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Old 2011-05-06, 04:21   Link #2041
Arkeus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiresias View Post
But not with the same level of detail and consistency.
actually, yes. It's just that it's mainly the main governement *wants to promote magic*, while the governement in ZKC wants to control ESP.

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And like I said before, ZKC had anti-ESP from the very beginning, while Nanoha only had them circa StrikerS.
I am unsure ZKC actually had it from the very beginning, but it doesn't mantter anyway- the first two seasons were pure mage duels in a nonmagic world. It makes no sense for it to come there. [/QUOTE]


Quote:
For Tsuzuki, anti-magic was an afterthought.
unprovable.

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And I never recall AMF generators being deployed by the TSAB on vital areas to protect them from sudden mage rampages (there's been many jokes about Nanoha demolishing city blocks after being emo or drunk, but will it really be funny if it actually happen? all the collateral damage, all the casualties?) - the TSAB only leashes their mages - nor any statement of AMF's being used by TSAB warships or military bases.
Because they use forcefield for them (like the ones on the ground base) They want to promote magic, and most of their tech is powered by magic, hence using AMF would in fact cut their communications and so on.

When it comes to prisons, it's likely they use AMF though (or high grade limiters).

Quote:
Besides, at least ZKC espers has the decency to counter ECMs by figuring out new tricks for their powers instead of going "shit our ESP's no good, let's just use guns instead".
No, the 5 most powerful Espers in the world find ways to Counter ECMs. TSAB tries to teach Anti-AMF abilties to everyone (that was one of the big plot points of StrikerS).

it's the opposite
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Old 2011-05-06, 05:37   Link #2042
Tiresias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkeus View Post
Because they use forcefield for them (like the ones on the ground base) They want to promote magic, and most of their tech is powered by magic, hence using AMF would in fact cut their communications and so on.
Redundant defense systems are actually common. Warships has defensive weapons that can launch anti-air missiles and fire their Gatling guns. Tanks have ceramic armor but are also protected by active defense systems. Fighter planes uses chaffs, flares, ECMs. Just because their base have forcefields doesn't mean it shoud be their only protection.

Also, I don't remember the exact thread, but it has been discussed here that Gadget Drones are powered by magic, yet they can generate AMFs, fire their weapons and be empowered by Lutecia's magic. And wanting to promote magic doesn't mean you must ignore the AMFs. Modern armies use electronics, but that doesn't stop them from R&D-ing EMP technology. Why? Because everybody use magic/electronics, including your enemy. A sensible army must think of every possibilities.

And don't forget terrorist, who won't give a damn over the law regarding AMFs of such(or any other laws, really).

And there's one thing from ZKC I wished was also present on Force: anti-magic with IFFs, which can be set to not affect friendlies.

Quote:
When it comes to prisons, it's likely they use AMF though.
Unprovable.

Yes, prisons in fanfics usually make heavy use of them, but no signs in canon.

And how about civilians? Limiters only restraints specific individuals, those who had agreed to be collared with one. What if a powerful unregistered mage suddenly decide to go emo and say, vaporize an entire amusement park just because their crush dumps them?

Quote:
No, the 5 most powerful Espers in the world find ways to Counter ECMs. TSAB tries to teach Anti-AMF abilties to everyone (that was one of the big plot points of StrikerS).
Aaand yet they made no such attempt on Force, instead opting to make guns that can be used for all TSAB perso- oh wait, those are actually for the androids (still not convinced to look for better job, reshirts?). Why can't they just let the Numbers (aka those who actually had experience in handling mass-based weapons) test the weapons while the primadona squad improve their magic again?

PS: Sometimes I wonder if Force was actually supposed to be an anime, and there was going to be supplementary mangas to cover the necessary details not highlighted on the main series. Force NEXT doesn't seem sufficient, since they usually focus on one character and their abilities, with little to no descriptions on things like "how Eclipse works in general" or "The abilities and limits of Eclipse" (since I can't fathom how it doesn't affect flight)
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Old 2011-05-06, 06:39   Link #2043
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Onii-san told me about how the Raptors will change how Nanoha will be like from now on. I can only appreciate how silly the franchise will become. I quote: "How will they screw this up?" That NEXT article does not help. Instead of the NUMBER-type gynoids, I found myself reminded of the mono-eyed monstrosities that populate Onii-san's shelf. Talk about being terribly disappointed.

