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Old 2011-05-11, 22:57   Link #22741
LyricalAura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
weren't the internet witch hunters the goats and Erika?
Erika is Bernkastel's piece, so under this theory she's basically the detective that the internet theorists added to their forgery. So she does represent the internet, but only indirectly through Bernkastel. The goats are just personifications of the countless theories that the Witch Hunters created.

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Originally Posted by erneize_hyde View Post
afaik, Bern and Lambda represents nothing but what their witch powers describe. btw I remembered it backwards, I thought Beatrice got her powers from Lambda and Bern?
Lambda said that she was Beato's master in EP3, but then later in EP5 someone (Virgilia?) said that Beato had invited the two voyagers onto the game board for some purpose, and they couldn't remain there without her consent.
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Old 2011-05-11, 23:16   Link #22742
AuraTwilight
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No Twilight, I was saying the fact that there are supernatural rules made to help pinpoint the culprit easier, that technically is a form of supernatural power helping the detective. If there is a house, that literally has 20 secret passages, and some ''absoloute'' power made only 1 count, that would be fiction and mystery regardless of how realistic the narrative and story is. I'm not saying Van dines and Knox's rules suck, I think they're very reasonable and make perfect sense, but in real life they just wouldn't work. Hence, they can technically be fantasy.
Uh, no shit?

It's not fantasy in that sense because there are rules. Fantasy doesn't adhere to any rules and makes no promises to be fictional. Fantasy and Fiction are not synonymous. Moreover, these rules do not count as supernatural because they do not help the detective in their deduction processes. The detective is not helped in any way nor is the world inside the narrative touched by any sort of miracle; it is the narrative being crafted in a way for the Reader. They're two entirely different things, and to argue otherwise is to admit that one does not understand what the rules of Knox and Vine are actually saying.

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Since servants can't be the culprit, due to the rules, that makes a supernatural force make it able to confirmed that, unless their job as a servant is questionable, they are not the culprit. My point is that these rules themselves make mystery unreal, no matter how justifiable they are, they are a supernatural set of rules made to prevent supernatural(or anti-climactic, stupid events) stuff from happening that can ruin the heart of the mystery.
The Detective does not know this, and a good mystery must still explain why it cannot be the detectives, instead of "I don't need to say." A good mystery is a puzzle where there is only one possible solution given the evidence. The rules are just crutches of reasoning that can be bent and broken if necessary; guidelines to keep the Reader from engaging in unnecessary insane logic.

Quote:
Erika is Bernkastel's piece, so under this theory she's basically the detective that the internet theorists added to their forgery. So she does represent the internet, but only indirectly through Bernkastel. The goats are just personifications of the countless theories that the Witch Hunters created.
OH FUCK BERN IS THE INTERNET?

No wonder she's so damn evil, this explains everything.
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Old 2011-05-11, 23:18   Link #22743
cronnoponno
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Lambda is merely Beatrice's guardian, however it is quite common for the enslaved to do things on their own against their masters whims.

Lambdadelta was more threatening Beatrice into keeping the game in check for Bernkastel so she could stay there for all eternity, not using her authority as ''master'' to make her do it. Rather, ''I gave you a million dollars, now play with my child or I will sue you for interest''. As witches, this is similar to EVA-brattrice(lol) fighting against the predecessor Beatrice.


Also, the cat box of Rokkenjima is Beatrice's territory as a witch, regardless of Lambdadelta, she need only give her consent for Beatrice being a witch, but she can be forced out of a territory that is not hers. Lambdadelta has no territory of her own(well she does, but she left it), so for her to arrogantly claim she can totally screw Beatrice over if she disobeys her must imply heavily on her power.

Not enough of the fantasy aspect is explained, but similar to how Ange could ''break the magical barrier on the chapel to reach the one truth inside''. Lambdadelta can probably ''Certainly cut through Beatrice's endless possibilities''. I'm just not too sure how her power works.


Well, that's what I got out of it any way. I was also confused about that as well.




