AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Hanasaku Iroha

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2011-05-10, 14:33   Link #1121
Kagayaki
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Boston
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I simply and respectfully think that you're raising a false dichotomy here between slice of life and drama. I don't see any reason why anime can't belong to both genres at the same time. I would argue that Clannad: After Story is an anime that does belong to both genres at the same time.
Well, as with most things, it's a continuum. I guess what I'm saying is that slice of life and drama aren't completely independent of each other. Rather, it seems more accurate to me to say the farther you get towards one, the less you have of the other. So I'd agree with you in the sense that After Story isn't all the way towards the drama end. But it's not 100% drama and 100% SOL. It's more like 70/30 or something, IMO

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
As it pertains to K-On, I'd have to disagree with that.

Spoiler for K-On spoilers:


Yes, there is a sense of the passing of time in K-On, but I think we'll probably get a sense of that in Hana-Saku Iroha as well as it gradually progresses. I suspect, for example, that by or near the end of this anime, we'll see Ohana start to reflect on her time at the Inn, and what it means to her. In so doing, there would be a sense of the passing of time in this anime.
Clearly, we both watched the same show and got different things out of it or something . The girls got better at playing together as a band, but there certainly wasn't any change in relationships in K-on like I foresee there being between Ohana and Minko. Most of the changes in K-on are skill development (Yui getting better at playing the guitar, Mio and Ritsu getting better at acting, etc.), rather than changing character traits or learning life lessons.

To give a more specific example, in the latest episode of Hanasaku Iroha, for example, there's this continuing message that it's good to be working hard to change things even if your changes don't actually end up benefiting you much in the long run. You get the sense that Ohana is learning from this, and that the actions of the consultant and the grandmother are working towards some thematic/character development point in the episode.

In K-on, they would just have Sawako dress up the girls in maid outfits, and that dress-up would be the point of the scene in and of itself. If they're studying for a test, rehearsing for the play, or practicing for a concert, the scenes are being shown to show those parts of the girls' lives, not to serve some specific greater dramatic or thematic point.
__________________
Kagayaki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-05-10, 15:30   Link #1122
Deconstructor
Crossdressing Menmatic
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Where you live... the question is, do you see me?
Age: 21
There is some importance to classifying genres. First, when people look for anime they like to watch, they often turn to categorization as a means of finding styles they enjoy. For example:

Friend: I am watching anime for the first time. I like slice-of-life. Know any good ones?
Google: Well, Hanasaku Iroha is classified on Wikipedia a slice-of-life anime.
Friend: Sweet.

Second, there is an individual need to keep these genres consistent throughout time. As we see in this debate, slice-of-life has become quite the general umbrella term. Yet as people offer up their own definitions and arguments as to what slice-of-life truly means, the meaning slides and shifts. What is slice-of-life today may be considered coming-of-age tomorrow. To provide a parallel example, historians are concerned with keeping the facts accurate. However, unlike facts, genres have been up for debate since their inception.

Indeed, people often attain a "feel" for the genre by watching works classified in that genre. If Hanasaku Iroha contains elements of slice-of-life but doesn't quite fit completely as a slice-of-life anime, then I think it's important to realize what and where the genre boundaries are. Even more importantly, if Hanasaku Iroha starts redefining the genre entirely - perhaps by introducing elements from other genres - then there exists a responsibility to update our own definitions of slice-of-life. Or at least to recognize when the genre itself is shifting. Wouldn't you say science fiction nowadays is more focused on technology and giant laser beams, whereas in the past it was more about the philosophical questions of outer space? (As outer space was yet to be fully discovered back then, and technology nowhere near as advanced) Well, it's always up for debate.

There are more reasons, but I'm steering way off topic so let's get back to Hanairo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kagayaki View Post
To give a more specific example, in the latest episode of Hanasaku Iroha, for example, there's this continuing message that it's good to be working hard to change things even if your changes don't actually end up benefiting you much in the long run. You get the sense that Ohana is learning from this, and that the actions of the consultant and the grandmother are working towards some thematic/character development point in the episode.
I would agree with you. Meaning is given to otherwise procedural and routine events - this is the difference I would put between slice-of-life and coming-of-age. In a growing up story, significance is placed on each event; there is a deeper, underlying meaning to the main character's experiences. In slice-of-life, I feel a lack of importance from each moment. Instead, the show takes typical, ordinary experiences and presents them as nothing more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulcannis View Post
You've obviously never walked too close to a turkey or goose, then. And for turkeys, that often means within eyesight. Don't forget that birds evolved from/are related to dinosaurs, because they sure don't.
I admit, I have not walked up to a turkey. Mainly because finding a turkey on the streets in New York City is rather rare, but it has happened before. Hypothetically, say I did see a turkey; I would have not walked closer to it nonetheless. Perhaps I was fearful the turkey would attack me. Most people do have this fear, and usually stay away from large birds. But Ohana is special. (Extra emphasis on special!) She'll try to get past the heron to rescue Tohru.

