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Old 2011-02-26, 15:25   Link #581
-Suigetsu-
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paradox13 View Post
How do you know that a battle amongst top tiers can't be decided by wills alone?

It'd almost be like a staring contest
Because the strongest man in the world wasn't capable of doing that in Marineford?

It isn't much of a staring contest if one of them collapses immediately.


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Originally Posted by Kallen4life View Post
you realise haki is a MAJOR supplement ? mantra = dodge-hax .. armor - to makes your sword hit harder or to harden your defence (maybe if you make an invisible armor on your hand you can catch/parry swords bare-handed .. Rayleigh stopped that charging elephant and the Boa sisters deflected Luffy's blows)
Exactly that's my point.
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Old 2011-02-27, 15:14   Link #582
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Because the strongest man in the world wasn't capable of doing that in Marineford?
Maybe his primary fighting style isn't haki, its through his DF, which we have seen him use proficiently.

My point is that haki can be a weapon, just like a DF or actual swords.

Quote:
you realise haki is a MAJOR supplement ?
Tell me what the difference is between a sword and haki? Both objects enhance and improve your fighting ability. Weapons are enhancements too.


Anyway, you may be right; Oda hasn't shown enough for us to know yet. It wouldn't be prudent to discount anything just yet..
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Old 2011-02-27, 22:04   Link #583
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paradox13 View Post
Maybe his primary fighting style isn't haki, its through his DF, which we have seen him use proficiently.

I dunno, I always figured it was his health problems stopping him from using Haki at the same time as everything else.


Though, with his DF powers it's kinda hard to not have to use it at all. He didn't exactly need them powers to take on the likes of Akainu~
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Old 2011-02-27, 23:03   Link #584
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Originally Posted by SOGESNAKE View Post
Though, with his DF powers it's kinda hard to not have to use it at all. He didn't exactly need them powers to take on the likes of Akainu~
Not this again...
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Old 2011-05-06, 02:03   Link #585
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Crocodile and Mr. 1

(I'm well aware someone could've done this already, but I didn't feel like reading through all the posts so that's that.

First off, is it just me or did Crocodile and Mr. 1 have a "monster point chopper" like boost in strength during the war. Crocodile went toe to toe with Doflamingo, Hawkeyes, Jozu, and Akainu. We don't know the outcome of any of those battles but it certainly didn't seem like Crocodile was at a clear disadvantage in any of these fights.

Considering he lost to luffy before he was even a 100 million berry man what could possibly account for such a large jump in strength in him as well as in Daz Bones. Not that I'm complaining, I like the new croc and Daz. but it seems a really heavy jump to make.

Here's my opinion as to why Crocodile is stronger now:

1. Arrogance, didn't take Luffy seriously enough when they fought.
2. Lack of will power, Crocodile's will seems a lot stronger now than before.
3. No one knows his weakness.
4. May have gotten stronger in prison

Number 3 is the big one, if you remember back to the fight with Enel Oda stated that Enel's bounty would be in excess of 500mil had he'd been a real pirate. Luffy's bounty at the time was only a 100 million clearly not enough to win. But since his rubber neutralized his ability to produce electricity that gave Luffy a big enough edge to win. Since Luffy's bounty was at 100mill when he fought enel would that mean that learning the elemental weakness cuts your power down to a fifth? If that's the case then it may not be unreasonable to believe he could lose to Luffy and then fight on equal terms with the big shots. But even with that in mind I'd say Crocodile was far more than a fifth of his strength when he fought Luffy, and that still doesn't explain why Daz Bones has gotten so strong.

Thoughts?
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Old 2011-05-06, 02:56   Link #586
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5. Crocodile was always strong. And Daz was just as strong as you'd expect him to.
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Old 2011-05-06, 04:15   Link #587
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Maaan, crocodile has a logia df - that's counts dude.
Doflamingo, Hawkeyes, Jozu, and Akainu
Against Jozu - Dofla had already attached his strings on Jozu.
Against Dofla - it wasn't a fight, more like a brawl - like a slap or two.
Don't remember Croc against Hawkeye
And Croc against Akainu was like - Croc and the strongest pirates in WB's pirates - the commanders - sooo it doesn't count for much
But yeah - Croc is one badass character and I like him a lot.
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Old 2011-05-06, 05:32   Link #588
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheese4u View Post
(I'm well aware someone could've done this already, but I didn't feel like reading through all the posts so that's that.

First off, is it just me or did Crocodile and Mr. 1 have a "monster point chopper" like boost in strength during the war. Crocodile went toe to toe with Doflamingo, Hawkeyes, Jozu, and Akainu. We don't know the outcome of any of those battles but it certainly didn't seem like Crocodile was at a clear disadvantage in any of these fights.

Considering he lost to luffy before he was even a 100 million berry man what could possibly account for such a large jump in strength in him as well as in Daz Bones. Not that I'm complaining, I like the new croc and Daz. but it seems a really heavy jump to make.