And Aura, what about the rule saying ''Intuition that proves to be right cannot be a technique''? That impacts the detectives abilities, implying that they must have an impartial perspective.Some times, people ''get lucky'', yet it is forbidden for that to happen to the detective. Sometimes police, and other investigators get lucky in real life in their searches.

Any mystery that follows these commandments is a mystery with fictional elements playing at hand, regardless if the detective knows they are there or not. They are still helping the detective. Also, fantasy does follow rules somtimes, and not all mystery follows rules. If they do not follow these rules, then they are more realistic. There are plenty of times when Fantasy is explained to the core, such as the seven stakes of Purgatory, they clearly had limits and rules drawn to them, and even had origins of existence.

Regardless of if the detective knows it or not, following the rules make forces at work make it impossible for the Servant to be the culprit. Meaning if I was a rich person, and had a house full of servants, and one of them hated me, my mansion exploded and erased all evidence, and someone made a mystery out of it. It could be possible that that servant did kill me, but if they followed Van Dines or Knox's, they wouldn't be allowed to be selected, hence that mystery has some fiction in it(well, being that the clues would not all be presented it'd hardly be a mystery but you get my point right?).

Last edited by cronnoponno; 2011-05-11 at 23:36.
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Old 2011-05-12, 00:48   Link #22744
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Thinking about it, for me, Lambda would have to be the personification of the author's determination to continue the plot so that Beato's game would be 'understood'. Which is why she would sometimes help the Human side then helps the Witch side the next. She exists in Beato's game to keep the plot going or else there won't be any closure, just like what almost happened in EP4.

It's a bit flawed and messy but yeah...
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Old 2011-05-12, 03:34   Link #22745
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Quote:
And Aura, what about the rule saying ''Intuition that proves to be right cannot be a technique''? That impacts the detectives abilities, implying that they must have an impartial perspective.Some times, people ''get lucky'', yet it is forbidden for that to happen to the detective. Sometimes police, and other investigators get lucky in real life in their searches.
Because it's a convention of the gender. No one wants to hear the detective just strike lucky and guess the culprit anymore than we want to read the hero pull a new superpower out of his ass and beat the villain at the last minute.

Quote:
Any mystery that follows these commandments is a mystery with fictional elements playing at hand, regardless if the detective knows they are there or not. They are still helping the detective. Also, fantasy does follow rules somtimes, and not all mystery follows rules. If they do not follow these rules, then they are more realistic. There are plenty of times when Fantasy is explained to the core, such as the seven stakes of Purgatory, they clearly had limits and rules drawn to them, and even had origins of existence.
All fiction has fictional elements playing at hand. There is no such thing as a fiction that is entirely correlative to reality.

And you completely misunderstood what I meant by 'rules'. Fantasy has no 'rules' because the reader's ability to predict what is happening and understand the inner workings of a tale are not necessary, or even connected to, the quality of the work. The same could not be said of Mystery, where it is less so a narrative so much as a logic puzzle for the reader. Without some sort of guarantee of solvability (like the rules), then it's a failure as a mystery. You can't do whatever the hell you want with a mystery and expect it to be 'good' because a mystery demands certain criteria that fantasy does not.

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Regardless of if the detective knows it or not, following the rules make forces at work make it impossible for the Servant to be the culprit. Meaning if I was a rich person, and had a house full of servants, and one of them hated me, my mansion exploded and erased all evidence, and someone made a mystery out of it. It could be possible that that servant did kill me, but if they followed Van Dines or Knox's, they wouldn't be allowed to be selected, hence that mystery has some fiction in it(well, being that the clues would not all be presented it'd hardly be a mystery but you get my point right?).
You're misunderstanding what the rules mean. The rule isn't an absolute ban against servants being the culprit; it's like the Chinaman rule, the spirit of the rule being a ban against easily scapegoated characters just doing shit for no reason; the rule was made in response to novels just having the butler do it so none of the likable characters had to be guilty.

If Servants could never be culprits whatsoever ever, then the Dine Inquisitors would've never been able to prosecute the Maid in the EP7 prologue, and Will wouldn't of pussyfooted and spent 15 minutes going on about motive before he was forced to drop a Dine rule.

