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Old 2011-05-04, 11:22   Link #21
Ithekro
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Considering the Vietnamese beat China...not much chance of that happening.
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Old 2011-05-04, 12:15   Link #22
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Actually we look quite delicious now considering that Malaysia is going into sovereign debt, while Singapore has tons of cash surplus. Back then when we were ejected. we are nothing but a small fishing village.

And their military is bigger than ours, have better rifles, and commandos who have seen real combat experience.
Actually if you think about it, they would gain nothing. Singapore has no natural resources. It's only resources are intellectual and unphysical. In invading Singapore, would Malaysia gain any kind of control of Singapore's financial resources? No, those resources would simply cease to exist. Likewise, I don't know what industrial resources Singapore has, but if it has any, they would likely be destroyed in any prospective invasion of the Island.

So if you think about it, Malaysia wouldn't gain a thing by invading the island, just the people living within it as citizens. The only way Malaysia can gain anything from Singapore is either Peaceful Annexation, or some kind of extortionate relationship.

Now I'm not sure how well extortion would work. While Malaysia has raw military power, more then enough to overpower Singapore itself, Singapore has immense economic power, as much as Malaysia (though you can correct me on this). Any kind of extortion carried out against Singapore would just as easily turn against Malaysia.

So Malaysia could wipe out Singapore, but could never actually gain anything from it. One cannot seize another's "money making capability". Only Physical resources can be gained in war. So there's good reason for Iraq to invade Kuwait, it had Oil, while Singapore has nothing but Fish, and not much at that.

A much more profitable approach for Malaysia would be to try and leech some of Singapore's economic success and capital accumulation. I'm not sure how it could do this. I suppose it could charge higher tarriffs on the straits of Mallucca. But that could easily start off a trade war with Singapore, which it probably couldn't win.

Last edited by DonQuigleone; 2011-05-04 at 17:01.
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Old 2011-05-04, 13:31   Link #23
LeoXiao
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Given how China treated the Uighur minorities last year, I don't think that Malaysians and Indonesians are going to take that lightly.

I don't think I would have a bone to pick if they cleaned up their corrupted political system. Otherwise, I'd join the anti-China side of SEA.
Indeed, the government/party is at this point THE long-term obstacle for China's sustained rise. It's a tyranny, so that makes most of the nations around it naturally wary (and thus still allied to the USA) and they shy away from Chinese (still communist/totalitarian) influence. Also, the CCP is ultimately ideologically incompatible with the Chinese people and will have to go at some point or another. Depending on how it is removed or phased out, there might be another round of general chaos rendering China behind in the race. My impression is that the CCP will fight tooth and nail to stay in power (look at Tiananmen), which will make the inevitable transition very complicated, thus increasing the chance of messing up the country's prospects.

However, if the Chinese government were to suddenly announce political reforms and reject Communism once and for all (not plausible but what if), I think that China would easily become the leading nation in Asia and soon after that, the world. We all saw how far Japan got, and that nation has less than 10% of China's population. The Chinese could do way better if it weren't for that stupid, morally bankrupt one-party system.
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Old 2011-05-04, 21:59   Link #24
SaintessHeart
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Actually if you think about it, they would gain nothing. Singapore has no natural resources. It's only resources are intellectual and unphysical. In invading Singapore, would Malaysia gain any kind of control of Singapore's financial resources? No, those resources would simply cease to exist. Likewise, I don't know what industrial resources Singapore has, but if it has any, they would likely be destroyed in any prospective invasion of the Island.

So if you think about it, Malaysia wouldn't gain a thing by invading the island, just the people living within it as citizens. The only way Malaysia can gain anything from Singapore is either Peaceful Annexation, or some kind of extortionate relationship.

Now I'm not sure how well extortion would work. While Malaysia has raw military power, more then enough to overpower Singapore itself, Singapore has immense economic power, as much as Malaysia (though you can correct me on this). Any kind of extortion carried out against Singapore would just as easily turn against Malaysia.

So Malaysia could wipe out Singapore, but could never actually gain anything from it. One cannot seize another's "money making capability". Only Physical resources can be gained in war. So there's good reason for Iraq to invade Kuwait, it had Oil, while Singapore has nothing but Fish, and not much at that.

A much more profitable approach for Malaysia would be to try and leech some of Singapore's economic success and capital accumulation. I'm not sure how it could do this. I suppose it could charge higher tarriffs on the straits of Mallucca. But that could easily start off a trade war with Singapore, which it probably couldn't win.
Good point taken. But I think there is a real advantage of Singapore is the trade port for ships travelling down the Straits of Malacca and making a U-turn upwards to East Asia (China, Japan, ROK, HK) and vice versa. Invading Singapore would have gotten them a whole monopoly of the trade route instead of just half of it.