Here's my opinion as to why Crocodile is stronger now:

1. Arrogance, didn't take Luffy seriously enough when they fought.
2. Lack of will power, Crocodile's will seems a lot stronger now than before.
3. No one knows his weakness.
4. May have gotten stronger in prison

Number 3 is the big one, if you remember back to the fight with Enel Oda stated that Enel's bounty would be in excess of 500mil had he'd been a real pirate. Luffy's bounty at the time was only a 100 million clearly not enough to win. But since his rubber neutralized his ability to produce electricity that gave Luffy a big enough edge to win. Since Luffy's bounty was at 100mill when he fought enel would that mean that learning the elemental weakness cuts your power down to a fifth? If that's the case then it may not be unreasonable to believe he could lose to Luffy and then fight on equal terms with the big shots. But even with that in mind I'd say Crocodile was far more than a fifth of his strength when he fought Luffy, and that still doesn't explain why Daz Bones has gotten so strong.

Thoughts?
Crocodile was always very strong. He "lost" to luffy only because 1) he severely under-estimated luffy even in the 3rd and last fight, 2) luffy knew his weakness, 3) the final fight was in a sealed room. Crocodile had multiple handicaps and even then the fight was in his favour. The fact that he never lost in a desert fight even when he had been in the new world before says a lot.

To me, luffy still lost. The match was technically a double KO with Luffy getting a duex ex-machina finishing blow on will power. But the double KO was only in terms of a ritualised duel. In a real fight as that was, the one-on-one was won by crocodile as luffy was going to die and crocodile was only unconscious. The only reason Luffy survived was due to Robin.

For Daz Bone, I don't recall he did much during the war. He didn't go against major enemies like the VAs, so doing well against grunts seems to be fair. Given his body and abilities, he is especially suited to survive the war without injury unless he meets a haki user. even a seastone would only make him strengthless but he would still be metal...

In fact, he would probably have no problems fighting with CP9 at all which both luffy and zoro had problems against. Or at least draw with them.


Off topic, but luffy's win against Eneru was even worse considering that even without his lightning, Enel should have been able to dodge all attacks and move much faster than him.
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Old 2011-05-06, 09:03   Link #589
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But the double KO was only in terms of a ritualised duel. In a real fight as that was, the one-on-one was won by crocodile as luffy was going to die and crocodile was only unconscious.
exactly .. Croc poisoned Luffy and pretty much won the fight .. Luffy needed other people to save his life afterwards


Daz is good enough to last some time in marineford, but we saw Mihawk own him, as it should've been .. although I don't think Daz is ALWAYS metal, like Luffy is ALWAYS rubber .. Daz activates it like Jozu I think


Enel never once demonsrated speed that you'd expect from lightning (which differs a lot, under some conditions return stroke of a lightning bolt can travel short distances at a significant fraction (1/3 or 1/2+) of the speed of light .. total avg speed is still thousands or at least hundreds of km/miles per second) in his fight with Luffy .. he 'teleported' (probably fast movement) once or twice though outside the fight afaik .. tha's why Kizaru > Enel
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Old 2011-05-06, 09:50   Link #590
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As others already said, Crocodile was already that strong to begin with. For some reason many people belittle him because he lost to Luffy, but I think they fail to remember just how much our rookie friend had to struggle in order to subdue him (he nearly died three times, after all). Same deal with Daz: Zoro was near death himself when he finally managed to hear the "breath" of his ability, so it's not like he was a pushover in the first place, either. That's why I wasn't surprised at all to see the both of them fighting against world elites at Marineford (however, I was pretty surprised to see Crocoboy go to the trouble of saving Luffy's life (more than once at that), but that's a story for a different time)......
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Old 2011-05-06, 13:09   Link #591
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@cheese4u - In addition to what everyone else said (I told you so ), you're directly correlating bounty to strength and it doesn't work that way. Bounty isn't an accurate reflection of one's fighting power; it's primarily reflects on the person's threat level.

Blackbeard became a warlord with a bounty of 0, but obviously that number doesn't reflect his monstrous strength. Chopper is most certainly not just a pet worth a measly 50; he defeated a CP9 agent by himself which is a remarkable feat. Zoro and Sanji are comparable to Luffy in fighting strength (they are known as the monster trio for a reason), but clearly their respective bounties of 120 million and 77 million as opposed to 300 million (now 400 million) don't accurately reflect that. So, as you can see, the bounty=strength system doesn't work.

As for Croc, Luffy only won due to circumstantial plot (much like he did against Enel and Moria, as well). And that makes perfect sense, seeing as how Croc is a shichibukai class pirate, whereas Luffy was just a rookie. Oda made it a point to emphasize the difference in caliber between the two levels. Even at Impel Down, Croc was treated as the same caliber as Ace and Jimbei; they all underwent the boiling baptism without even flinching and were all stationed on Level 6. Pre-time skip, Luffy wasn't on their level (as in strength, if you will). Finally, the war at Marineford showed us what Croc is like when he doesn't underestimate anyone (and for good reason seeing as how the battlefield was full of elites); he can hang with the big boys.