So, Force NEXT? Excuse me while I go drink some Pepsi NEXT. ^_^
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Old 2011-05-06, 07:28   Link #2044
Arkeus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiresias View Post
Redundant defense systems are actually common. Warships has defensive weapons that can launch anti-air missiles and fire their Gatling guns. Tanks have ceramic armor but are also protected by active defense systems. Fighter planes uses chaffs, flares, ECMs. Just because their base have forcefields doesn't mean it shoud be their only protection.
Obviously. But, here is the thing: TSAB *wants* magic to work. It needs to.

We saw what AMF did to their base, amongst other things, but it's not even the point. The point is they *don't want* to use AMF as a philosophical standpoint, especially in neutral environment.

Quote:
Also, I don't remember the exact thread, but it has been discussed here that Gadget Drones are powered by magic, yet they can generate AMFs, fire their weapons and be empowered by Lutecia's magic. And wanting to promote magic doesn't mean you must ignore the AMFs. Modern armies use electronics, but that doesn't stop them from R&D-ing EMP technology. Why? Because everybody use magic/electronics, including your enemy. A sensible army must think of every possibilities.
First, Gadget drones are *not* powered by magic, we know that as fact.

Second, do i need to repeat myself about TSAB having no rival governement? they don't want AMF to be widespread, and it's in fact a rather new development for machines to use it so widespread. Since then, they have been training people to resist it.
Quote:
And don't forget terrorist, who won't give a damn over the law regarding AMFs of such(or any other laws, really).
hence why people are trained against it now, and why it's better not to look into it too much- terrorist won't be able to get new type of AMF without funding (thanks brains and regius :-( ).

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And there's one thing from ZKC I wished was also present on Force: anti-magic with IFFs, which can be set to not affect friendlies.
that's really stupid when it comes about a technomagic society. It WILL be hacked.


Quote:
Unprovable.

Yes, prisons in fanfics usually make heavy use of them, but no signs in canon.
because we haven't seen prisons in canon- we have seen, however, that criminals are put under sever limiters.

Quote:
And how about civilians? Limiters only restraints specific individuals, those who had agreed to be collared with one. What if a powerful unregistered mage suddenly decide to go emo and say, vaporize an entire amusement park just because their crush dumps them?
the same could happen in ZKC, and even more with guns and so on.


Quote:
Aaand yet they made no such attempt on Force, instead opting to make guns that can be used for all TSAB perso- oh wait, those are actually for the androids (still not convinced to look for better job, reshirts?). Why can't they just let the Numbers (aka those who actually had experience in handling mass-based weapons) test the weapons while the primadona squad improve their magic again?
because they need the weapons to be powered by magic and test them that way. Numbers have a different power source than magic too, and their own magical ability are usually inefficient to use the current prototypes they really need to test (strike cannons).

Oh, and BTW SUYCH ATTEMPT ARE MADE IN FORCE.

Why do you think every force Next talks about how Nanoha's and Vita's weapon are to be refined until mass production can begin?
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Old 2011-05-06, 07:33   Link #2045
MeisterBabylon
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Until they're introduced as characters and take of those UFO helmets, there's little to get emotionally attached to.
Master Chief proves that the latter is optional.

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Originally Posted by Heineko View Post
Onii-san told me about how the Raptors will change how Nanoha will be like from now on. I can only appreciate how silly the franchise will become. I quote: "How will they screw this up?" That NEXT article does not help. Instead of the NUMBER-type gynoids, I found myself reminded of the mono-eyed monstrosities that populate Onii-san's shelf. Talk about being terribly disappointed.

So, Force NEXT? Excuse me while I go drink some Pepsi NEXT. ^_^
Stop calling me strange things. And you talking like you’ve got a monocle on is over the top, rp noob. Those are Zaku for you, heretic!!

I'll reserve further commenting on these mages until I actually haul ass to read FORCE again.



Btw, idea! If the Raptors are Cywarriors, then their armor are CYBODIES.

