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Old 2011-05-04, 23:05   Link #19881
Magin
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I c wat u did thar...

you dare disgrace Tsukune by giving him those eyes? I don't need this series to go anywheres near Naruto...
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R+V fanfic- Chapter 4 of A Water Bride and a Vampire is now up at FF.net!

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Old 2011-05-05, 00:53   Link #19882
Shadow5YA
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I had to open that can of worms again... my personal opinion on Outer vs. Inner- Outer is what Moka would have been had Alucard never played a factor in her young life. Inner is essentially the Shinso-influenced side of the original Moka.

But anyways, on Akasha's personal flaw- keep in mind that she thought he would be permanently sealed- she never foresaw herself having a daughter with the Shinso blood. Then when Moka did come around (only 17 years ago, mind you), Akasha dedicated herself to being a loving mother (and wife, depending on how long she had been with Issa). I doubt she had time to try to look for a way to defeat Alucard permanently. Not to mention, being given the status of Dark Lord probably meant there were very, very few youkai even more powerful than herself, Fuhai and Mikogami with the strength to take him down
No, her mistake was injecting Moka with blood. Moka was dying and needed a transfusion to survive like Tsukune did. Shinso blood isn't inherited at birth, remember?

When Moka was injected with Shinso blood, she activated it against Akua later because she tried to murder Akasha, which unintentionally woke up Alucard.

It was understandable that Akasha gave Moka some of her blood, since she was trying to save a life, just like how Moka will do the same for Tsukune later. However, Akasha also placed a burden on Moka just like Moka placed a burden on Tsukune.
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Old 2011-05-05, 01:18   Link #19883
Manic
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shadow's right, and ur also wrong about moka as well. Outer would have never existed as inner is the true moka and outer is just the fake personality. Which is why both sisters like it when inner is released.
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Old 2011-05-05, 01:51   Link #19884
Chris38
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shadow's right, and ur also wrong about moka as well. Outer would have never existed as inner is the true moka and outer is just the fake personality. Which is why both sisters like it when inner is released.
Well, to me it seems like Outer Moka would have never existed as a separate personality , if Inner Moka wouldn't be sealed by the Rosario's power. After all, Outer Moka's personality traits still have to have some kind of source, since the Rosario is just a filter (using the definition provided in chapter 29 of the second season) and can't create something completely artificial, that hadn't existed at the time when the "sealing" occurred. In other words Outer Moka's personality traits have already existed within Moka's "real personality", and the Rosario has just created an "separate personality" using some of Moka's "original personality traits" as the "source" of Outer Moka's personality.

Meaning, that the only thing that won't exist, if the Rosario would be removed, is Outer Moka's existence as an "separate personality within Moka" , but that doesn't mean that the personality traits that define who Outer Moka is, won't be gone, since the "real Moka" would still posses the same personality traits - since, we have already seen that Inner Moka, or the "real Moka" can behave in a similar way as Outer Moka does - chapter 26 of the second season is the best example of Inner Moka behaving in a similar way as Outer Moka does.

It's just that the personality traits that Outer Moka possess don't fully define the character that the "real Moka" has, which is the reason why Outer Moka considered a "fake personality", by people who know what kind of person, the real Moka is (like Akasha, or Moka's sisters ).

At least that's how I understand the distinction between Outer and Inner Moka, and why Outer Moka is considered a "fake" or "artificial personality".

Naturally since Outer Moka is capable of experiencing emotions, has feelings, memories and experiences - in other words, everything that we normal humans have, then removing the Rosario or even merging Outer Moka with Inner Moka, could be considered as something similar to killing her - which, certainly would displease some fans of this manga, and as Tsuyoshi has said, it would be an pretty anticlimactic end to this particular problem.

After all, since Ikeda has made the character's of his manga, something more then just two dimensional characters, I don't think that we can simplify things, in our theories, of how the characters in this manga, and for now the problem of Outer Moka is a pretty serious issue that doesn't seem to have an solution - at least a solution doesn't involve the fact that Outer Moka is going to stop being an separate personality within Moka - which, as I mentioned above, would be basically the same as "killing her", since regardless of how she was made, Outer Moka is still someone who has a right to live, just as Inner Moka has the same right - at least I'm starting to understand why Tsukune has broken down so much, after he learned the truth.