Croc was one of 7 elite pirates chosen to work for the WG. They deemed him worthy of shichibukai status, and thus that is a testament to him always being very strong. The WG wouldn't recruit someone weaker than a rookie, especially since the Shichibukai were formed to counterbalance the Yonkou.
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Old 2011-05-06, 15:48   Link #592
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Thanks Blackbeard D. Kuma for the informative and slightly condescending lesson, but I'm well aware bounty isn't reflexive of strength. That doesn't change the fact that something doesn't make sense about all of this. Bounty is not entirely indicative of the strength of a character but it doesn't mean it should be dismissed. Clearly, most bounties give you a good indicator of what that person's strength is. But even going by other measures such as relative strength it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Honestly, what percentage chance would you give pre time skip Luffy of defeating Jozu, Doflamingo, Mihawk, Akainu, or Whitebeard? I'd say pretty close to zero for all of them. Having said that would it shock you if Luffy got owned in one hit by any of these guys? I don't think it would. And yet Crocodile came out of all of those fights unscathed. Luffy went toe to toe with some of those guys as well, but thats only because he had help (namely from Crocodile!). You can say what you want about how Crocodile wasn't taking Luffy seriously in their previous encounter, but in that final fight he clearly was. I'd think if Crocodile was reasonably this strong to begin with, once the gloves came off in Alabasta don't you think he'd be able to one hit KO Luffy as well? Especially when you consider how much weaker Luffy was then as opposed to now, it doesn't make sense. I mean he was fresh out of East Blue for crying out loud!


Don't get me wrong, as I said before I'm a big fan of the new Crocodile and Daz Bones, so I'm not complaining about their sudden surge in strength. But I put a huge emphasis on the word "new." Meaning this clearly isn't a power that they had before. Both Crocodile and Daz are showing a strength that is at least several times greater than what they showed in Alabasta. Of course I myself have felt for a long time Crocodile was stronger than Luffy, but by this much? He lost to Luffy with no 2nd or third gears a few arcs back and now he looks like a Yonkou. There is clearly a large unexplained gap in Crocodile's power that needs to be explained. I'm sorry but no matter what the circumstances there's no logical reason for one to be able to go from being pwned by a gearless Luffy to fighting on equal terms with Mihawk.

Of course if Oda were to explain all of this logically I'd happily accept it. Like for instance, maybe Crocodile and Daz know Haki but just weren't using it in their fights. That would explain a lot. But so far no explanation has been given and its left me a bit dumbfounded.
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Last edited by cheese4u; 2011-05-06 at 16:48.
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Old 2011-05-06, 16:49   Link #593
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Originally Posted by cheese4u View Post
Bounty is not entirely indicative of the strength of a character but it doesn't mean it should be dismissed. Clearly, most bounties give you a good indicator of what that person's strength is. But even going by other measures such as relative strength it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
I never claimed bounty should be dismissed. I said Bounty isn't an accurate reflection of one's fighting power; it's primarily reflects on the person's threat level. The examples I provided you sufficiently prove this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheese4u View Post
Honestly, what percentage chance would you give pre time skip Luffy of defeating Jozu, Doflamingo, Mihawk, Akainu, or Whitebeard? I'd say pretty close to zero for all of them. Having said that would it shock you if Luffy got owned in one hit by any of these guys? I don't think it would. And yet Crocodile came out of all of those fights unscathed. Luffy went toe to toe with some of those guys but thats only because he had help (namely from Crocodile!).
Many of the war's fights were brief skirmishes that were interrupted at some point. Not exactly good indicators as to who would emerge victorious in a fight.

Croc tanked a brilliant punk from Jozu, but he most certainly would have lost were it not for Doflamingo's interference. Jozu outclasses Croc in all physical aspects.

Doflamingo was more of annoyance than anything. He wanted to make Croc his underling, to which the latter replied no. Croc retaliated with a sandstorm which appeared to have no effect on Doflamingo. Later on, we see Doflamingo's decapitation is ineffective on Croc (since he's a logia user). Subsequent to that, the two warlords clash. This skirmish, too, was inconclusive.

Mihawk was only intercepted by Croc's hook. We don't see anything else beyond that altercation. Hardly evidence to say Croc's on par with the master swordsman.

Akainu was sliced by Croc's desert sparda, but the attack had no effect. Croc then teams up with WB's division commanders to deal with the admiral. Again, this doesn't establish any equality between the two in question.

Croc didn't even fight WB. Obviously he would have gotten destroyed if he tried. His assassination attempt was thwarted by Luffy. He never made physical contact with WB.