*shot*
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Old 2011-05-06, 09:11   Link #2046
Tiresias
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Originally Posted by Arkeus View Post
Obviously. But, here is the thing: TSAB *wants* magic to work. It needs to.

We saw what AMF did to their base, amongst other things, but it's not even the point. The point is they *don't want* to use AMF as a philosophical standpoint, especially in neutral environment.
It's a bit funny to keep highlighting how the TSAB zealously stand their ground regarding AMFs even though right now, in Force, they start using and making mass-based weapons and genetically engineered soldiers bred specifically for battle, two things that they were also against.

Flexible idealism, much? (Then again this is the same organization who legalize child soldiers)

Quote:
First, Gadget drones are *not* powered by magic, we know that as fact.
They can still be "empowered" by Lutecia (I don't remember what exactly happened, but for the curious, it was during the attack on...err, whatever event it was where Tea almost shot subaru)

Quote:
Second, do i need to repeat myself about TSAB having no rival governement?
So? Most criminals are mages too, right? Remember Precia Testarossa, she whose bombardment spell can cross dimensions?

When criminals start using guns, did cops think it's enough that they also have guns? No, they start wearing body armor. And before someone points to me how they already have protection spells, remember what I said earlier about redundant defenses.

And lets not forget that TSAB also deals with Lost Logia's some of which has the magical capability to annihilate continents. The Huckebein anti-magic can dispel Arc-en-Ciel. Even if the TSAB can't make it that powerful the strategic value still mustn't be dismissed.

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because we haven't seen prisons in canon- we have seen, however, that criminals are put under sever limiters.
Which doesn't make it provable.

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the same could happen in ZKC, and even more with guns and so on.
But the ECM spamming on densely populated areas reduced the chances for such incidents.

And if in real life there's a tool that can disable nearby guns, it will definitely be used. But there isn't, which is why RL security measures were limited to gun controls and scannings on vital areas (airports, hotels, etc).

But here, they have the technology.

Quote:
because they need the weapons to be powered by magic and test them that way. Numbers have a different power source than magic too, and their own magical ability are usually inefficient to use the current prototypes they really need to test (strike cannons).
So? The new guns aren't for mages, they're for the "Humanoid Terminal Units" artificially created using "living material" for their bodies(which bring some troubles with TSAB's regulations at the beginning), similar to combat cyborgs

Quote:
Why do you think every force Next talks about how Nanoha's and Vita's weapon are to be refined until mass production can begin?
Weapons. Not spells. Not tactics. Weapons. Hence "Our magic and combat style doesn't work, let's use guns."
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Old 2011-05-06, 18:19   Link #2047
Akiyoshi
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Originally Posted by Tiresias View Post
They can still be "empowered" by Lutecia (I don't remember what exactly happened, but for the curious, it was during the attack on...err, whatever event it was where Tea almost shot subaru)
That was the battle in "Hotel Augusta", and Lutecia asset remote control over the Gadget Drones with her bugs in order to improve their moves and strategy capability. So yeah, the drones are somewhat able to certain magiccal manipulation.

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Originally Posted by Tiresias View Post
Weapons. Not spells. Not tactics. Weapons. Hence "Our magic and combat style doesn't work, let's use guns."
Which raises the question about why Section Six was assigned to test this equipement in first place. They run into an enemy they can't handle in a rather foolish display of blind bravery(with Signum and Hayate as the worst offenders, followed closely by Nanoha herself). There's still my theory of Caledfwich Techniques settling things to ridiculize the Primadona squad in order to appear with their Raptors as the saviors of the TSAB.

While the raptors are similar to combat cyborgs i guess they have some differences that make those able to use the AEC-Equips, like a mana generator or something, also this "living material" still bugs me(Nanoha Clone Wars is coming).

Spoiler for comeback:
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Old 2011-05-07, 23:22   Link #2048
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We are probably going to have a something like the sister arc in Index where the protagonist tries to convince one of the raptors that they are more than a tool and should value their humanity
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Old 2011-05-08, 05:48   Link #2049
Arkeus
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Originally Posted by Tiresias View Post
It's a bit funny to keep highlighting how the TSAB zealously stand their ground regarding AMFs even though right now, in Force, they start using and making mass-based weapons and genetically engineered soldiers bred specifically for battle, two things that they were also against.
Except the 'mass based weapons' are magically powered, and we still have no clue what's happening with the engineered soldiers.