The rules are guidelines, not absolute, supernatural rules.
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Old 2011-05-12, 07:04   Link #22746
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
If Maria is able to kill people then George is lying, but that would make him a culprit. This isn't possible.

Maria can't kill anyone.
Aura I don't think you understand how Bern's game worked. There's nothing that outright prevents George from being a culprit, if there was, Erika's theory could be denied.

As for the purple text, it's not a red, so if George and Maria are culprits all their purple texts mean nothing.

The real problem with Kylon's theory is that it doesn't explain how the closed room were created, unless I missed something. So it doesn't really work unless he fixes that.
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Old 2011-05-12, 09:30   Link #22747
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
.
This doesn't seem to have disproved anything I said. All I'm reading is justification for the rules. I already said they're well justified, and brilliant rules. However, even reading your post I can easily reason out that they're not ''realistic''. What other setting would allow one to heartlessly pick fun at murders and guess the culprit and take it as a challenge? Fantasy, if the police went into some house, and started getting excited over a crime, trying to take it as a challenge to find the culprit, needless to say they wouldn't be very good police. Even if the story is written to ''mesh'' with the rules and hide them, it's still the same as covering up guts in the body of a beautiful corpse. To say this is to say something like God's divine plan is working at hand in real life, but events are happening to make it seem like nothing supernatural is happening, so we can dismiss it for being supernatural.(Lets not bring god into this I was only using an example).


Fantasy has unspoken rules to it to, it's just that they're easily changed to adapt to a setting. They don't have a widely accepted list like mystery though, because in the end no one really needs them.

Fantasy has wide expectations as well, that can almost be considered rules, one of them would pretty much be: Elves must be of a noble race, if an elf is to be ''evil'', they must be of a branching race, such as a ''dark elf''. Hating humans does not make an elf evil, it makes them neutral, humans are not the center of the world. But defeating that and making a unique and brilliant setting that changes that general pattern makes it funner.
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Old 2011-05-12, 10:44   Link #22748
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Bern's game took common sense and real life logic and tossed them out of the window, it also doesn't give a damn about knox and dine rules as well as any narrative consistency and suspension of disbelief.

It is better to consider it a puzzle game rather than a mystery.
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Old 2011-05-12, 10:53   Link #22749
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I see it as Bernkastel's quiz question.

To me the important part about all of this is that this is the result of a game without a reader.
Edit: To explain a bit, the story exists only to interest the reader, a reader "in mind" (target audience or specific person). What really matters to these arcs we've seen from the start is the riddles they ask you. Made (at least the first ones) to be enjoyed by a reader. This is why the story has to be realistic to some level (in other arcs' cases), because otherwise the "target audience/specific reader" wouldn't even be interested to begin with.
The true gameboard is not limited by any genre, the mystery is just how it was used in order to reach a specific target audience/specific reader.

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Old 2011-05-12, 11:05   Link #22750
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
I see it as Bernkastel's quiz question.

To me the important part about all of this is that this is the result of a game without a reader.
I think that even after the EP7 tea party, some people didn't realize the narrator could use "deceptive reading techniques" without actually lying about what people were doing or saying, so it was good to get that out in the open.
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Old 2011-05-12, 11:10   Link #22751
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Ah, well, there's that too, but wasn't that in a way thrown in our face since arc 2? I mean, red truth and the meta world, not fantasy scenes.
Guess it was never so clear as it is now tho.

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Old 2011-05-12, 12:42   Link #22752
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Aura I don't think you understand how Bern's game worked. There's nothing that outright prevents George from being a culprit, if there was, Erika's theory could be denied.

As for the purple text, it's not a red, so if George and Maria are culprits all their purple texts mean nothing.

The real problem with Kylon's theory is that it doesn't explain how the closed room were created, unless I missed something. So it doesn't really work unless he fixes that.
You...misunderstood the point I was making. George and Maria can't both be culprits because only one set of parents can be still alive; it's pretty much set up so that one branch family is guilty, and with Maria's we have the problem of an open space.