The point is, brief, inconclusive clashes don't definitively determine tiers.

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Originally Posted by cheese4u View Post
You can say what you want about how Crocodile wasn't taking Luffy seriously but in that final fight he clearly was. I'd think if Crocodile was reasonably this strong to begin with, once the gloves came off in Alabasta don't you think he'd be able to one hit KO Luffy as well? Especially when you consider how much weaker Luffy was then as opposed to now, it doesn't make sense. I mean he was fresh out of East Blue for crying out loud!
No he wasn't. I don't see how you can possibly think that when Croc deliberately chose to handicap himself in the final round. He refrained from using his sand powers (his greatest and most dangerous tool in battle) and resorted to using only his hook. How is that taking someone seriously?

KO Luffy in one hit? Yes, he was a rookie, but I think you're greatly underestimating his resilience. Luffy's will power and rubber defenses keep him going. That's been shown time and time again.

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Originally Posted by cheese4u View Post
But I put a huge emphasis on the word "new." Meaning this clearly isn't a power that they had before. Both Crocodile and Daz are showing a strength that is at least several times greater than what they showed in Alabasta. Of course I myself have felt for a long time Crocodile was stronger than Luffy, but by this much? He lost to Luffy with no 2nd or third gears a few arcs back and now he looks like a Yonkou. There is clearly a large unexplained gap in Crocodile's power that needs to be explained. I'm sorry but no matter what the circumstances there's no logical reason for one to be able to go from being pwned by a gearless Luffy to fighting on equal terms with Mihawk.

Of course if Oda were to explain all of this logically I'd happily accept it. Like for instance, maybe Crocodile and Daz know Haki but just weren't using it in their fights. That would explain a lot. But so far no explanation has been given and its left me a bit dumbfounded.
With the replies from myself and the other members, I don't see how you can still be in denial. I think the problem here is you're looking at One Piece much like Dragon Ball. In Dragon Ball, the characters get progressively more powerful in each subsequent arc. However, in One Piece, things don't necessarily work that way. There's a lot of "rock-paper-scissors" match ups and much less linearity in power progression. You feel that because Croc was defeated way back in Alabasta that he should have performed much worse during the war; but as already explained, Oda employed the use of special circumstances to make our hero prevail over him. That is good writing, unlike the sudden power boost BS seen in many other shonen manga. Oda has stayed consistent with his power levels.
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Old 2011-05-06, 17:38   Link #594
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To put the discussion in perspective, if Enel were to have fought at Marineford, none but the Admirals, Whitebeard and his best, and the best of the Shichibukai (and Luffy ) would have stood a chance against him. Simply because you have been defeated in the past does not mean you will be defeated in the future (though, Crocodile has a pretty big weakness that increases exponentially when fighting at sea). Crocodile did nothing more at Marineford than he did at Alabasta, in fact he was probably weaker at Marineford (considering he did not have a desert of sand and an arid environment to help in his techniques).
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Old 2011-05-06, 18:40   Link #595
cheese4u
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
I never claimed bounty should be dismissed. I said Bounty isn't an accurate reflection of one's fighting power; it's primarily reflects on the person's threat level. The examples I provided you sufficiently prove this.
What you gave me were special examples. For the most part only under special circumstances does a persons bounty not reflect there strength. All the other times a bounty is either at or around there actual strength. For instance if someone's bounty is 50mil, unless otherwise stated, no one's gonna assume he can take on a 500mill bounty head, or 250 mill, or even a 100 mill.



Quote:
Many of the war's fights were brief skirmishes that were interrupted at some point. Not exactly good indicators as to who would emerge victorious in a fight.
You can see as well as I did that he faired pretty well against all of them, better than I would expect someone who's supposedly not on their level.

Quote:
Croc tanked a brilliant punk from Jozu, but he most certainly would have lost were it not for Doflamingo's interference. Jozu outclasses Croc in all physical aspects.
You saying Jozu would've won is the same as me saying he's on par with the others (Although that's not exactly what I was saying). There's little evidence to support either argument.

But brief as it was there's evidence in this fight alone that does support my argument. One punch from Jozu had as much of an effect, or imo, the same as one punch from a 30 million bounty head rookie? It's not like Jozu doesn't have any physical strength, ask that skyscraper sized iceberg that he through at the marines. He got hurt by a guy who fought on par with an admiral in a similar fashion to how he got hurt by pre-gear, fresh out of east blue, sub 100mil bounty Luffy. I'm sorry that doesn't make any logical sense to me.

Quote:
Doflamingo was more of annoyance than anything. He wanted to make Croc his underling, to which the latter replied no. Croc retaliated with a sandstorm which appeared to have no effect on Doflamingo. Later on, we see Doflamingo's decapitation is ineffective on Croc (since he's a logia user). Subsequent to that, the two warlords clash. This skirmish, too, was inconclusive.
Why would Doflamaingo want Croc as an underling so bad if he were as weak as you claimed. Even though he did essentially ask Croc to be his underling, what he spoke of sounded more like a partnership (you and me versus the world type of thing). Why would he be so insistent if Croc were some mediocre pirate?

