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Old 2011-05-12, 21:25   Link #22761
Jan-Poo
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I don't get it Aura, if I say that Battler, George, Maria, Kyrie, Rudolf, Rosa, Eva and Hideyoshi are all culprits using Erika's loophole, which rule exactly can you use to counter it?

I don't think there's anything that definitely says that the culprits must be three and no more than three.
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Old 2011-05-12, 23:08   Link #22762
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Small comment on something I saw on the last page, in regards to someone asking what Lambda represented on the top level. Mind, I haven't read EP8 yet (it's finals time at my school...), but I'm aware of it's events. To grossly overgeneralize, I've been assuming since EP6 that the characters represent :

Beatrice : The Author
Battler : Intended Audience
Bernkastel : THE INTERNET (well, other readers)
Lambda : Editor
Goats : Either individual popular theories, or more "other readers" than Bern, I guess
Erika : The pressure the reading audience exerts on the Author

So, you have Beatrice writing for her audience, Battler. Bern (other people) take an interest in a tale that amuses them. Lambda, the editor, guarantees that the story will be published, offers writing advice and edits things, and is familiar with the audience they'll be selling too (familiarity with Bernkastel). Eventually, people on the internet become extremely critical of Piece-Battler's jam-packed-with-fail detective work, and insist that a REAL detective would do this or that, and that the story is no good if the author can't provide a thusly qualified detective. Enter Erika, who represents the cruel logic of an audience only concerned with winning the logic game, and dislike things like "Battler sat tight and didn't leave the guesthouse until the 9th Twilight".

When I think of Lambda's role in that way, it explains most of her actions pretty well in my opinion, from threatening Beatrice to maintain the game, to her role as the objective judge as to whether Battler's logic error had been resolved, to her desire for a happy ending (if I recall correctly?) towards the end.
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Old 2011-05-12, 23:36   Link #22763
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
I don't get it Aura, if I say that Battler, George, Maria, Kyrie, Rudolf, Rosa, Eva and Hideyoshi are all culprits using Erika's loophole, which rule exactly can you use to counter it?

I don't think there's anything that definitely says that the culprits must be three and no more than three.
Well, for starters, not only is it a bullshit loophole that makes like half the characters culprits and violates Bern's intent of creating a simple game, but also pay attention to the hints. I'm not going to elaborate because the computer with my copy of the game is in need of a new battery right now. I'm kind of forced to go from memory.
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Old 2011-05-12, 23:50   Link #22764
cronnoponno
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Well, for starters, not only is it a bullshit loophole that makes like half the characters culprits and violates Bern's intent of creating a simple game, but also pay attention to the hints. I'm not going to elaborate because the computer with my copy of the game is in need of a new battery right now. I'm kind of forced to go from memory.
I've just now reread the hints, and Erika's theory about George is still legit.

Bern might not have intended this, but it's clear that Ryu did, seeing as he wrote the story and made Erika actually point this out.

Of course, if someone would like to reread the hints and double check for anything i might have missed that's fine.
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Old 2011-05-12, 23:50   Link #22765
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
And as I already said, this doesn't seem to be possible.

Again, none of this matters; this is a straight murder story with no fluff of the occult, and the poison method was denied; the culprit has to kill face to face with blunt force, such as a gun or a knife, and it has to be instantaneous. This wipes out Maria through deductive reasoning on it's own.
Like I said, I approached this as a pure puzzle, sorta like Ange's puzzles earlier in the game. When they say, "Shion was 153cm tall" (I forgot what the actual puzzle was) I don't say, "No wait, Shion was a tall girl," I just take the puzzle facts for what they are. Similarily if they leave something out, I take it that there's an omission on purpose, assuming the puzzle was done correctly.

So things about whether it was not possible or rather not probable... yah, I agree with you, but from the pure puzzle approach things that are probable or improbable don't matter.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Except George's involvement in killing Shannon or cooperating with her murderer is an instance of characterization being used for deductive reasoning, and Bern felt that the 'how' of killing the victims was important enough that she should clarify how it must be done in Red.
Well, like I said, I threw out characterization with Bern's puzzle. If I had to take into account characterization, I could say that George was duped until the end and then had to keep his mouth shout. 8) The real George might have just gone nuts and killed everyone though.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Two of the parents were still alive; this was confirmed. There are three culprits in all. This is confirmed. Only culprits can lie. This is confirmed. The parents were all inspecting their parents, and none of them would mistake the living/dead status of their parents. This is confirmed. Even if we go with Eva/Rosa, for example, this means George and Maria both lied, meaning we have FOUR culprits. This is not possible.
Actually, there are 2 parents, but there can be one or two children. This is based on Battler's deduction when he went through the count. We can have a maximum of 4 culprits, two of them being children. (You can't have 3 children culprits though.)

Also, the children would not have mistaken their life/death status if they acknowledged they were alive, and then killed them. But was there any contention about this part?

