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Old 2011-05-10, 07:53   Link #1101
VentAileron
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To add to what I said in the other thread, which hasn't been moved for some reason.

A drama for me uses suspense and makes you feel uncomfortable with the current state of affairs inside the story. Hanasaku Iroha usually tries to do exactly that (grandma slapping people around, cliffhangers at episode 2 and 4). But as being mentioned a few times, HanaIro doesn't have a really fast pacing making some events rather relaxing to watch.

I'm not one to decide where the line is between drama and slice-of-life. Apparently HanaIro lies somewhere in between. Therefore basing your argument on your own genre definition, like the person I quoted in the other thread did, just feels wrong to me. No offense to the person in question of course.
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Old 2011-05-10, 08:50   Link #1102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Slice of Life is not built on Drama.
Perhaps not, but I don't think that they're mutually exclusive with one another either. Life inevitably has some drama in it. I do not see a level of drama in Hana-Saku Iroha that goes beyond what you could conceivably see in real life.


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In fact I would even go so far as to say slice of life represents a status quo, whereas drama fundamentally represents change and action.
I disagree.

Consider a show like The Simpsons. There's loads of drama in each and every episode. Yet, by the end of most episodes, the status quo has been maintained and/or re-established. You don't need to have lasting change in order to have drama. And, indeed, much of the drama we see in Hanasaku Iroha is not lasting, or result in significant lasting change.


Quote:
That being said, besides the semi-realistic nature of the characters (teen girls doing teen things), the events are clearly not ordinary (just how often do you think children are abandoned due to debt?), and the consequences that result attempt to break the status quo the characters live in.
Only in the first episode. Ohana's life was turned upside down in the first episode, but since then, her life is now settling into a new reality as a worker at her grandmother's Inn, and a student at a more rural school.

Did anything in Episode 5 or 6 really change the status quo?


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So, no, Hanasaku Iroha is not a Slice of Life story...
To me, it very much is a Slice of Life story.


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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
Am I the only one who thinks a little too much attention is paid to pigeon-holing series into a specific genre? Really, does it make all that much difference what you call it?
It can be when a person goes to search for an anime to watch. Here classification can be important. For example, consider this page. "Slice of Life" is one of the genre options provided there.

This is what comes up when you search for just "Slice of Life" at that search page.

If we were to go through that list, and eliminate anything with drama in it, what exactly is left?

I certainly don't think that Hana-Saku Iroha would look out of place on the listing of Slice of Life shows there.


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A show is what it is - entertaining or not. Challenging or not, smart or not, interesting or not. Isn't that more important than the label?
Certainly. But how a show is labeled can effect...

1) The types and number of fans that a show can attract.

2) How likely a fan is to be satisfied with what he or she watches.

Part of the reason why I support Hana-Saku Iroha being considered a Slice of Life show (in addition to other genres, including drama and perhaps comedy) is because I think most people who like Slice of Life shows would like this anime, and for some of the same reasons that they like Slice of Life in general.

Speaking personally, I now find this anime to be a pretty pleasant and relaxing watch. I see plenty in this anime that reflects real life. I see a largely episodic structure to this anime that reflects day-to-day living. I see no major fantastical elements.


Quote:

Besides - most of the best shows defy easy categorization anyway. For every good show like Ao no Exorcist that neatly fits into a genre bucket, there are probably ten good ones that don't. HanaIro falls under that category, IMHO.
I agree, actually. My own view is that most anime shows do not neatly fit in one genre alone, but rather have multiple genre appeals at the same time. So I'm not saying that Hana-Saku Iroha is just slice of life, but rather that slice of life is one of the genres that it can be justifiably classified under.


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Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post

At the same time, I would consider some of what goes on in Ohana's life to be very typical. Like gossiping with her friends, cleaning up the inn, cooking food or taking out the trash, texting with a long-distance friend, etc. About half of the time, these events are not overplayed to create drama. They're just routine, procedural tasks Ohana does like every other human being on the planet. Different setting and different life, you say. Yet still typical compared to those around Ohana.
Very well said.


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There really isn't.
Here is where I disagree with you the most. Just about everybody I know has had significant familial, romance, work, and/or school drama in life.