Quote:
Croc didn't even fight WB. Obviously he would have gotten destroyed if he tried. His assassination attempt was thwarted by Luffy. He never made physical contact with WB.
Of course he would've pwned Crocodile, I didn't mean to include WB in my original argument. I was using him mostly as an example as to how much power he has now compared to earlier. Crocodile is a smart guy if he didn't feel like he could reasonably take on WB, I don't think he would've approached with so much confidence.




Quote:
No he wasn't. I don't see how you can possibly think that when Croc deliberately chose to handicap himself in the final round. He refrained from using his sand powers (his greatest and most dangerous tool in battle) and resorted to using only his hook. How is that taking someone seriously?

KO Luffy in one hit? Yes, he was a rookie, but I think you're greatly underestimating his resilience. Luffy's will power and rubber defenses keep him going. That's been shown time and time again.
Crap, I forgot about the hook thing But that only proves he's stronger than I thought, not strong enough to do the things he did in the war.


Quote:
With the replies from myself and the other members, I don't see how you can still be in denial. I think the problem here is you're looking at One Piece much like Dragon Ball. In Dragon Ball, the characters get progressively more powerful in each subsequent arc. However, in One Piece, things don't necessarily work that way. There's a lot of "rock-paper-scissors" match ups and much less linearity in power progression. You feel that because Croc was defeated way back in Alabasta that he should have performed much worse during the war; but as already explained, Oda employed the use of special circumstances to make our hero prevail over him. That is good writing, unlike the sudden power boost BS seen in many other shonen manga. Oda has stayed consistent with his power levels.
Again, much like with the bounty debate earlier, I'm well aware this isn't DBZ. I first became suspicious of this when I looked at the cover and it said "One Piece." But even taking you're evidence into consideration I still think Crocodile took an Evel Knievel type leap from fighting Luffy to essentially dominating in the war. You can say what you want about each individual fight he was in. If he were that much weaker than all those guys he clashed with you'd think one of them would've beat him. Is he strong or is he just that lucky?

And what about Mr. 1, I'm pretty sure he didn't have this kind of power before either. Unlike Crocodile, I don't recall him mentioning anything about a handicap in his fight with Zoro. Sure, you could argue he wasn't taking that fight seriously either, but that still doesn't explain the outcome. One slash from Zoro and he's out cold. Two attacks from Mihawk and he's relatively fine? He even mentioned how he had gotten out of shape in prison suggesting he may have been stronger before. I guess if you squint your eyes this would all make sense, but realistically there seems to be something missing.

And just to clarify, (because it seems James has also hit me with a "just because you beat 'em doesn't mean your stronger" comment), I'm well aware that defeating someone doesn't mean you're stronger. In fact in my earlier post I said, and I quote " I myself have felt for a long time Crocodile was stronger than Luffy." My argument was about the leap he took from that to how he performed in the war. Which from my perspective looked like way too much for a guy who lost to a 30 million bounty head even if he wasn't taking the fight seriously.
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Last edited by cheese4u; 2011-05-06 at 18:51.
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Old 2011-05-06, 18:47   Link #596
Kuroi Hadou
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheese4u View Post
I guess if you squint your eyes this would all make sense, but realistically there seems to be something missing.
Realism isn't exactly a signature element of One Piece.

But since we're on the subject of bounties: Didn't Oda say that, had anyone known Crocodile was Mr. 0, the leader of Baroque Works, his bounty would have more than doubled, making it 162+ million beri? By your logic, his strength in the war makes a lot more sense when you take that into consideration.
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Old 2011-05-06, 19:16   Link #597
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Originally Posted by cheese4u View Post
You saying Jozu would've won is the same as me saying he's on par with the others (Although that's not exactly what I was saying). There's little evidence to support either argument.
Croc saw Jozu coming at him, and he wasn't fast enough to dodge/react to the behemoth. He then commented that Jozu's speed complements his monstrous strength, which he didn't expect from such a big guy. Jozu is part of WB's monster trio (Marco, Jozu, and Vista), and he fought equally against Aokiji prior to his distraction. Croc isn't capable of replicating that, and thus it can be inferred he would lose to Jozu. The difference between them is clear, and Croc's logia intangibility means nothing against Jozu's armored Haki.

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Originally Posted by cheese4u View Post
But brief as it was there's evidence in this fight alone that does support my argument. One punch from Jozu had as much of an effect, or imo, the same as one punch from a 30 million bounty head rookie? It's not like Jozu doesn't have any physical strength, ask that skyscraper sized iceberg that he through at the marines. He got hurt by a guy who fought on par with an admiral in a similar fashion to how he got hurt by pre-gear, fresh out of east blue, sub 100mil bounty Luffy. I'm sorry that doesn't make any logical sense to me.
Croc has good resilience. He showed he can take a big beating at Alabasta. He had to be punched through numerous layers of bedrock to finally be put down. I don't see any problem with this.

