo Harem or Shounen Reverse Harem.

Shounen and Shoujo are demographic indicators, no more, and Harem appeals to both demographics, albeit in a gender flipped fashion, which would make sense.
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Old 2011-05-05, 22:14   Link #60
Chiibi
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Quote:
Shoujo animes may have more main heroes that appear like jerks, but they obv have a more soft side.
This is true. The boy will TRY to appear tough and uncaring, either because of pride or fear. But he's really just a big ol' softie inside.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuu View Post
This is in particular when fighting series that include female fighters. Many such characters have prominent roles; but eventually, they get "shoved to the side" in favor of a dominant male character.
SOUL.
EATER.


Please watch it.
Spoiler for Awesome show is awesome:
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