And from -what I have heard- (unconfirmed), ships prefer to restock/repair and get extras out of Singapore instead of Port Klang due to higher quality workmanship and service. I have no idea how much of this is true, but I know that the PSA has a pretty stringent guideline for their container and shipyard workers - no service failure / slacking or you're going to die a horrible career death, even for the smallest mistake.

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Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
However, if the Chinese government were to suddenly announce political reforms and reject Communism once and for all (not plausible but what if), I think that China would easily become the leading nation in Asia and soon after that, the world. We all saw how far Japan got, and that nation has less than 10% of China's population. The Chinese could do way better if it weren't for that stupid, morally bankrupt one-party system.
And the general population too. The moral bankruptcy has spread to the population treating it like a norm that it will take a giant paradigm shift to make it benign.

The closest dynasty, from what I little I know, to really being benign would be the Han dynasty. It is kind of weird that with 5000 years of experience of large-scale governing policies they have yet to polish up any of it.
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Old 2011-05-04, 22:09   Link #25
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What's wrong with being patriotic? Like Vexx said, cultural differences like festivals, holidays, etc define a country/nationality. There's nothing wrong with saying, "I enjoy being XYZ!"

Now, I'm not particularly proud to be an American in this day and age, but I still feel a sense of pride in (what it's worth) our collective patriotism and sense of identity. We're multicultural to the extreme. We began a trend across the globe. What isn't there to be proud of in something like that?

Now my heritage on the other hand...
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Old 2011-05-05, 00:48   Link #26
Seitsuki
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
The closest dynasty, from what I little I know, to really being benign would be the Han dynasty. It is kind of weird that with 5000 years of experience of large-scale governing policies they have yet to polish up any of it.
Well speaking as a Chinese, I kinda know where some of all the excess patrioticism is coming from. Way back then we had national pride/power etc but ever since sustained contact with the rest of the world we've been walked all over by just about everyone really so quite a bit of the nationalism is probably just a "we've finally got a ruling body which isn't a puppet and our country is finally influential so screw everything else" mentality. or at least that's what I would feel.

In any case I do think that patriotism is a good thing, able to unite a people and give a sense of purpose, but it's important to remember any celebration of uniqueness/difference will also inevitably breed conflict and possibly resentment. Everything in moderation and all that I guess.
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Old 2011-05-05, 01:54   Link #27
SSIlanya
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Originally Posted by Tenken's Smile View Post
I really don't see why many people say "I'm proud to be, say, Italian/ Chinese/French" blah... To me it's just vanity. You can't control where you're born or what you are. If someone bears excessive pride in his origin/nationality, it only alienates them from other people.
It is an identity and it unites the nation.
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Old 2011-05-05, 12:17   Link #28
LeoXiao
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
And the general population too. The moral bankruptcy has spread to the population treating it like a norm that it will take a giant paradigm shift to make it benign.
Yes, but considering this is China, the government will have to give in first.

Quote:
The closest dynasty, from what I little I know, to really being benign would be the Han dynasty. It is kind of weird that with 5000 years of experience of large-scale governing policies they have yet to polish up any of it.
The Tang Dynasty was like Han 2.0, and the Song Dynasty introduced a very efficient ability-based bureaucracy. The CCP mostly copied the Bolsheviks and Stalin in the civil war and Mao era, and now it rides on NEP-style policies to keep political power.

Quote:
Well speaking as a Chinese, I kinda know where some of all the excess patrioticism is coming from. Way back then we had national pride/power etc but ever since sustained contact with the rest of the world we've been walked all over by just about everyone really so quite a bit of the nationalism is probably just a "we've finally got a ruling body which isn't a puppet and our country is finally influential so screw everything else" mentality. or at least that's what I would feel.
While this is true, it's also not much of an excuse to say "hey other people have been giving us shit for a century, so let's discard everything our five-thousand year history has to tell us in favor of the theories of a couple Germans." Now, the CCP isn't even Communist since that ideology has been fully discredited, but it isn't really Chinese in essence either.
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Old 2011-05-05, 14:56   Link #29
Tenken's Smile
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Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
However, if the Chinese government were to suddenly announce political reforms and reject Communism once and for all (not plausible but what if), I think that China would easily become the leading nation in Asia and soon after that, the world. We all saw how far Japan got, and that nation has less than 10% of China's population. The Chinese could do way better if it weren't for that stupid, morally bankrupt one-party system.
Surely China has a better economy but in terms of etiquette and conscientiousness, it's far behind Japan. The Japanese overall can gain respect quickly and - as we can see their dignified & calm & selfless reaction to the tsunami-earthquake disaster - there're many things the world can learn from them. Their citizens are very conscientious. Even a Chinese reporter who went to Japan after the disaster made an observation that: "In 100 years, China will lead the world. But I'm not sure if our citizens will achieve the same level of ethics that the Japanese do."