Last edited by Chris38; 2011-05-05 at 02:27.
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Old 2011-05-05, 02:36   Link #19885
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shadow's right, and ur also wrong about moka as well. Outer would have never existed as inner is the true moka and outer is just the fake personality. Which is why both sisters like it when inner is released.
Their attittude toward Omote Moka wouldn't change even if Omote was "real" if you take it that Omote is just a part of Ura Moka's character. The sisters would appreciate seeing all of Moka's character rather than just a small part of it. The thing they admire most about Ura Moka is her power, something Omote certainly doesn't have. It's not a question of whether or not she's real or fake to them, and their attittude toward Omote (at least in the case of Kahlua and Kokoa) doesn't seem to imply that they think of her as a fake personality. Instead, they acknowledge Omote Moka as Moka, albeit a different side of her. Their attittude is, to me, something one should really consider. If you treat Omote as a different side of Moka, then that makes her just as real as Ura Moka, but is still fake because she's not the complete picture.

As Chris38 mentioned, both Omote and Ura Moka display similar behaviours, but because Ura Moka's character has different traits on top of her kindness, protectiveness and intelligence (the two most prominent features in Omote Moka that Ura Moka also has), she has a different way of going about things, particularly due to her cynicism, sense of independence, what have you. But if you remember the part where Ura went through a normal day of school, she wasn't ultimately all that different from Omote when you really think about it, especially at the end where she gave tsukune her pie. There's quite a lot of indications that Omote isn't just simply a creation, and a merging of the two sides of Moka's characters is quite possible. Hopefully we'll get more answers soon (perchance from Akasha herself, wishful thinking on my part )
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Old 2011-05-05, 02:43   Link #19886
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To complete the picture the Mok's need to fuse their personalities.

Spoiler for Ura Mok's:
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Old 2011-05-05, 05:51   Link #19887
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Tsukune's new look. That smooch was hellapowerful..
Spoiler:
I think the hair is just like i have said,power up shinso.but the eyes Are not like a Sasuke eyes?

Kenjiharima good work for the picture of Moka...
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Old 2011-05-05, 10:25   Link #19888
Manic
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Seems to me they treat her as a different person, cus its certainly not as their sister. So while i guess they do acknowledge her, it stops there.

I am not so sure inner needs to combine with outer to gain a cheerful side. After all that was revealed inner had a reason to be a bit cold. Her memories were wiped, her personality couldnt be let out, and she had a dark past which prolly stuck with her even if she could not remember it. As the story has progressed tho inner has started to gain some more personality growth
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Old 2011-05-06, 02:53   Link #19889
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On a different topic, I'm starting to wonder what Tsukune is actually going to learn to block against Akua's Jigen-tou . Since after seeing how powerful Tsukune's "monster form" is, and naturally, sooner or later Tsukune is going to gain control over that power.

So, I think that making Tsukune learn the Jigen-tou would be, in my opinion, make Tsukune a little too powerful.

After all, it wouldn't be good writing skills, to make the protagonist invincible, since even in his weakened form, Tohou Fuhai wasn't capable of doing anything to Tsukune in his monster form - naturally Tohou Fuhai wasn't trying to harm Tsukune, but to bring him back to a normal, until he realized what Tsukune is transforming into, bu the speed and power that Tsukune has shown in his "monster form", which probably hasn't been even the full extent of his powers, since all that time Tsukune's human mentality has been trying to regain control over his body, wasn't something easy to deal with.

Basically I don't think there is a need to increase Tsukune's offensive or defensive capabilities anymore by making Tsukune learn the Jigen-tou (if we take into consideration how Akua is using her Jigen-tou (or a similar technique, based upon it) to protect her body.) - since those are pretty much maxed out by Tsukune's Shinso blood (the power that Tsukune demonstrated in his current form + high speed regeneration that Tsukune's "berserk form" was using when his powers went out of control for the first time) .

Shortly speaking, I believe the thing that Tsukune is going to learn to block against Akua's Jigen-tou, won't be the Jigen-tou technique, but some other technique that will be a lot more compatible with Tsukune's Shinso powers - after all, it has already been shown that the Jigen-tou isn't an effective technique against Alucard or other beings with high regenerative abilities. Of course, it's certainly useful for ayashi that haven't got the blood of a Shinso vampire in their veins , but since it has been already clarified that Tsukune has got the blood of a Shinso vampire in his veins - which, as I said earlier Tsukune is going to eventually be able to control, I don't think he needs to actually learn the Jigen-tou to be able to match Akua.

In other words the only thing that Tsukune needs is something that will allow Tsukune to block against the Jigen-tou and an increase on the amount of power that Tsukune is going to be capable of using (which has already bee taken care of, by making Tsukune undergo the human modification ritual), and currently I think that the technique that Tsukune is going to learn to block against the Jigen-tou, won't be the Jigen-tou, but some other technique that, will probably be revealed in the next chapter.
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Old 2011-05-06, 03:37   Link #19890
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Seems to me they treat her as a different person, cus its certainly not as their sister. So while i guess they do acknowledge her, it stops there.