And, frankly, Erika's argument, while logically valid, goes against the spirit of Bern's game.

Quote:
This doesn't seem to have disproved anything I said. All I'm reading is justification for the rules. I already said they're well justified, and brilliant rules. However, even reading your post I can easily reason out that they're not ''realistic''. What other setting would allow one to heartlessly pick fun at murders and guess the culprit and take it as a challenge? Fantasy, if the police went into some house, and started getting excited over a crime, trying to take it as a challenge to find the culprit, needless to say they wouldn't be very good police. Even if the story is written to ''mesh'' with the rules and hide them, it's still the same as covering up guts in the body of a beautiful corpse. To say this is to say something like God's divine plan is working at hand in real life, but events are happening to make it seem like nothing supernatural is happening, so we can dismiss it for being supernatural.(Lets not bring god into this I was only using an example).
It's like you're not understanding a word I'm saying.

The author forging a story to go a certain way, even if it is not realistic, is not the same as using supernatural elements to solve a mystery. Even if an author is weaving a story a certain way, everything that happens in a Mystery story could happen in real life, no matter how improbable.

Quote:
Fantasy has unspoken rules to it to, it's just that they're easily changed to adapt to a setting. They don't have a widely accepted list like mystery though, because in the end no one really needs them.
You demonstrate that you still misunderstand what I mean by Fantasy not having 'rules'. You can do ANYTHING in a Fantasy, and there's no real rules you can breach that would make it a 'bad fantasy' (save for rules that would break any story, like 'no deus ex machinas').

Quote:
Fantasy has wide expectations as well, that can almost be considered rules, one of them would pretty much be: Elves must be of a noble race, if an elf is to be ''evil'', they must be of a branching race, such as a ''dark elf''. Hating humans does not make an elf evil, it makes them neutral, humans are not the center of the world. But defeating that and making a unique and brilliant setting that changes that general pattern makes it funner.
That matters nothing. There are many settings where elves are impish, asshole sprites much like fairies. There are many stories where humans ARE the center of the world. There are countless fantasies that simply don't have elves in them. What you listed aren't rules, it's just people being lazy and copying Tolkein or Dungeons and Dragons. The reader doesn't read about a good dark elf or an evil 'high elf', and go "This is bullshit, the whole Fantasy is ruined now" as they would a Mystery.
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Old 2011-05-12, 14:32   Link #22753
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
You...misunderstood the point I was making. George and Maria can't both be culprits because only one set of parents can be still alive; it's pretty much set up so that one branch family is guilty, and with Maria's we have the problem of an open space.
George is Maria's father!

Your move.
Quote:
And, frankly, Erika's argument, while logically valid, goes against the spirit of Bern's game.
While I don't disagree, the irony of that is pretty delightful.
Quote:
The author forging a story to go a certain way, even if it is not realistic, is not the same as using supernatural elements to solve a mystery. Even if an author is weaving a story a certain way, everything that happens in a Mystery story could happen in real life, no matter how improbable.
Isn't it as improbable that ESP (in the generic sense of "extraordinarily powerful senses allowing for possible but implausible observations," not necessarily psychic in nature) exists as an assassin having absolutely perfect aim and the ability to avoid shooting bullet holes through a target or providing evidence through powder stains where he or she stood to fire the shot?

One of these is not only perfectly acceptable in mysteries, but is indeed a staple of them. The other isn't okay, hmm?

I'd also disagree with both of you about fantasy, but I don't see how that line of discussion is especially relevant.
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Old 2011-05-12, 16:32   Link #22754
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Quote:
George is Maria's father!

Your move.
George is fat.

Your move.

Quote:
Isn't it as improbable that ESP (in the generic sense of "extraordinarily powerful senses allowing for possible but implausible observations," not necessarily psychic in nature) exists as an assassin having absolutely perfect aim and the ability to avoid shooting bullet holes through a target or providing evidence through powder stains where he or she stood to fire the shot?