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
You're looking at the rules, but you're not cross-referencing the rules with each other to see the unstated, emergent rules that arise from them.
Well, I cross-referrenced them only to the point of seeing which purples were truths and which ones were lies. But yah, if I view this as a puzzle then I refuse things that could 'possibly' be, which includes emergent ... 'ideas.' Not really rules...


Edit:
I thought it was going to be a pain to go back through all the rules until I realized there's an English translation now. 8)

Double Edit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Well, for starters, not only is it a bullshit loophole that makes like half the characters culprits and violates Bern's intent of creating a simple game, but also pay attention to the hints. I'm not going to elaborate because the computer with my copy of the game is in need of a new battery right now. I'm kind of forced to go from memory.
Oh yah, Erika's reasoning basically invents more scenario outside the boundaries of the puzzle. It would be like tacking on a chapter of your own at the end of a novel. "And... then, Tooya and Ange realized everything they've been through was an illusion and that really were both sex slaves to Ikuko..." :3
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Old 2011-05-12, 23:56   Link #22766
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Quote:
I've just now reread the hints, and Erika's theory about George is still legit.
That's not at all what I was saying. So....thanks, I guess.

Quote:
Well, I cross-referrenced them only to the point of seeing which purples were truths and which ones were lies. But yah, if I view this as a puzzle then I refuse things that could 'possibly' be, which includes emergent ... 'ideas.' Not really rules...
*facepalm* An emergent rule is an unstated but still valid rule created by examining the text. If, for example, Bern said "A culprit must kill" and "There can only be one culprit", we get the emergent rule, "Only one person has the ability to kill."
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Old 2011-05-13, 00:41   Link #22767
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
*facepalm* An emergent rule is an unstated but still valid rule created by examining the text. If, for example, Bern said "A culprit must kill" and "There can only be one culprit", we get the emergent rule, "Only one person has the ability to kill."
Ah, ok. No, I should have accounted for those as well. I thought you meant something like how you figured that only one family can be the set of culprits. I didn't see that rule but I figured you must have made the assumption from the ruleset somehow.
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Old 2011-05-13, 02:53   Link #22768
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Originally Posted by cronnoponno View Post
Bern might not have intended this, but it's clear that Ryu did, seeing as he wrote the story and made Erika actually point this out
You don't think the whole thing was a setup by Bern to make Ange think of her and Erika as allies?
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Old 2011-05-13, 06:56   Link #22769
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Well, for starters, not only is it a bullshit loophole that makes like half the characters culprits and violates Bern's intent of creating a simple game, but also pay attention to the hints. I'm not going to elaborate because the computer with my copy of the game is in need of a new battery right now. I'm kind of forced to go from memory.
Yeah it's a bullshit loophole, but as cronnoponno said it is something that ryuukishi himself brought up and he let it go uncountered, so complain to him not me.

At any rate what I asked if there was a rule that you could use to counter the theory and this is not, since you claimed that it's impossible that there are more than three culprits. As far as I can tell there's nothing that makes it impossible.

Quote:
You don't think the whole thing was a setup by Bern to make Ange think of her and Erika as allies?
Yeah... but that doesn't mean that Erika's theory is invalid, maybe Bern consciously left that hole open so Erika could use it later.


BTW I just realized... Since obviously Bern's game doesn't necessarily follows Knox rules and Dine rules and no confirmation was given about those either, what could prevent me from using "secret passages" as a way to explain the closed rooms?
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Old 2011-05-13, 12:37   Link #22770
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Most puzzles can be solved by a bullshit loophole, for the simple reason that the author doesn't want to write an entire paragraph of additional clarifications for annoying pedants who just want to make themselves look clever (see: Erika). They generally contain some implicit assumptions (which I think is partly what Ryukishi was getting at with the whole red text thing early on).
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Old 2011-05-13, 13:13   Link #22771
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I'm randomly reminded by these messages of Ryuukishi saying something like that the one true fantasy element in Umineko is that it's raining outside yet none has wet footprints.
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Old 2011-05-13, 13:48   Link #22772
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I'm randomly reminded by these messages of Ryuukishi saying something like that the one true fantasy element in Umineko is that it's raining outside yet none has wet footprints.
And that people only brought one set of clothing on an overnight trip.

At least that's not a problem for the servants.
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Old 2011-05-13, 13:51   Link #22773
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Old 2011-05-13, 17:30   Link #22774
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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
Most puzzles can be solved by a bullshit loophole, for the simple reason that the author doesn't want to write an entire paragraph of additional clarifications for annoying pedants who just want to make themselves look clever (see: Erika). They generally contain some implicit assumptions (which I think is partly what Ryukishi was getting at with the whole red text thing early on).
Isn't that a bit unfair? Sometimes riddles and puzzles do this on purpose, and throw in loopholes that you're SUPPOSED to find.

I mean, what if I said an emergent rule was being implied that ''Loopholes are valid'' since Ryu didn't let Erika go uncountered?

Besides I kind of liked how the whole ''3 paragraph rule'' thing was going in Umineko.

While Bernkastel wanted simplicity, as I was going through the evidence, I wasn't sure if it was tricking me into thinking Battlers family was the culprit, and I was really starting to suspect George. So it became a 50/50 chance of luck between the two. I just guessed Battler first, and ended up being right.