I am not so sure inner needs to combine with outer to gain a cheerful side. After all that was revealed inner had a reason to be a bit cold. Her memories were wiped, her personality couldnt be let out, and she had a dark past which prolly stuck with her even if she could not remember it. As the story has progressed tho inner has started to gain some more personality growth
Kahlua certainly saw Omote Moka as Moka, and clearly said that Ura Moka was her released form. Kokoa sees Omote Moka as a different side of her she'd rather not see because she likes Moka's power, something Omote Moka doesn't show. It's the side of Moka that Kokoa doesn't like, but it's still Moka. Akua's different, on the other hand, but the core of her feelings toward Omote aren't all too different from Kokoa's.

@Chris: I don't think he needs anything else. Akasha already would've had Akua in a choke hold if she used all her power from the beginning. Tsukune has the same power now, he just needs the skill and control over that power. I don't think it's really a matter of technique for him at this stage. He has what he needs, just needs to learn how to use it effectively.
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Old 2011-05-06, 04:24   Link #19891
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@Chris: I don't think he needs anything else. Akasha already would've had Akua in a choke hold if she used all her power from the beginning. Tsukune has the same power now, he just needs the skill and control over that power. I don't think it's really a matter of technique for him at this stage. He has what he needs, just needs to learn how to use it effectively.
Well, I agree, but since Tohou Fuhai made Tsukune undergo the human modification ritual to make Tsukune capable of using youkai techniques - which, in Tsukune's case might be techniques that vampires are capable of using - I think that at least the author is going to make Tsukune learn how to use youkai techniques, we will have to wait, until the next chapter comes out to verify that.

After all, I don't think that Tsukune will be capable of using the full extent of his powers yet - not to mention his fight with Akua wouldn't be interesting if Tsukune would be capable of using the full extent of his powers, which makes me think that the author is going to go with the "middle ground" scenario.

Meaning that Ikeda is going to increase the amount of power that Tsukune is going to be able to use, by making Tsukune undergo the human modification ritual (which has already occurred) and by making Tsukune learn how to use youkai techniques(which, probably has some techniques, that will allow Tsukune to block the Jigen-tou - shortly speaking male it ineffective against Tsukune) - and that, as I said earlier, is probably going to be, what the next chapter is going to be about.

Naturally the time that Tsukune is going to spend on learning youkai techniques, is going to increase the amount of power that Tsukune is going to be able to be able to use and control, since after all youkai techniques need youkai energy to use, and making Tsukune learn them, would be like "killing two birds with one stone".

At least that's the reason why I think that Tsukune, still needs to learn something that will allow Tsukune to fight against Akua.
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Old 2011-05-06, 04:44   Link #19892
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The way I see it, it would be more interesting if the Jigen-Tou would have an effect on Tsukune. If Tsukune fought Akua when the Jigen-Tou is ineffective against him, I'd find that even more boring compared to a fully powered Tsukune. Granted, I wouldn't like to see Tsukune become fully powered before confronting Akua, but at the same time, him fighting against Akua while completely safe against the Jigen-Tou would be rather cheap too. Also, if there was a technique that can actually block the Jigen-Tou, I'd have thought Fuhai-sensei would already have it and used it when he fought Akua.
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Old 2011-05-06, 05:05   Link #19893
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The way I see it, it would be more interesting if the Jigen-Tou would have an effect on Tsukune. If Tsukune fought Akua when the Jigen-Tou is ineffective against him, I'd find that even more boring compared to a fully powered Tsukune. Granted, I wouldn't like to see Tsukune become fully powered before confronting Akua, but at the same time, him fighting against Akua while completely safe against the Jigen-Tou would be rather cheap too. Also, if there was a technique that can actually block the Jigen-Tou, I'd have thought Fuhai-sensei would already have it and used it when he fought Akua.
Well, that's true, but we still don't know what Ikeda wants to make Tsuku8ne learn, before his confrontation with Akua. After all, I don't think that chapter 41 is the end of Tsukune's "training arc", and there is probably still going to be one or two chapters concentrated on the preparations before the raid on Fairy Tale's HQ.