One of these is not only perfectly acceptable in mysteries, but is indeed a staple of them. The other isn't okay, hmm?
Apparently. Hollywood Genius rule, I guess.
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Old 2011-05-12, 18:05   Link #22755
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Spoiler for Long text wall:


Maybe I'm confusing what you said here, the supernatural elements don't ''solve'' the mystery, but they are there and they certainly do affect it. Can you state where it was listed as a fact that Mystery does have rules? That the very definition of a mystery is that it follows these rules? Because my research is probably wrong, but Knox made his list in 1929, did Mysteries suddenly start there?
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Old 2011-05-12, 18:37   Link #22756
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Any stories follows litteracy rules.
Isn't that enough, doesn't matter that it's fantasy of mystery or whatever else, reality doesn't follow these rules.
There are no main characters, no introduction, no development, no plot twist, no antagonists, etc, in _real_ reality.

A story doesn't have to be a mystery either to be "mysterious" and for someone to figure out the truth to them/what's going to occur in the end of the story. It depends if the author is good or just cheaply reusing deus ex machinas over and over, but a normal story comes with enough forshadowing that a really avid reading can figure it out before the end, mystery, fantasy, romance, action, whatever else you want.

To add a bit more, you are _never_ privy of the inside thoughts of anyone in reality.

These rules doesn't exist in reality, and there are thousand mores, and they affect any given fiction, and in most cases even the "stories based on a true event".
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Old 2011-05-12, 20:22   Link #22757
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So basically all he's saying "Hey guys, fiction stories aren't real". So...um....thanks for telling us, I guess?
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Old 2011-05-12, 20:29   Link #22758
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
If Maria is able to kill people then George is lying, but that would make him a culprit. This isn't possible.

Maria can't kill anyone.
This is what I mean. Here's the original line from the Japanese. (I wrote this down thinking I would present it to a friend and then realized just how much work it would've been to try and translate everything for him...)

George: 「真里亞ちゃんが人なんか殺すもんか。真里亞ちゃんには誰も殺せないよ。

So if George and Maria were killers none of what they say can be used as the truth.


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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Aura I don't think you understand how Bern's game worked. There's nothing that outright prevents George from being a culprit, if there was, Erika's theory could be denied.

As for the purple text, it's not a red, so if George and Maria are culprits all their purple texts mean nothing.

The real problem with Kylon's theory is that it doesn't explain how the closed room were created, unless I missed something. So it doesn't really work unless he fixes that.
Oops... yah, so you guys noticed. When it finally got to the end there, I realized it was an either-or solution. George and Maria conspiring, vs. Battler conspiring, as the kids.

As for the closed room, specifically the parent's initial closed room of 6, I figured that the 6 were intending to fake as per usual, but I just thought that they weren't really dead until after the closed room was opened. And thus the need for the children to kill (some, but not all) of their own parents. Now, killing people with a surreptitious prick to the neck with a poisoned needle or something, that's kinda far fetched but... (see below0

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Bern's game took common sense and real life logic and tossed them out of the window, it also doesn't give a damn about knox and dine rules as well as any narrative consistency and suspension of disbelief.

It is better to consider it a puzzle game rather than a mystery.
This is how I approached the problem too. Because it's a puzzle, you don't need to talk about plausibility or try to explain how things work. You can just state it with rules. So it doesn't matter how they killed them, only that they did. And obviously George and Maria killing their own parents would be out of character, but if this is merely a puzzle and the matters of character don't enter into it then it doesn't really matter.

So for example, it's never explained how Kyrie and Rudolf killed the other parents. But by the process of elimination, they must have and so because this is a puzzle, you just need to know or figure out the final result.


Anyways, even if that one line about Maria not being a killer doesn't hold, I have a feeling I missed out on another rule somewhere, since it seems Ryukishi's/Bernkastel's intention was to have the Battler Gang be the culprits. I'll go through all the lines again and double check...


Edit!
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
You...misunderstood the point I was making. George and Maria can't both be culprits because only one set of parents can be still alive; it's pretty much set up so that one branch family is guilty, and with Maria's we have the problem of an open space.