Quote:
As far as slice of life goes, the "definition" has always been murky but I'd say it applies to IroHana simply because there's no real over-arching plot (yet)... though in the end it might turn out to be more coming of age. Kind of early to call it I think.
I'm going to start calling this series Irohana from now on. I hope I confuse people when I speak of Anohana as well. Erm, I cannot say with 100% accuracy the plot will lean toward coming-of-age, but I would say what I have seen so far is about growing up in a different environment with different people. As james0246 said, there is an importance placed on this slice of Ohana's life. Maybe it marks the period Ohana turns from a spoiled adolescent into a mature woman.

Or maybe she dies in the end. We should call it slice-of-death, then!
Deconstructor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-05-10, 15:31   Link #1123
Haak
F**k my life...
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 23
I can't help but wonder if Slice of Life is merely "Drama-lite", which i feel is what HSI is.
__________________
MyAnimeList
Avatar - Gekkan Shoujo Nozaki-kun
Signature - Gundam Reconguista in G
Haak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-05-10, 17:04   Link #1124
Guardian Enzo
Seishu's Ace
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Kagurazaka, Tokyo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
I can't help but wonder if Slice of Life is merely "Drama-lite", which i feel is what HSI is.
Well, the definition is certainly subjective, as many have pointed out. But that doesn't resemble any definition I subscribe to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
There is some importance to classifying genres. First, when people look for anime they like to watch, they often turn to categorization as a means of finding styles they enjoy. For example:

Friend: I am watching anime for the first time. I like slice-of-life. Know any good ones?
Google: Well, Hanasaku Iroha is classified on Wikipedia a slice-of-life anime.
Friend: Sweet.
I agree with you to some extent - but you've also described exactly what I think part of the problem is. Genres are important for search tags. People aren't search tags. People should decide what they watch, not search tags. The synopsis should play a much bigger role in the decision that the search tag does. If someone never gets past whatever the search engine pulls up when they plug the genre in, that's a problem.
Guardian Enzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-05-10, 19:34   Link #1125
NaweG
Just some guy
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Antonio, TX
Age: 52
Per this whole discussion of slice-of-life versus drama versus what have you...

May I recommend that we hold off until we get at least HALFWAY through the series and there might be a bit more evidence of where we are going. Heck, by the 1/4 point of Madoka (which is about where we are here) you were just getting an indication that it wasn't a traditional Magical Girl Series (though in a very dramatic fashion).

I'd say by episode 12 we should have a bit clearer indication of where this one is going, and then be able to give a conclusion to the extent one is needed.

I would point out, however, that there does seem to be a movement to trying to mix-up traditional ideas of what a story is as part of coming up with something new. So perhaps all of y'all are correct in some sense.

My .02 worth...
__________________
NaweG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-05-10, 21:50   Link #1126
Pocari_Sweat
Basketball > Chickens
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Australia
Age: 26
Send a message via AIM to Pocari_Sweat Send a message via MSN to Pocari_Sweat
I'm getting the impression that some people are associating slice of life = generic boring genre = therefore bad, when it isn't the case at all. Reminds me of the "pretentious" debate that was on the General Anime forums a month or so ago.

From how I see it, drama, comedy, romance, coming of age/social commentary and slice of life are not mutually inclusive or exclusive. The genres can exist separately or co-existingely. Some people seem to differentiate drama and slice of life or clump comedy and slice of life together when in my opinion it's completely wrong. I would label Eve no Jikan for example a science-fiction drama, whilst this season's Steins;gate would be a science fiction comedy whilst AnoHana a slice of life drama.

This anime? It just a splurge of genres - slice of life, comedy, drama, coming of age/social commentary, a bit of romance. Because of that, it probably attracts the most amount of people (and hence is arguably the season's most popular, but not necessarily the best in quality) because there's likely something that someone will like in the series.
__________________
Pocari_Sweat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-05-10, 22:30   Link #1127
Triple_R
Center Attraction
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Age: 33
Send a message via AIM to Triple_R
I want to say that I completely 100% agree with everything that acejem just wrote.