Jozu's Brilliant Punk is more of a GTFO move. He tackles the person with his forearm. The nature of said attack would do less damage than a punch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheese4u View Post
Why would Doflamaingo want Croc as an underling so bad if he were as weak as you claimed. Even though he did essentially ask Croc to be his underling, what he spoke of sounded more like a partnership (you and me versus the world type of thing). Why would he be so insistent if Croc were some mediocre pirate?
Whoa, I never claimed Croc was weak. I'm arguing the opposite towards you. Croc is strong, and Doflamingo sees that. That's obviously the logical explanation as to why he would give Croc such an offer. Doflamingo hates weaklings, so if Croc were a weakling (which he isn't), he wouldn't try to form an "alliance" with him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheese4u View Post
Of course he would've pwned Crocodile, I didn't mean to include WB in my original argument. I was using him mostly as an example as to how much power he has now compared to earlier. Crocodile is a smart guy if he didn't feel like he could reasonably take on WB, I don't think he would've approached with so much confidence.
Typical bad guy arrogance; that is all. You're looking too deeply into this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheese4u View Post
Crap, I forgot about the hook thing But that only proves he's stronger than I thought, not strong enough to do the things he did in the war.
Not really. He handicapped himself and underestimated his opponent (just like a typical James Bond villain ). Again, Alabasta Croc is no different than Marineford Croc. There's no reason to believe so. Subsequent to his defeat, he was confined at Impel Down and restrained with seastone handcuffs. That being said, he couldn't have trained during the period of time leading up to the war, so obviously he didn't get any stronger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheese4u View Post
Again, much like with the bounty debate earlier, I'm well aware this isn't DBZ. I first became suspicious of this when I looked at the cover and it said "One Piece." But even taking you're evidence into consideration I still think Crocodile took an Evel Knievel type leap from fighting Luffy to essentially dominating in the war. You can say what you want about each individual fight he was in. If he were that much weaker than all those guys he clashed with you'd think one of them would've beat him. Is he strong or is he just that lucky?
What I'm saying to you is that Croc never changed at all. He was always that strong. Underestimating your opponent and deliberately handicapping yourself can make you lose even to a rookie if you're not careful. That's exactly what happened back at Alabasta.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheese4u View Post
And what about Mr. 1, I'm pretty sure he didn't have this kind of power before either. Unlike Crocodile, I don't recall him mentioning anything about a handicap in his fight with Zoro. Sure, you could argue he wasn't taking that fight seriously either, but that still doesn't explain the outcome. One slash from Zoro and he's out cold. Two attacks from Mihawk and he's relatively fine? He even mentioned how he had gotten out of shape in prison suggesting he may have been stronger before. I guess if you squint your eyes this would all make sense, but realistically there seems to be something missing.
Mr. 1 fought fodder during the war, so of course he did well. Any competent fighter can take out grunts. One thing you'll notice with Mihawk is that he has to concentrate on whatever material he's cutting. When he directed his slash at WB, he intended to cut flesh. But he certainly didn't expect a diamond man to intercept and block his slash. The same things applies to Mr.1. Mihawk was pursuing Luffy and threw a slash at him with the intent to cut flesh. Then out of nowhere Mr.1 blocks the slash with his metal body. Mihawk wasn't focused on cutting metal; he was focused on cutting flesh/skin. Immediately after that interception, however, Mihawk cut Mr.1 down CLEANLY. So I don't see what the problem is here. That scene depicted that Mr.1 is no match for Mihawk, which makes perfect sense.

Just because you intercept/stop someone, it doesn't mean you're in their league. I can't stress this enough.
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Old 2011-05-06, 20:12   Link #598
cheese4u
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@Kuroi Hadou We, or at least I, wasn't arguing about Crocodile's bounty. His was inactive at the time so it didn't really matter. I was arguing about Luffy's bounty at the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
Croc saw Jozu coming at him, and he wasn't fast enough to dodge/react to the behemoth. He then commented that Jozu's speed complements his monstrous strength, which he didn't expect from such a big guy. Jozu is part of WB's monster trio (Marco, Jozu, and Vista), and he fought equally against Aokiji prior to his distraction. Croc isn't capable of replicating that, and thus it can be inferred he would lose to Jozu. The difference between them is clear, and Croc's logia intangibility means nothing against Jozu's armored Haki.


Croc has good resilience. He showed he can take a big beating at Alabasta. He had to be punched through numerous layers of bedrock to finally be put down. I don't see any problem with this.