Quote:
They can still be "empowered" by Lutecia (I don't remember what exactly happened, but for the curious, it was during the attack on...err, whatever event it was where Tea almost shot subaru)
Lutecia uses a physical medium in order to empower them, physical medium that is inserted within the drones.



Quote:
So? Most criminals are mages too, right? Remember Precia Testarossa, she whose bombardment spell can cross dimensions?

When criminals start using guns, did cops think it's enough that they also have guns? No, they start wearing body armor. And before someone points to me how they already have protection spells, remember what I said earlier about redundant defenses.

And lets not forget that TSAB also deals with Lost Logia's some of which has the magical capability to annihilate continents. The Huckebein anti-magic can dispel Arc-en-Ciel. Even if the TSAB can't make it that powerful the strategic value still mustn't be dismissed.
Actually, that's pretty much why it should be dismissed.

the TSAB's response against anti-magic has been to make Anti-magic not a viable option. If they use anti-magic against anti-magic, it will quickly escalate where everyone needs to use anti-magic and magic for civilian use gets more and more difficult.

the TSAB' stance in this makes perfect stance- this is not ZKC where Espers are the freaks you must control, this is a world that want and thrive on magic.

In that case, their solutions, which is to make all their armed force resistant to Anti-magic in order to make Anti-magic utterly useless, is the right one.

After all, if anti-magic becoems useless (not dangerous for the user, but useless) it will just be abandoned by most.

Quote:
But the ECM spamming on densely populated areas reduced the chances for such incidents.
Since when?
Quote:
And if in real life there's a tool that can disable nearby guns, it will definitely be used. But there isn't, which is why RL security measures were limited to gun controls and scannings on vital areas (airports, hotels, etc).

But here, they have the technology.
Your comparison fall flat when it comes to the simple fact that magic isn't just for fighting in the TSAB, but for most tech and normal use.

They want Magic to work and be considered normal. It's a different standpoint from ZKC, that's all.


Quote:
So? The new guns aren't for mages, they're for the "Humanoid Terminal Units" artificially created using "living material" for their bodies(which bring some troubles with TSAB's regulations at the beginning), similar to combat cyborgs



Weapons. Not spells. Not tactics. Weapons. Hence "Our magic and combat style doesn't work, let's use guns."
Actually, they are for mages. We still have no clue what's the deal for those biorobots, but it has been pretty clear the prototype are going to be streamlined.

That they are also doing something about biorobot means nothing so far.
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Old 2011-05-13, 10:25   Link #2050
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If Force were translated into the anime series format, how many episodes would it have thus far?
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Old 2011-05-13, 10:47   Link #2051
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If Force were translated into the anime series format, how many episodes would it have thus far?
26 would be a good estimation. Just let's hope they don't introduce characters and relies on the assumption that viewers have read the manga to know them. This means meaningful flashbacks, backstories; and zero training episodes or teeheheheeh onsen/shopping/fluff or shiptease scenes.
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Old 2011-05-13, 12:19   Link #2052
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26 would be a good estimation. Just let's hope they don't introduce characters and relies on the assumption that viewers have read the manga to know them. This means meaningful flashbacks, backstories; and zero training episodes or teeheheheeh onsen/shopping/fluff or shiptease scenes.
No, I mean, if the 15 manga chapters published thus far were converted into an anime, how many episodes would be required to retell the story until now? Two major fights is hardly a full-season material IMO. ^^;
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Old 2011-05-13, 14:48   Link #2053
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Like, five or six. And they'd need filler.
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Old 2011-05-13, 14:57   Link #2054
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No, I mean, if the 15 manga chapters published thus far were converted into an anime, how many episodes would be required to retell the story until now?
5 to 8. Based on Fairy Tale, which has a similar or greater action density and ranges from 2 to 3 twenty page chapters per episode.
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Old 2011-05-13, 17:59   Link #2055
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Considering the insane amount of pages FORCE take to depict motion in detail for every Tohma scene i'd say it will be between 4 to 6 chapters. If we cut the fifght to their basic moments Ch. 9 to 15 can be resumed into two episodes easily.
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Old 2011-05-13, 21:18   Link #2056
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Considering the insane amount of pages FORCE take to depict motion in detail
You keep saying that, but it's just not true.
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Old 2011-05-13, 21:28   Link #2057
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I'd say that is flanderized a bit, but if they wanted to animate some of these fights so far they'd definitely have to add more meat to them. If you wanted to make Signum VS Cypha a full episode, for example, they'd have to expand the fight a little bit.
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Old 2011-05-14, 00:22   Link #2058
Akiyoshi
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It probably just endure for half an episode with chit-chat from S6 or Tohma's flashbacks as filler xDU