In addition to that...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kagayaki View Post
Well, as with most things, it's a continuum. I guess what I'm saying is that slice of life and drama aren't completely independent of each other. Rather, it seems more accurate to me to say the farther you get towards one, the less you have of the other. So I'd agree with you in the sense that After Story isn't all the way towards the drama end. But it's not 100% drama and 100% SOL. It's more like 70/30 or something, IMO
I see what you're saying here. If I had to choose one genre, and one genre alone, to classify Clannad: After Story under, "drama" would be it. In that sense, I agree with you. I would personally say that Clannad: After Story is first drama, then slice of life, then romance, then comedy, in that order.
__________________
Triple_R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-05-10, 23:04   Link #1128
Undertaker
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: U.S.
Wow, I didn't think the post I created created that big of a stir.


Truth be told though, I never knew what "slice of live" is defined in literary genre. Now I did some research, I can see that HanaIro is no a "tradition" slice of life story.


However, just like everything else, things evolve. As someone mentioned in prior post, "slice of life" has become more of a tag and became literally a "slice" of life.

I blame this also on culture difference. As I said, base on my East Asian background, shows like HanaIro are consider as "healing" type of shows. These shows, they have relatively little drama, character-centric, normal life, relaxing to watch, up-lifting, little-or-no fantasy element, etc. And the most important part is that the series make you feel good and calm (warm and fussy if you well) after you've watched it. The closest description and genre I can find in English was "slice" of life, and I'm guess that's what most people ends up using to describe these shows.

I mean even now, if you go to an Chinese or Japanese bookshop, Fantasy and Sci-fi are still group as one genre because traditionally they weren't separated like western and History section often includes historic fictions and folklores as well.

It's probably better for me to list some of these so-called "healing" series and see what you guys think, and coincidentally most of these series are describe as slice of life in ANN or Wiki:

Kaleido Star
K-on
Minami-ke
Azumanga Daioh
Genshiken
Strawberry Mashmarrow
Maria-sama go Miteru
Wolf and Spice
Bamboo Blade
Luky Star
Natsume Yuujinchou
Kimi ni Todoke
Shuffle
Aria
Kara no Kyōkai
Clannad



As you can see, some of them actually have tons of fantasy element, while some are clearly comedy in English genre but they are all consider as "healing" type anime because they fits the biggest criteria, hell, some would even put One Piece into this genre. Compares to them, HanaIro is the traditional of these types of anime and that was what I was trying to saying in my earlier post refuting people who feel the pace of the series is hurting this series.
__________________
Undertaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-05-10, 23:55   Link #1129
Malkuth
Banned
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: London
Age: 34
Send a message via MSN to Malkuth Send a message via Skype™ to Malkuth
ANN and wiki n00bs

Anyway, fitting shows in one or another genre is pointless, oversimplifying, and OT MOst of the posts on the subject, overgeneralise an already generic, if not ill-defined, category

@3xR: Bumping the post count with posts irrelevant to the show itself is just sad
Malkuth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-05-11, 01:17   Link #1130
Reckoner
Bittersweet Distractor
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
ANN and wiki n00bs

Anyway, fitting shows in one or another genre is pointless, oversimplifying, and OT MOst of the posts on the subject, overgeneralise an already generic, if not ill-defined, category

@3xR: Bumping the post count with posts irrelevant to the show itself is just sad
Seeing as this thread is the "generic discussion thread" for Hanasaku Iroha, and that there isn't a speicifc thread for this show that says "all discussion regarding what genre this show falls in post here," means that the place to post such opinions and thoughts is the "generic discussion" thread.

The genre of a show falls under the outlined definition of "generic." It is that which isn't specific, and regarding the show itself. Meaning, this is perfectly on topic.

Many people here find this discussion interesting and actively want to discuss it. I'd appreciate if you wouldn't belittle us for wanting to discuss something of interest here. You may find the discussion pointless, but if you feel so, offer a better topic and we will discuss it if we find it has enough interest and "meaning" for us to discuss.
Reckoner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-05-11, 01:23   Link #1131
Undertaker
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: U.S.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
ANN and wiki n00bs


What's wrong with wiki and ANN?

As many faults as they might be, that's where majority of people get their info nowadays.

BTW, in case you didn't know, recent studies (As early as 2005) has the accuracy of Wikipedia information on par if not surpass traditional Encyclopedias including Britannica.


There's a old Chinese saying; Three random craftsmen beats one Zhuge Lang. (if you don't know who he is, go look it up in Wiki )



Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
Anyway, fitting shows in one or another genre is pointless, oversimplifying, and OT MOst of the posts on the subject, overgeneralise an already generic, if not ill-defined, category


Have you even read through this thread? As people already pointed out, categorizing has its own importance and benefit.

Unless you are ignorant, there are people out there only watching similar shows or reading similar books.