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Sure, people do. Usually, it's unintentional drama - people would rather avoid struggling in school or arguing with the family.
Of course. Just like Ohana would rather avoid the drama of having Minchi shout "die" at her all the time. Ohana tries to establish pleasant, friendly, stable relations with pretty much everybody she meets. So Ohana isn't searching out drama so much as drama is naturally coming to her.


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I see what you mean here. Hanasaku Iroha seems to focus on the special, unique, exciting part of Ohana's life: Abandoning the sheltered past, going to a new high school and working with people she's meeting for the first time.
Real life people go through changes like that all the time.


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A true slice-of-life story would be how Ohana lived before moving to the inn; Ohana lamented on how boring and undramatic her life was before moving.
With precious few exceptions, no piece of entertainment is going to intentional try to be boring and undramatic. That goes for slice of life stories as well.


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I'm not ready to say Hanairo completely abandons the slice-of-life model, though. Contrary to what you say, some of Ohana's experiences are pretty ordinary.
Agreed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kagayaki
In contrast, I would say that Clannad isn't a slice of life because it focuses on the changes that happen in characters and their relationships. This seems like the direction Hanasaku Iroha is going in too.
Real life is not static. It is not completely lacking drama. So why should slice of life be static and completely lack drama?


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Talking about genres is a good way to compare and contrast shows though, so I don't think it's harmful.
I agree with you here.
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Old 2011-05-10, 09:38   Link #1103
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Consider a show like The Simpsons.
Terrible example; The Simpsons is a Satire Comedy. Satires require a steel status quo.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
To me, it very much is a Slice of Life story.
Why? Because it's possible? Are you saying that the Slice of Life label really just means that the show is realistic? If that's true, then the label is entirely useless in my mind.

Especially when I looked at the ANN list of Slice of Life shows and found Sound of the Sky among them, which, since it has elements of SciFi/Fantasy, I would have never thought of as Slice of Life.

So now I guess we can apply the label to anything that has someone who has a life. Yay.
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Old 2011-05-10, 09:49   Link #1104
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Personally I don't think Slice of life needs to mean actual real life like situations or things we actually expect can occur in real life, beacuse let's face it no matter what genre of manga we read its impossible to read a slice of life that we can say will actually happen in real life. Take Kimi no Iru Machi, as far as setting goes its very life like without any fantasy or sci/fi but still is it likely for a stranger to suddenly stay at your house and you fall in love.

Perhaps its a 1 in a million chance but what is the line we draw between fantasy and reality, if there is even a chance perhaps it can be consider Slice of Life since the situation in which she is living is not unlikely beacuse such typical people may exist. Perhaps not in the situation we see in Hanasaku Iroha or many others of the slice of life genre but perhaps because the characters are given emotions that actual people who if experiencing life that such situation may feel.

Well thats just my oppinion from a TOK perspective XD
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Old 2011-05-10, 09:49   Link #1105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spawnofthejudge View Post
since it has elements of SciFi/Fantasy, I would have never thought of as Slice of Life.

So you wouldn't consider Aria slice of life?
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Old 2011-05-10, 09:59   Link #1106
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Does it matter what we think Slice of Life means... If the Japenese use the label Slice of Life to simply classify the anime slice of life because in contains a "slice" of life such as schooling, romance and what not normal people experience in normal they life, than by the Japanese labeling use Aria is somewhat Slice of Life.

In others words it is not what we think Slice of Life means but who the producers see what Slice of Life means. Its in the gray area.
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Old 2011-05-10, 10:31   Link #1107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spawnofthejudge View Post
Terrible example;
No, it's not.

On this particular point, all I need to do is show that it's possible to have both a lot of drama and still maintain the status quo.

Satire or not, the Simpsons show that it is possible to do that.


Quote:
Satires require a steel status quo.
And some on this thread are arguing that slice of life also requires a steel status quo.

So if this is something that satire and slice of life share in common, is it not in fact fitting to use a satire example to prove the point that drama does not necessitate changing the status quo?


Quote:

Why? Because it's possible? Are you saying that the Slice of Life label really just means that the show is realistic?
No, I'm saying that it means that the level of conflict and drama (this in particular) you see in Slice of Life is not beyond what can be frequently found in the real lives of everyday people.