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Yes, but considering this is China, the government will have to give in first.
Truth.

Last edited by Tenken's Smile; 2011-05-05 at 15:06.
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Old 2011-05-06, 18:40   Link #30
justinstrife
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I'm proud to be an American.

As for my heritage, I'm a mutt and have lived in the States my whole life. Whatever ancestry I have, is cool to read about, but has no bearing on who I am as a person.

Part German, Italian, British, Irish, Scottish, Swedish, etc, etc. But what does it even mean? I don't plan on visiting any of those countries(except maybe Germany once just to drive nurbhuring).
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Old 2011-05-06, 18:53   Link #31
DonQuigleone
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I'm proud to be an American.

As for my heritage, I'm a mutt and have lived in the States my whole life. Whatever ancestry I have, is cool to read about, but has no bearing on who I am as a person.

Part German, Italian, British, Irish, Scottish, Swedish, etc, etc. But what does it even mean? I don't plan on visiting any of those countries(except maybe Germany once just to drive nurbhuring).
Visit Ireland, we need your tourism dollars!

That goes for the rest of you guys too. You know those scenes in Fractale at the beginning with all the cliffs and picturesque stone walls? The real thing is better!

Just ignore the rain...
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Old 2011-05-08, 15:49   Link #32
Tenken's Smile
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Considering the Vietnamese beat China...not much chance of that happening.
Historical truth.
China also lost to Japan once.
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Old 2011-05-08, 16:01   Link #33
Zakoo
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Originally Posted by Tenken's Smile View Post
I really don't see why many people say "I'm proud to be, say, Italian/ Chinese/French" blah... To me it's just vanity. You can't control where you're born or what you are. If someone bears excessive pride in his origin/nationality, it only alienates them from other people.
Maah ... there are people who want to cling onto values they believe in. Of course it's because of how they were raised.
That's because of those values, highlighted by their country that we can say if we are pride of being XYZ.

True enough, I wonder if such a thing could exist if it wasn't by the ballyhoo of the estate, family, society and everything.
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Old 2011-05-08, 16:20   Link #34
Kyero Fox
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Screw all that, I'm not proud to be any nation or race.. I'm proud to be a nice person...
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Old 2011-05-08, 17:14   Link #35
Tenken's Smile
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"Screw all that, I'm not proud to be any nation or race.. I'm proud to be a nice person..."

+1
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Old 2011-05-09, 00:55   Link #36
LonelyGirl
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I don't find anything wrong with saying "I'm proud to be ____"
People love what they love and feel what they feel, who are we to criticize them?
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Old 2011-05-09, 09:51   Link #37
LeoXiao
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Originally Posted by Tenken's Smile View Post
Historical truth.
China also lost to Japan once.
Vietnam only beat China in the sense that they made the war drag on long enough that China didn't want to take the diplomatic flak. For a thousand years in pre-1900s history, though, Vietnam was a part of China or dominated by it.
Japan did beat China three times, but that was when the dynasty was old and corrupt, also in that time the Europeans had been messing China up for some time already.
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Old 2011-05-09, 13:37   Link #38
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I don't find anything wrong with saying "I'm proud to be ____"
People love what they love and feel what they feel, who are we to criticize them?
I agree, I don't think there is anything wrong with embracing your heritage or country. Proud to be part of a rich (and hopefully glorious) history and culture. Just like if you're a dependent of someone famous, you're proud of your linage.
Of course, you don't have to be proud of everything...America has done really horrendous things, but I'm still (generally) glad that I'm American.
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Old 2011-05-09, 22:52   Link #39
Vexx
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You can be proud to be an "_____________" and still have some serious problems with certain aspects of it. Too many zealots confuse lock-step worship with patriotism. Patriotism includes always working to make it better, culling the crap, removing the blotches.
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Old 2011-05-10, 01:11   Link #40
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You can be proud to be an "_____________" and still have some serious problems with certain aspects of it. Too many zealots confuse lock-step worship with patriotism. Patriotism includes always working to make it better, culling the crap, removing the blotches.
So no politician is a patriot. Sadly, this doesn't seem new or is in any way shocking.
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