Jozu's Brilliant Punk is more of a GTFO move. He tackles the person with his forearm. The nature of said attack would do less damage than a punch.
If it was just a "GTFO move" then why did he have to go diamond? Surely the man who went up against an admiral wouldn't have to use his Diamonds to hit him if he just wanted him to get out of the way. And on top of that why didn't it hurt him? You'd think a guy who lost to a 30mill bounty head (no matter what the circumstances) would've been KO'ed in one hit or at least severely injured if he got hit by something that was so much more powerful than he. I guess you could argue that he didn't intend on doing a whole lot of damage, but then why go diamond? And besides, did DonQuixote really save Crocodile, or was he just butting in to deliver his message? We don't know that Crocodile was about to lose the fight all he said was Jozu is "fast" not "Oh shit I'm about to lose."

Quote:
Whoa, I never claimed Croc was weak. I'm arguing the opposite towards you. Croc is strong, and Doflamingo sees that. That's obviously the logical explanation as to why he would give Croc such an offer. Doflamingo hates weaklings, so if Croc were a weakling (which he isn't), he wouldn't try to form an "alliance" with him.
No, your argument was Croc was this strong from the beginning. And that he didn't get a whole lot stronger, as I beleive he did. You tried to demonstrate this by saying he's not on par with any of the guys he fought during the war (i. e. Jozu, Mihawk, Doflamingo). I'm saying he is that strong, and it doesn't make any sense considering how strong he was before.

Quote:
Typical bad guy arrogance; that is all. You're looking too deeply into this.
I'm not looking too deeply at this, but it's true that Crocodile is indeed arrogant, but he backed up that arrogance throughout most of this war.


Quote:
Not really. He handicapped himself and underestimated his opponent (just like a typical James Bond villain ). Again, Alabasta Croc is no different than Marineford Croc. There's no reason to believe so. Subsequent to his defeat, he was confined at Impel Down and restrained with seastone handcuffs. That being said, he couldn't have trained during the period of time leading up to the war, so obviously he didn't get any stronger.
Of course, that's my whole argument. He's been in prison this entire time so how did he get that strong? I'm not saying he's gotten stronger or weaker, i'm saying he's demonstrating a level of strength that's not anywhere near what he's showed us previously.


Quote:
What I'm saying to you is that Croc never changed at all. He was always that strong. Underestimating your opponent and deliberately handicapping yourself can make you lose even to a rookie if you're not careful. That's exactly what happened back at Alabasta.
So you're saying it could happen to Doflamingo, Akainu, Jozu, and Mihawk? If Luffy combined gears two and three together and fought any of those guys one on one with all the resillience he could muster he still would've lost, even if they weren't taking the fight seriously. You could say that's just speculation, but would it surprise anyone if that were true? Crocodile fought a gearless Luffy and lost. To go from that to fighting with Jozu, Mihawk, and Doflamingo and not getting owned seems strange to me.


Quote:
Mr. 1 fought fodder during the war, so of course he did well. Any competent fighter can take out grunts. One thing you'll notice with Mihawk is that he has to concentrate on whatever material he's cutting. When he directed his slash at WB, he intended to cut flesh. But he certainly didn't expect a diamond man to intercept and block his slash. The same things applies to Mr.1. Mihawk was pursuing Luffy and threw a slash at him with the intent to cut flesh. Then out of nowhere Mr.1 blocks the slash with his metal body. Mihawk wasn't focused on cutting metal; he was focused on cutting flesh/skin. Immediately after that interception, however, Mihawk cut Mr.1 down CLEANLY. So I don't see what the problem is here. That scene depicted that Mr.1 is no match for Mihawk, which makes perfect sense.

Just because you intercept/stop someone, it doesn't mean you're in their league. I can't stress this enough.
This entire paragraph (except for the last sentence) is pure speculation. Mihawk can only cut what he intends to cut? Where'd you hear that? Mr. 1 was imprisoned in level 4 of impel down. He's not even supposed to be on the same level as Luffy and yet now he has the power to protect him. He lost to Zoro not long after Zoro lost to Mihawk in embarrassing fashion. Mihawk made it pretty damn clear in that fight the gap between him and a regular fighter. And yet Mr. 1was KO'ed by one slash of Zoro's sword. And yet during the war he took a blast from Mihawk that took all of Jozu's strength to deflect, and then took a slash from Mihawk to the chest and appeared to be relatively fine after that. Don't you find it a little odd that he was able to fair that well against Mihawk, after having previously been defeated by a man Mihawk owned with a toy sword?