In my mind, Slice of Life is the opposite of Epic (in the traditional pre-internet sense of the term). "Epic" operates on a grand scale, often including explosive conflicts between fantastical opponents.

Slice of Life is grounded in a more normal scale, and in the day-to-day. And that is what we have here in Hana-Saku Iroha, imo.
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Old 2011-05-10, 11:14   Link #1108
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Originally Posted by BladeEntity View Post
In others words it is not what we think Slice of Life means but who the producers see what Slice of Life means. Its in the gray area.
That's kind of why I generally just try to think of something as "more" or less" slice of life instead of "is" or "isn't",there's a few that you can tell aren't,there's a few that definatly are,and there's a whole bunch in between.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R
Perhaps not, but I don't think that they're mutually exclusive with one another either.
Well,at least they're not to people who voted in the latest animesuki awards,Cross Game won best drama as well as placing 2nd in the slice of life category.
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Old 2011-05-10, 11:29   Link #1109
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Originally Posted by totoum View Post
So you wouldn't consider Aria slice of life?
I wouldn't have, no. But clearly the term means something other than what I thought to all of you.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
No, I'm saying that it means that the level of conflict and drama (this in particular) you see in Slice of Life is not beyond what can be frequently found in the real lives of everyday people.

In my mind, Slice of Life is the opposite of Epic (in the traditional pre-internet sense of the term). "Epic" operates on a grand scale, often including explosive conflicts between fantastical opponents.

Slice of Life is grounded in a more normal scale, and in the day-to-day. And that is what we have here in Hana-Saku Iroha, imo.
And I wouldn't have thought of Epic as a genre classification. So I guess that's my rub:

I don't think Slice of Life, as it's being presented here by those who think Hana-Saku is one, is a genre. Merely a descriptive.
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Old 2011-05-10, 12:24   Link #1110
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Originally Posted by spawnofthejudge View Post
I don't think Slice of Life, as it's being presented here by those who think Hana-Saku is one, is a genre. Merely a descriptive.
And that's precisely one of the roots of the debate.

On one side you have those who consider Slice of Life as a genre (as in drama, romance).

On the other side you have those who consider Slice of Life as a tag, a description, an element (or group of elements).

On one side you have those who think a show must keep its status quo to be considered "Slice of Life".

On the other side you have those who think that a show with a moving plot can still cohabit with the Slice of Life label.

Since there isn't a point of convergence in the middle, this ideological "conflict" most likely won't ever end.

Personally, I like to consider slice of life those shows where elements of daily happenings (such as eating, taking a walk, reading a book, gardening etc.) are shown on regular basis, and to me it can coexist with a moving plot. In this sense, Hanasuka Iroha to me definitely belongs to the Slice of Life category.

But all in all, I think everyone will (rightly so) keep their own convictions, the ones they personally perceive as better fitting for their own standards. One may rather go by the book definition, or take a more free approach towards it because at the end, nothing changes as long as you enjoy the ride. My 2 cents.
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Old 2011-05-10, 12:50   Link #1111
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The most fascinating thing about this slice-of-life debate is not the debate itself, but the persistence of it. It seems to go on forever and ever, disappears for a while, then pops up on another shows thread and the whole thing repeats itself almost word for word. Who would have thought a 19th Century French theatrical expression would have such traction with anime?

You want slice of life? Go watch a few episodes of "Curb Your Enthusiasm". That meets the description a lot better than most anime do.
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Old 2011-05-10, 13:02   Link #1112
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I fail to see the point of the slice-of-life posts, the show is what it is; is it so crucial to spend our time debating whether that fits one genre or the another?
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Old 2011-05-10, 13:02   Link #1113
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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
The most fascinating thing about this slice-of-life debate is not the debate itself, but the persistence of it. It seems to go on forever and ever, disappears for a while, then pops up on another shows thread and the whole thing repeats itself almost word for word.
But with different people? I don't remember doing this myself.

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Originally Posted by Pellissier
Since there isn't a point of convergence in the middle, this ideological "conflict" most likely won't never end.
Double negation?

Well public forum discussions tend to be quite fruitless if your goal is to convince, because everyone needs to talk to too many people at the same time. So you cannot go to deep into one subject with one person without being told 'go do that with private messages'.