Besides, if it's as point-less as you said, then there WON'T be those genre for us to try to fit it in to begin with......



Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
@3xR: Bumping the post count with posts irrelevant to the show itself is just sad

Agree, for someone patronizing another as "sad" for replying a post, I find that said someone for bumping the post counts with a post that not only irrelevant to the show but irrelevant to the current discussion even sadder...


Edit:

BTW, Reckoner, you beat me to the punch as I was replying....
__________________

Last edited by Undertaker; 2011-05-11 at 02:13.
Undertaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-05-11, 02:06   Link #1132
totoum
Gamer
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 26
Send a message via MSN to totoum
Quote:
Originally Posted by acejem View Post
This anime? It just a splurge of genres - slice of life, comedy, drama, coming of age/social commentary, a bit of romance. Because of that, it probably attracts the most amount of people (and hence is arguably the season's most popular, but not necessarily the best in quality) because there's likely something that someone will like in the series.
I'd just like to add to this that while AnoHana is getting all the Cross Game comparaisons ( and rightfully so considering all the similarities in the plot),structure wise I feel that Hanasaku Iroha is actually the show that has "Mari Okada trying to do Adachi" by that I mean that even if the plot is nothing like what you'd find in a Adachi work the mix of a whole bunch of different genres definatly is.Okada might not have mastered the art of mixing all those as much as Adachi has but the intent is there.
__________________
totoum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-05-11, 02:09   Link #1133
Undertaker
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: U.S.
Speaking of Anohana, instead of comparing it to Adachi's Cross Game, I feel it's more similar to his current Q&A or a mix in between two, albeit in a larger scale.

BTW, Aoihana, Cross Game, Q&A are all consider to by healing-types...
__________________
Undertaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-05-11, 03:52   Link #1134
Unknown Soldier
:D
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertaker View Post
Wow, I didn't think the post I created created that big of a stir.


Truth be told though, I never knew what "slice of live" is defined in literary genre. Now I did some research, I can see that HanaIro is no a "tradition" slice of life story.


However, just like everything else, things evolve. As someone mentioned in prior post, "slice of life" has become more of a tag and became literally a "slice" of life.

I blame this also on culture difference. As I said, base on my East Asian background, shows like HanaIro are consider as "healing" type of shows. These shows, they have relatively little drama, character-centric, normal life, relaxing to watch, up-lifting, little-or-no fantasy element, etc. And the most important part is that the series make you feel good and calm (warm and fussy if you well) after you've watched it. The closest description and genre I can find in English was "slice" of life, and I'm guess that's what most people ends up using to describe these shows.

I mean even now, if you go to an Chinese or Japanese bookshop, Fantasy and Sci-fi are still group as one genre because traditionally they weren't separated like western and History section often includes historic fictions and folklores as well.

It's probably better for me to list some of these so-called "healing" series and see what you guys think, and coincidentally most of these series are describe as slice of life in ANN or Wiki:

Kaleido Star
K-on
Minami-ke
Azumanga Daioh
Genshiken
Strawberry Mashmarrow
Maria-sama go Miteru
Wolf and Spice
Bamboo Blade
Luky Star
Natsume Yuujinchou
Kimi ni Todoke
Shuffle
Aria
Kara no Kyōkai
Clannad



As you can see, some of them actually have tons of fantasy element, while some are clearly comedy in English genre but they are all consider as "healing" type anime because they fits the biggest criteria, hell, some would even put One Piece into this genre. Compares to them, HanaIro is the traditional of these types of anime and that was what I was trying to saying in my earlier post refuting people who feel the pace of the series is hurting this series.
Wait, what?
Unknown Soldier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-05-11, 04:14   Link #1135
VentAileron
Aha~ha~ha~
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertaker View Post
I blame this also on culture difference. As I said, base on my East Asian background, shows like HanaIro are consider as "healing" type of shows. These shows, they have relatively little drama, character-centric, normal life, relaxing to watch, up-lifting, little-or-no fantasy element, etc. And the most important part is that the series make you feel good and calm (warm and fussy if you well) after you've watched it.

...

It's probably better for me to list some of these so-called "healing" series and see what you guys think, and coincidentally most of these series are describe as slice of life in ANN or Wiki:

...
Shuffle
Aria
Kara no Kyōkai
Clannad
No way! Are you mixing up the Greece tragedy with your so-called 'healing'-series? Or are they one and the same thing? When I hear 'healing' in our current context, I can't stop thinking about Aristotle's notion of 'catharsis' when talking about tragedies. I'm Chinese myself, but I've lived abroad for most of my life. I doubt Clannad can be considered to have 'relatively little drama' and to be 'relaxing to watch'. Quite on the contrary if you ask me.