After all, the technique that Tsukune could learn to block against the Jigen-tou could be something as simple as forming barriers, which are a effective way of defending against the Jigen-tou, since you have to shatter the barrier, before you can strike the person hidden behind it (as chapter 37 of the second season has shown) and generally speaking barrier's, still have weaknesses to keep the fight interesting - since at most a barrier can keep only a single strike from a fully charged Jigen-tou, and it's not like Tsukune can win against Akua just by keeping a barrier around himself to defend against Akua's attacks (and recharging it afterwords, which takes some time, which can be used as an opportunity to strike Tsukune, in other words, it dosen't make Tsukune completely immune from the Jigen-tou, just gives him some extra defense against it, for some short period of time- basically, barrier forming is the first thing that came to my mind when Tohou Fuhai has said that Tsukune needs to learn youkai techniques to be able to block the Jigen-tou since, after all, it was mentioned somewhere in the manga, that barrier forming is a youkai technique(at least from what I remember). )

At least, I think is the most likely thing that Tsukune is going to learn is forming barrier's, but it's probably a good idea to wait, until the next chapter comes out to verify if Ikeda has a similar idea as I do.
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Old 2011-05-06, 05:11   Link #19894
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Perhaps. All I'm saying is that with how much power he displayed, he may as well not have to learn anything really fancy, and Tsukune never really struck me as the type to use barriers in the first place. Remember that in the case of Vampires, their speciality is turning Youki into strength. Perhaps that is what Tsukune will learn. Your idea is feasible too so hopefully next chapter. I don't think this is the end of Tsukune's training either. As I said, he still needs to gain control over his power at the very least.
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Old 2011-05-06, 05:12   Link #19895
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After Tsukune wanted to just know how to block it, Touhou mentioned that there might be a way to block it, and with that Tsuyoshi said than Touhou would have used it when fighting with Akua, which means Touhou doesn't have a way of actually blocking his own technique.

Now what Touhou meant by "there might be a way", is that if Tsukune survived the ritual than he would be able to do so, but the technique that can be used to actually block Jigen-Tou might have to be created first, or Ikeda will use the "fight fire with fire" method and allow Touhou to go ahead and teach Tsukune Jigen-Tou, because we are well aware that Jigen-Tou can be cancelled with another Jigen-Tou, shown with Ling-Ling's and Akua's battle.

So Tsukune's two methods of blocking Jigen-Tou are.....

Having a Jigen-Tou of his own to counter Akua's version or like Chris38 has suggested a barrier technique that can ultimately block Jigen-Tou itself.

So a blocking technique that Tsukune will probably need is that of something which works around dimensions like Jigen-Tou does, kind of like: Jigen Kekkai (Dimensional Barrier)

Of course with Tsukune's High-Speed Regeneration ability, Jigen-Tou would be useless against him, just like it was with Akasha.
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Old 2011-05-06, 05:32   Link #19896
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Perhaps. All I'm saying is that with how much power he displayed, he may as well not have to learn anything really fancy, and Tsukune never really struck me as the type to use barriers in the first place. Remember that in the case of Vampires, their speciality is turning Youki into strength. Perhaps that is what Tsukune will learn. Your idea is feasible too so hopefully next chapter. I don't think this is the end of Tsukune's training either. As I said, he still needs to gain control over his power at the very least.
True, but Akua is the best example that vampires are still capable of learning something that is beyond their speciality - since I don't think that the Jigen-tou is something that is within a vampires speciality. Not to mention that Akasha herself has been shown of being able to do something that is beyond what vampires usually specialize in - after all, I think that it has been said that Akasha was the one who made Moka's Rosario, which is also something that vampires don't have a natural predisposition for.

So, I think that even if turning their youkai energy into physical strength is something that vampires specialize in, it doesn't mean that they can't use their youkai energies for something else as well. Naturally it's probably something more difficult for a vampire to learn, and the results probably won't be the same as when an ayashi who specializes in that particular skill uses it, but it hasn't been said that it's something that vampires (and Tsukune) can't learn, if they are motivated enough - and I think that you are going to agree that Tsukune is quite motivated to "save Moka".

Well, like you said, we will probably need to wait and see how Ikeda is going to continue preparing Tsukune for his fight against Akua, since for now, we don't have enough evidence to be able to deduce, who of us, is right in our speculations (or closer to the truth).
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Old 2011-05-06, 05:38   Link #19897
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I'm not denying that. My concern is the amount of time it would take for Tsukune to actually learn such techniques, considering Moka has already been taken , I would guess that Tsukune and the others don't want to waste too much time or have little time to in the first place. Barriers are something completely new to Tsukune's usual repertoire: the fact that it's not something Vampires typically learn to do and that they would have to try and learn a technique capable of blocking the most advanced barrier technique to date, I'm guessing the need more time than what they have/want to use, and so I'm under the impression Tsukune's training will focus on learning to control the power he already has. I doubt he'd learn much in terms of barrier techniques if he doesn't learn to control the core aspects of his powers first anyways.
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Old 2011-05-06, 06:37   Link #19898
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I'm not denying that. My concern is the amount of time it would take for Tsukune to actually learn such techniques, considering Moka has already been taken , I would guess that Tsukune and the others don't want to waste too much time or have little time to in the first place. Barriers are something completely new to Tsukune's usual repertoire: the fact that it's not something Vampires typically learn to do and that they would have to try and learn a technique capable of blocking the most advanced barrier technique to date, I'm guessing the need more time than what they have/want to use, and so I'm under the impression Tsukune's training will focus on learning to control the power he already has. I doubt he'd learn much in terms of barrier techniques if he doesn't learn to control the core aspects of his powers first anyways.
True, but I doubt that Ikeda is going to show us much about Tsukune's training anyway - to make the fight between Akua and Tsukune even more exiting.