Still, I didn't tackle this subject for nothing. Forum debates is a quick way to know how different people think about a certain subject.

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Old 2011-05-10, 13:25   Link #1114
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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
The most fascinating thing about this slice-of-life debate is not the debate itself, but the persistence of it. It seems to go on forever and ever, disappears for a while, then pops up on another shows thread and the whole thing repeats itself almost word for word. Who would have thought a 19th Century French theatrical expression would have such traction with anime?
Anime does slice of life exceptionally well, in my opinion. That's probably why the term "slice of life" has such traction with anime audiences.

It can be difficult and tricky to make mundane daily happenings (eating, taking a walk, reading a book, gardening, etc...) seem interesting, or even simply enjoyable to watch. Yet, anime often manages to pull this off quite nicely, and sometimes without even needing much humor to do it.

This is to anime's credit. It is also to Hana-Saku Iroha's credit, imo. Why not speak well of what a show does well?

I'm not just saying that Hana-Saku Iroha is a slice of life anime. I'm saying it's a good slice of life anime, and it deserves credit for that, imo.


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I fail to see the point of the slice-of-life posts, the show is what it is; is it so crucial to spend our time debating whether that fits one genre or the another?
What would you rather discuss? It's not like this thread was bustling with activity before the Slice of Life discussion was shifted over here.

In fact, this thread has really taken off over the past 16 hours or so, and on the strength of this slice of life discussion. Clearly some people would like to discuss this, which is better then total thread inactivity, imo.
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Old 2011-05-10, 13:33   Link #1115
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Real life is not static. It is not completely lacking drama. So why should slice of life be static and completely lack drama?
It's not that it's static or completely lacking in drama. It's a matter of emphasis (which makes for a horribly subjective definition, but thus are all genre definitions ).

K-on and Aria both have change in them. Seasons come and go, people graduate and get older, get promoted, and retire, etc. The emphasis, however, is on the passing of time and the mono no aware, rather than the drama or suspense of specific events or changes in the characters themselves.

In Clannad After Story, for contrast, (putting the last epsiode aside for a moment), you have changes that happen in many people's lives (loved ones dying, having children, geting married, etc.), but these events are working as part of one continuous narrative, and the emphasis is on the drama of the events and the changes in characters.

It seems to me that so far in Hanasaku Iroha, the emphasis isn't on the seasons and the passing of time, but rather on the drama of the events and the characters changing as a result of them.
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Old 2011-05-10, 13:40   Link #1116
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In fact, this thread has really taken off over the past 16 hours or so, and on the strength of this slice of life discussion. Clearly some people would like to discuss this, which is better then total thread inactivity, imo.
Exactly. In fact, you can't get much more generic when disucssing art than trying to define genre.
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Old 2011-05-10, 13:48   Link #1117
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Originally Posted by Kagayaki View Post
It's not that it's static or completely lacking in drama. It's a matter of emphasis (which makes for a horribly subjective definition, but thus are all genre definitions ).

K-on and Aria both have change in them. Seasons come and go, people graduate and get older, get promoted, and retire, etc. The emphasis, however, is on the passing of time and the mono no aware, rather than the drama or suspense of specific events or changes in the characters themselves.
As it pertains to K-On, I'd have to disagree with that.

Spoiler for K-On spoilers:


Yes, there is a sense of the passing of time in K-On, but I think we'll probably get a sense of that in Hana-Saku Iroha as well as it gradually progresses. I suspect, for example, that by or near the end of this anime, we'll see Ohana start to reflect on her time at the Inn, and what it means to her. In so doing, there would be a sense of the passing of time in this anime.


Quote:
In Clannad After Story, for contrast, (putting the last epsiode aside for a moment), you have changes that happen in many people's lives (loved ones dying, having children, geting married, etc.), but these events are working as part of one continuous narrative, and the emphasis is on the drama of the events and the changes in characters.
I simply and respectfully think that you're raising a false dichotomy here between slice of life and drama. I don't see any reason why anime can't belong to both genres at the same time. I would argue that Clannad: After Story is an anime that does belong to both genres at the same time.