Another loophole I found was with Kanon. Kanon is now treated as being killed, and his master key has been treated as being destroyed.. Is this a trick to confuse the body count? If Kanon can be ''killed'', then he can be murdered, and as such would have to count for the ''6 people'', but a culprit has to kill one directly with their own hands, so if the culprit of the first twilight killed Shannon, and Kanon died as a chain(as they're both the same people), does that mean that counts towards the 6 people?I figured that Bern didn't give a fuck and just wanted simplicity, but at the same time I was wondering if I was being tricked into missing that.


Although I can understand what you're saying, the problem is whether or not to be sure if they made those loopholes for a reason. I thought that the loopholes were meaningless once Battler's family was right, but then Erika came...
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Old 2011-05-13, 18:22   Link #22775
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Hey you guys, I think I found one rule which violates the George/Maria solution:

Shannon: お子様方はそれぞれ、自分の親が間違いなく死んでいることを確認なさいました…。

I haven't seen the English version of this, but if it's as Aura states... something like, "They ascertained their life or death status" then that is a mistranslation. The Japanese from the game states that the children certified each of their parents' deaths, rather than whether they were living or not, as spoken by Shannon. Therefore they couldn't have been murdered after the fact.

So then the Battler/Kyrie/Rudolf solution is the only solution left.

EDIT: (Because it's impossible for both George and Maria to have completed a murder each due to lack of available victims, and that they both guarantee each other's innocence. If only one completed a murder, there's some kind of paradox there, I think. It must be both or none for those two.)
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Old 2011-05-13, 18:25   Link #22776
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Another loophole I found was with Kanon. Kanon is now treated as being killed, and his master key has been treated as being destroyed.. Is this a trick to confuse the body count? If Kanon can be ''killed'', then he can be murdered, and as such would have to count for the ''6 people'', but a culprit has to kill one directly with their own hands, so if the culprit of the first twilight killed Shannon, and Kanon died as a chain(as they're both the same people), does that mean that counts towards the 6 people?I figured that Bern didn't give a fuck and just wanted simplicity, but at the same time I was wondering if I was being tricked into missing that.
"Being treated as being killed" is not the same as "this person was murdered and bumps up the body count." Besides, Shkanon.
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Old 2011-05-13, 18:38   Link #22777
cronnoponno
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The culprit of the first twilight really did killsix people.

It was never stated that Kanon was murdered, but Bernkastels red truth said ''killed 6 people''. If one of the adults murdered Shannon, and Kanon was hence ''killed'' indirectly, they can still be the culprit and have Kanon count towards the 6 people.
Now, if it said, ''The culprit killed 6 people, this also refers to the number of corpses, Kanon's is merely missing'', it'd make more sense. This was a problem in the 6th game where Erika made Beatrice repeat that ''People going in our out means number of bodies'', which is why it made me think something was wierd.
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Old 2011-05-13, 19:39   Link #22778
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Kanon and Shannon are one person.
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Old 2011-05-13, 20:14   Link #22779
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Isn't that a bit unfair? Sometimes riddles and puzzles do this on purpose, and throw in loopholes that you're SUPPOSED to find.
But clearly not this one, since there's a solution you can systematically and logically arrive at without using the "Virtually any answer at all could be correct" bullshit loophole.

Heck, all the non confirmed by Jessica and Nanjo people could be culprits under this loophole (except Kanon, I guess). Generally, if using a loophole gives you many solutions to a problem which is meant to have one unique solution, you aren't meant to use it.

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Another loophole I found was with Kanon. Kanon is now treated as being killed, and his master key has been treated as being destroyed.. Is this a trick to confuse the body count? If Kanon can be ''killed'', then he can be murdered, and as such would have to count for the ''6 people'', but a culprit has to kill one directly with their own hands, so if the culprit of the first twilight killed Shannon, and Kanon died as a chain(as they're both the same people), does that mean that counts towards the 6 people?I figured that Bern didn't give a fuck and just wanted simplicity, but at the same time I was wondering if I was being tricked into missing that.
I guess it wasn't specified since it didn't matter at all in the actual solution - first twilight killer gets 6 kills in the first and second twilights.

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Although I can understand what you're saying, the problem is whether or not to be sure if they made those loopholes for a reason. I thought that the loopholes were meaningless once Battler's family was right, but then Erika came...
They're not exactly "meaningless" in story terms - Ryukishi needed to leave something open for Erika to attack. But that doesn't mean that they're actually valid solutions to it as a puzzle.
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Old 2011-05-13, 20:55   Link #22780
LyricalAura
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It was never stated that Kanon was murdered, but Bernkastels red truth said ''killed 6 people''. If one of the adults murdered Shannon, and Kanon was hence ''killed'' indirectly, they can still be the culprit and have Kanon count towards the 6 people.
It's irrelevant to the "6 people" red either way. The red was given immediately after the second twilight, when Shannon and Kanon were still alive.
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