Someone already says this but i wonder if this will be the time for another epic shout-out to GaoGaiGar with Subaru's own version of "Hell & Heaven" now that she now posses a very effective left-arm defensive equip(Seriously the Sword Breaker is the only thing preventing me from completely dismiss the AEC-Equips as a bunch of faulty prototypes). It will be awesome to see her obliterating Cypha with it xD.
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Old 2011-05-14, 03:28   Link #2059
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Well, an episode generally needs a good start-middle-finish ground to work as an episode. Even cliffhangers need to be thought about, as you can't just throw them down wherever you want.

As such, here's what I think would make of a Force anime so far:

Episode 1: Chapter 1 serves as a good first episode. There are plenty of things happening that can be stretched to fit a 20 minute episode without feeling bloated, and it's an ideal introduction of Thoma and Lily.

Episode 2: Chapter two is an exposition chapter, so that serves as a good counterbalance for the action-packed ending of the first episode. I would add the first 3 pages of chapter 3 to give the episode a more tense ending that leaves the viewer wanting to see more.

Episode 3: After the exposition episode we need some action in this one, so episode 3 should try to combine chapter 3 with page 1-12 of chapter 4. Combining exposition with action was a staple in A's and one of the reasons the season did so well, with the page 12 cliffhanger at the end viewers will be at the edge of their seat.

Episode 4: 4 finishes the first fight with Veyron. Being that fights are often drawn out compared to their manga counterparts, this'll probably fill it a good part of the episode. Continuing with the bla bla parts afterwards, I'd end it with page 15 of chapter 5, as this leaves us with a light "who is that eyepatched girl?" cliffhanger.

Episode 5: Action episode! After the flashback Cypha enters, which means it's fighty time! Still quite a bit of talky here though, what with Thoma's flashbacks and all... We can probably edit that and put the two flashbacks together to keep the flow of the battle going, and end the fight with Signum's defeat and the flashbacks with Thoma going loco.

Episode 6: Hucks pick up Thoma & co, yada yada yada, end episode with TSAB arrival. It's a talky episode anyway, any leftover time can be used for some anime-original expanding of the characters.

Episode 7: Zooming through this shouldn't be too difficult. Maybe some minor shuffling of scenes with the editing and end it with chapter 10.

Episode 8: Combine chapters 11 and 12.

Episode 9: Combine 13 and 14, end with the screaming cliffhanger.

And that's what I have so far. Nine episodes. Could be more, could be less considering how we handle the talky scenes and the fighty scenes. Some filler here and there will be required, but as long as we make that filler useful by expanding on the characters or the plot it can work to improve the series as a whole.
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Old 2011-05-14, 04:31   Link #2060
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9 episodes? wow, that means it only rest 4 more episodes to end the Arc ...or the first half of the season depending on what format you're following(13 or 26 episodes). It will be amusing seeing things wrapped up into four episodes xDU

Jokes aside, the FORCE NEXT images sometimes have some "exciting" phrases on the black arrow a the top of the image in orange letters(for example: Cypha's one says something like "here! the number one swordswoman of the Huckebein family who defeats Signum and Agito" yeah -_-, they actually think we are going to forget that so they need to remind us of that xDU ....but whatever, now to the important thing) and the "Raptor" design have a phrase that reads something among the lines of "Here's Caledfwich Techniques last weapon, the new element that will be part of the last stage of this story". I don't have the image right now(my old PC dies and i'm busy with homework only posting this during a break), so i will return with a revised version of said statement but for now apparently FORCE will road to the second/last part of the current Arc and the Raptors will play a big part in it.
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