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Exactly. In fact, you can't get much more generic when disucssing art than trying to define genre.
Moving the slice of life discussion over to this thread was definitely the right thing to do, imo. Kudos to the mods for that.
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Old 2011-05-10, 14:17   Link #1118
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Double negation?
Yeah, that's what you get when you modify half sentence and let the other half is it is (I originally put will never, then changed the "will" to "won't").

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I think we'll probably get a sense of that in Hana-Saku Iroha as well as it gradually progresses. I suspect, for example, that by or near the end of this anime, we'll see Ohana start to reflect on her time at the Inn, and what it means to her. In so doing, there would be a sense of the passing of time in this anime.
Even as of now, 6 episodes, there have already been some signs that time is going on in Hanasaku Iroha:

- Ohana gets her first monthly salary.
- The consultant (whom we saw in episode 1) returns stating she comes to the inn once a month.

Both are very distinctive signs that at least a full month has passed since the beginning of the series.
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Old 2011-05-10, 14:29   Link #1119
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for example, the giant heron attacking Ohana. The heron serves as an improbable source of comedy; normally, birds don't attack people. It's awesome - and real life isn't quite as awesome.
You've obviously never walked too close to a turkey or goose, then. And for turkeys, that often means within eyesight. Don't forget that birds evolved from/are related to dinosaurs, because they sure don't.

As far as slice of life goes, the "definition" has always been murky but I'd say it applies to IroHana simply because there's no real over-arching plot (yet)... though in the end it might turn out to be more coming of age. Kind of early to call it I think.
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Old 2011-05-10, 14:30   Link #1120
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Well, for the record, I never said anime didn't do slice of life well, or that people shouldn't post about it - of course they should. I just said that, for me, the evolution of the generic debate and how it keeps reappearing in series after series is more interesting than the specifics of the debate - which tend to sound more or less identical no matter which show is being discussed.

I do find it interesting to see Clannad mentioned in this context, because it doesn't come close to meeting my personal definition of "slice of life". It's far too melodramatic, and the focus is on larger conflicts and crises, rather than the day to day incidentals. I think the first season of Minami-ke and Sketch Book are two shows that come pretty close to meeting my Platonic ideal of slice-of-life, albeit in different ways.

FWIW, I don't really think HanaIro is a "pure" slice-of-life series - in fact, based on the shifting tone so far and the lack of an original source to serve as a guide for where it will go, I don't think it's safe to say just what it is yet. Like many series I suspect it will continue to bridge several genres, slice-of-life being just a part of it. If forced at gunpoint I'd call this a "coming-of-age" if I had to name a genre. But it's already been several and I don't particularly care if it continues to do so. Seirei no Moribito turned into a mostly slice-of-life show for its middle third - it certainly wasn't one before or after, but for that stretch of episodes it was as good as slice-of-life gets. That transition between styles didn't bother me at all.

One overly simplistic way to capture the slice-of-life question might be to look at "Seinfeld". I personally think that show can be broken down into two parts - the first when it was a great show, the second when it wasn't (it correlates roughly to the time when Larry David left as head writer, but that's another discussion). It was even spoofed in the "Jerry" arc when they were writing the pilot for NBC. George (Larry David) insisted that it be a show "about nothing".

Quote:
George: What did you do today?
Russell Dalrymple (NBC President): I got up, had coffee, and went to work.
George: That's a show!
But NBC wanted "stories". So what did we end up with? Someone hits Jerry's car, they don't have insurance, so the judge sentences them to become his butler. Ironically that's pretty much how "Seinfeld" played out - while L.D. was there you had shows like "The Chinese Restaurant" and "The Parking Garage", which were basically shows about nothing. "Slice of life". After he left, you started to get convoluted and silly storylines that weren't really slice-of-life at all, and that's when the show stopped being nearly so funny.

If you want to look at HanaIro as a pure slice-of-life, maybe the third episode - where the show tried way too hard - as getting their "Butler Story" out of the way early. Except, unlike "Seinfeld", HanaIro is also a bit of a romance, coming-of-age and melodrama too (among others). There are lots of larger things and serious things happening that need to evolve over the course of two cours. So those shows that are "about something" aren't inconsistent with what the show is - it's just that they have to be good, and the third ep wasn't.
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