And, frankly, Erika's argument, while logically valid, goes against the spirit of Bern's game.
That was my problem. I didn't see any rule about that. Say, Eva planning with Rosa, for example, to kill Hideyoshi and the rest to take off with the gold. That's actually not to unreasonable a solution for even the main story, back when everyone was theorizing that Eva was the killer. 8) Sure it's devious, but... that's the way I think, apparently.

If he added one more rule, that the children would never kill their parents, that would seal it into the one solution. In fact, when Erika showed up, I thought he was going to use this second solution! ... but then yah... she made this weird-ass excuse of a counter-argument... heh.

Last edited by Kylon99; 2011-05-12 at 20:40.
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Old 2011-05-12, 21:02   Link #22759
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Quote:
So if George and Maria were killers none of what they say can be used as the truth.
And as I already said, this doesn't seem to be possible.

Quote:
Oops... yah, so you guys noticed. When it finally got to the end there, I realized it was an either-or solution. George and Maria conspiring, vs. Battler conspiring, as the kids.

As for the closed room, specifically the parent's initial closed room of 6, I figured that the 6 were intending to fake as per usual, but I just thought that they weren't really dead until after the closed room was opened. And thus the need for the children to kill (some, but not all) of their own parents. Now, killing people with a surreptitious prick to the neck with a poisoned needle or something, that's kinda far fetched but... (see below0
Again, none of this matters; this is a straight murder story with no fluff of the occult, and the poison method was denied; the culprit has to kill face to face with blunt force, such as a gun or a knife, and it has to be instantaneous. This wipes out Maria through deductive reasoning on it's own.

Quote:
This is how I approached the problem too. Because it's a puzzle, you don't need to talk about plausibility or try to explain how things work. You can just state it with rules. So it doesn't matter how they killed them, only that they did. And obviously George and Maria killing their own parents would be out of character, but if this is merely a puzzle and the matters of character don't enter into it then it doesn't really matter.
Except George's involvement in killing Shannon or cooperating with her murderer is an instance of characterization being used for deductive reasoning, and Bern felt that the 'how' of killing the victims was important enough that she should clarify how it must be done in Red.

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That was my problem. I didn't see any rule about that. Say, Eva planning with Rosa, for example, to kill Hideyoshi and the rest to take off with the gold. That's actually not to unreasonable a solution for even the main story, back when everyone was theorizing that Eva was the killer. 8) Sure it's devious, but... that's the way I think, apparently.
Two of the parents were still alive; this was confirmed. There are three culprits in all. This is confirmed. Only culprits can lie. This is confirmed. The parents were all inspecting their parents, and none of them would mistake the living/dead status of their parents. This is confirmed. Even if we go with Eva/Rosa, for example, this means George and Maria both lied, meaning we have FOUR culprits. This is not possible.

You're looking at the rules, but you're not cross-referencing the rules with each other to see the unstated, emergent rules that arise from them.
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Old 2011-05-12, 21:02   Link #22760
rogerpepitone
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The intended means to rule out George was supposed to be:
1) In order to carry out the second twilight, one of the first twilight "victims" had to be sealed inside.
2) Another first twilight "victim" must have survived to carry out the fifth and sixth twilight.
3) With two survivors, in order to get six victims in the first two twilights, the culprit of the first twilight must have killed all victims so far. In order for the culprit sealed in Natsuhi's room to carry out any murders, said culprit must have carried out all murders in the first two twilights.
4) George did not kill Shannon by Jessica's purple text.
5) ** It's not specifically covered anywhere, but Kanon's death doesn't count towards a culprit. **
6) George did not kill Gohda, Kumasawa, Nanjo, or Jessica. (alibid)
7) ** Killing Battler or Maria after the narrative ends doesn't count either **
8) George could not kill any victim, therefore he isn't a culprit.
(Asterisked areas are weak spots. Erika could have attacked on point 7 rather than where she did.)

A "children never kill their parents" rule wouldn't help; one of the false victims of the first twilight must have carried out all the real murders in that twilight.
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