Now take note that I'm not saying Crocodile can defeat Mihawk, Akainu, Jozu, or Doflamingo. I'm saying that he was fighting on par with them (i. e. as if he were at or around their strength). Which IMO he was.
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Old 2011-05-06, 22:10   Link #599
marvelB
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Well, seeing as cheese4u's so adamant that Croc and Daz somehow powered up after their defeat in Alabasta, I suppose I can provide a possible answer to this claim: The two of them were served a generous helping of Iva's hormone milkshake during the ID prison break. That's right, expect to see a gender-swapped post-skip Crocoboygirl and Daz in the near future!
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Old 2011-05-06, 22:25   Link #600
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheese4u View Post
If it was just a "GTFO move" then why did he have to go diamond? Surely the man who went up against an admiral wouldn't have to use his Diamonds to hit him if he just wanted him to get out of the way. And on top of that why didn't it hurt him? You'd think a guy who lost to a 30mill bounty head (no matter what the circumstances) would've been KO'ed in one hit or at least severely injured if he got hit by something that was so much more powerful than he. I guess you could argue that he didn't intend on doing a whole lot of damage, but then why go diamond? And besides, did DonQuixote really save Crocodile, or was he just butting in to deliver his message? We don't know that Crocodile was about to lose the fight all he said was Jozu is "fast" not "Oh shit I'm about to lose."
It was a GTFO move in the sense of getting him the hell away from WB (and it did just that). He was protecting his captain. Jozu's Brilliant Punk involves turning his arm into diamond. That's just the way it is. And what are you talking about that it didn't hurt Croc? Blood came out of his mouth and he was on the ground still recovering from the blow.

Why are you trying to quantitatively measure the difference in fighting blows here? That's not even important. Croc was repeatedly punched through layers of bedrock, and that was enough to finally put him down. That's high damage soak right there. Despite Jozu being leagues above Luffy, one Brilliant Punk won't be enough to put down Croc. It takes a decent amount of effort to put someone of warlord caliber down.

Croc would have undoubtedly lost to Jozu. Jozu is faster, stronger, adept at Haki usage, and has better feats overall. This is one of WB's top subordinates we're talking about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheese4u View Post
No, your argument was Croc was this strong from the beginning. And that he didn't get a whole lot stronger, as I beleive he did. You tried to demonstrate this by saying he's not on par with any of the guys he fought during the war (i. e. Jozu, Mihawk, Doflamingo). I'm saying he is that strong, and it doesn't make any sense considering how strong he was before.

Of course, that's my whole argument. He's been in prison this entire time so how did he get that strong? I'm not saying he's gotten stronger or weaker, i'm saying he's demonstrating a level of strength that's not anywhere near what he's showed us previously.
The two bold statements of yours contradict each other.

Just because Croc may be weaker than some of these top guys doesn't mean that he would get absolutely slaughtered in a fight. It seems you're having trouble understanding this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheese4u View Post
So you're saying it could happen to Doflamingo, Akainu, Jozu, and Mihawk? If Luffy combined gears two and three together and fought any of those guys one on one with all the resillience he could muster he still would've lost, even if they weren't taking the fight seriously. You could say that's just speculation, but would it surprise anyone if that were true? Crocodile fought a gearless Luffy and lost. To go from that to fighting with Jozu, Mihawk, and Doflamingo and not getting owned seems strange to me.
For someone of Croc's "level", yes it's possible. Obviously the aforementioned characters you listed are stronger than him; and by powerscaling, Luffy won't be able to beat them no matter how much circumstances play in his favor. Those guys are all top tiers; Croc isn't.

But again, just because Croc is weaker than those elites doesn't mean that he can't hang with them for a while. He was chosen for a reason by the WG to become a warlord. And all of his brief exchanges with those characters were just that: brief exchanges. That doesn't properly tell you how a real uninterrupted fight would go down between the fighters in question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheese4u View Post
This entire paragraph (except for the last sentence) is pure speculation. Mihawk can only cut what he intends to cut? Where'd you hear that? Mr. 1 was imprisoned in level 4 of impel down. He's not even supposed to be on the same level as Luffy and yet now he has the power to protect him. He lost to Zoro not long after Zoro lost to Mihawk in embarrassing fashion. Mihawk made it pretty damn clear in that fight the gap between him and a regular fighter. And yet Mr. 1was KO'ed by one slash of Zoro's sword. And yet during the war he took a blast from Mihawk that took all of Jozu's strength to deflect, and then took a slash from Mihawk to the chest and appeared to be relatively fine after that. Don't you find it a little odd that he was able to fair that well against Mihawk, after having previously been defeated by a man Mihawk owned with a toy sword?
Yes, it is speculation. But even so, the fact of the matter is that Mr.1 was fodder for Mihawk. Plain and simple. And the slash Mihawk threw at WB was much more powerful than the one Mr.1 deflected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheese4u View Post
Now take note that I'm not saying Crocodile can defeat Mihawk, Akainu, Jozu, or Doflamingo. I'm saying that he was fighting on par with them (i. e. as if he were at or around their strength). Which IMO he was.
And your assessment is incorrect, for reasons I've already explained.

This argument is going nowhere. You're the only one who believes Croc got stronger, whereas myself and others have already provided in-depth explanations as to why that's not the case. But feel free to believe what you want.
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