It just seems to be that your healing-series bookshelf is everything that doesn't fit into Fantasy, Action or Sci-Fi. Which means it's something like drama, slice-of-life and comedy combined.

Last edited by VentAileron; 2011-05-11 at 04:31.
VentAileron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-05-11, 07:16   Link #1136
Irisiel
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
I thought slice-of-life meant just exactly that; a slice of someone's life. Basically, the plot is the fact that the characters are living and going about their everyday lives, and that in the beginning of the series, we can imagine them having had a similar, if, slightly different life, and at the end we can imagine so as well.

Contrast Kaleido✭Star, where the plot leans heavily on the perils of Kaleido✭Stage and Sora's promotion to a star, as well as her fight to keep the title. If the series started at the second season, I would call it slice-of-life, since it is simply Sora living the life of a Kaleido✭Star.

Then take ARIA, where we know that Akari started out rowing gondolas and at the end, she kept rowing gondolas (which was the most important part of the job). Unlike Sora's goal-oriented and single-minded pursuit of the top that started in the very first episode, Akari takes her time to amble about and sometimes almost forgetting that she's supposed to aim for a promotion.

Slice-of-Life takes time to look at both extraordinary and mundane parts of the characters' lives from different perspectives (like the optical illusions with the statues holding up the island in ARIA). And most of all, it takes time looking at the less in-your-face aspects of those characters' lives (something Kaleido✭Star lacked, almost every part of Sora's life had the impact of a planet-sized meteor hitting the earth, with a few notable exceptions when the episodes focused on side-characters instead).
__________________
Irisiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-05-11, 07:24   Link #1137
Undertaker
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: U.S.
Personally I agree with you two in Clannad and Kara no Kyōkai and I was confused on those two when I found a lot of lists contend both series. (And on that, I was confuse on why most would consider slap comedy like Azumanga to be in it) But the consensus from the places I've been and read seems to include both series into healing types. It would seems that, after watching both aeries, they are suppose to making you feel all warm and fussy inside and make you feel better about yourself after you watch it, and that seems to be the biggest criteria that trumps other criteria for these series and precisely why I said that HanaIro was the "traditional prototype" for these type of series, since this series pretty much fits all the criteria with little room for argument .


If you can see read Chinese or Japanese, look up the words 治療系(動漫) they even designate certain types of idols and celebrities as "healing types".


I'll also say that the more I did research on this genre thing, the broader the definition seems to become not unlike the slice of life we are talking about here. Similar to the categorization of Shonen/Shojo/Seinen comic to an extend, that at its core, it ends up depending on the pure fact from the native serialization magazine of the said series and not based on the content of the series itself. For example since its debut in US, for a long time Ah! My Goddess was often seen as Shojo or Shonen, but it is actually Seinen, and the series is rarely considered as harem comic in Japan or East Asia compare to west. And there are also many westerners who refuse to categorize Natsume Yūjinchō or Nodame as Shojo because they defined Shojo to be sappy romance while if was common knowledge over in the East.

Same thing as Eroge, A lot of westerners I've seen refuse to label series like Fate/Stay Night, Shuffle, Clannad as Eroge, and dead set on separating between Bishojo game and Eroge. But in Japan and East Asia, Eroge is simply a sub-genre of Bishojo games and they have no problem label aforementioned series as eroge since they contend explicit sex scenes and you can find relative walk-throughs, reviews, and save data on Eroge sites.


As for the Kaleido Star, I would agree that I won't use Slice-of-life on it even with its broadest definitiion, but that series had little doubt as "healing" types and was treated as such over in East. Again all I can say is cultural barrier...
__________________

Last edited by Undertaker; 2011-05-11 at 08:24.
Undertaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-05-11, 19:56   Link #1138
ahelo
Criminal Unrequitor
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Hanairo/Anohana Rivalry: A pitiful attempt to pit them against each other.
__________________
Traveler on Revenge / Ahelo Sigs / Saimoe Report! Signature by ganbaru
ahelo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-05-11, 20:38   Link #1139
Undertaker
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: U.S.
It's inevitable, it's not often you see two "Anime Original" shows air at same period that was written by the same person, Mari Okada.
__________________
Undertaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-05-11, 20:42   Link #1140
FatPianoBoy
Dansa med oss
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Near Cincinnati, OH, but actually in Kentucky
Age: 26
The best way to deal with poorly written blog entries trying to stir up pointless controversy is to link to them.
__________________
FatPianoBoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
comedy, coming of age, drama, pa works, romance, slice of life

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:04.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.