I think that, if Tsukune is going to be learning some kind of new technique , then like it was done with Tsukune's training, on how to use the youkai sensor that vampires posses, in chapter 16 - explaining how the technique works, showing a few panels of Tsukune struggling to learn the "new" technique and at the end, show Tsukune being able to use the technique in some basic fashion (in the case of barrier forming techniques, it would be probably shown as Tsukune being able to create some basic or slightly advanced type of barriers)

The same could be said about Tsukune gaining control over his powers, which might not be shown at all, since Tsukune already underwent something like that in chapter 15 of the second season, where Tsukune trained with Ruby how to use and control his youkai energy, and Tsukune's training sesions with Inner Moka have brought some results as well, as it was shown in chapters 18 and 21 of the second season. Naturally we will still probably be shown how much power Tsukune is able to draw out, after his latest transformation, but I don't think that Tsukune has to undergo as much training as you think Tsuyoshi, the only thing that Tsukune probably needed to become stronger (since he already underwent training in using his youkai energy and is currently learning how to fight - in other words effectively use his vampire powers - by undertaking Inner Moka's training sessions), is for his body to begin producing larger amounts of youkai energy, which was done by the use of Tohou Fuha's modification ritual.

Naturally Tsukune hasn't got enough experience to be able to fully take control of his powers, but I believe he has already gained enough knowledge to be able to control the core aspects of his powers.

Furthermore, Tsukune has got a quite huge determination to become stronger, so taking that into consideration I think he still can mange to learn how to form barrier's - Of course, it's only going to happen, if Ikeda is going to continue Tsukune's development in such a way, which is something that we currently don't know.

Last edited by Chris38; 2011-05-06 at 06:49.
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Old 2011-05-06, 06:44   Link #19899
Merilyn Mensola
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[QUOTE=Tsuyoshi;3601396]I'm not denying that. My concern is the amount of time it would take for Tsukune to actually learn such techniques, considering Moka has already been taken , I would guess that Tsukune and the others don't want to waste too much time or have little time to in the first place. Barriers are something completely new to Tsukune's usual repertoire: the fact that it's not something Vampires typically learn to do and that they would have to try and learn a technique capable of blocking the most advanced barrier technique to date, I'm guessing the need more time than what they have/want to use, and so I'm under the impression Tsukune's training will focus on learning to control the power he already has. I doubt he'd learn much in terms of barrier techniques if he doesn't learn to control the core aspects of his powers first anyways.[/

Probably because Tsukune can now use his powers of vampire ... for him to learn new tecnique, will be easier, and will take less time.
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Old 2011-05-06, 06:52   Link #19900
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Spoiler for long post:
There's a difference between barriers and what Tsukune was learning with Ruby/Moka. Yes, Tsukune is a fast learner, but back then, he was training to control the power he already has. It was more difficult for him to do that because he had a human body, but that's not the case anymore. Nonetheless, the ability to use his Youki like he did in previous training sessions and the ability to sense the presence of others, those are all natural Vampire abilities. Moka explained as well that Vampires have the greatest skill in sensing others compared to other Ayashi. I have no doubt in my mind that learning to control those powers will be a walk in the park for him now, but as you said earlier, there's also the mental aspects of his training, which may cause the training to take a while longer.

Forming barriers is different however. While Vampires can learn to use them, they're not abilities that Vampires acquire naturally, like their super strength and spirit awareness. Those are abilities that people like Mikogami and Fuhai-sensei are better suited to because of the type of Youkai they are (I don't know about Mikogami but there's a really good chance that Fuhai-sensei is the same as Fong Fong considering Fuhai-sensei sported a third eye for a brief time, not unlike Fong Fong, and Fong Fong's father is also someone who uses seals and sorcery, so I can only guess that it runs in the family). That being said, it may take more time because Tsukune isn't naturally suited for that type of ability. If he learns anything at all, I doubt it'll be anything above basic barriers.
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