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Old 2011-05-14, 07:54   Link #81
Icy.Tear
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Join Date: Apr 2011
Irokane...is not as common as you think it is. I doubt that anyone in the world holds that large an amount of it.

Especially not a B rank. Irokane is the most destructive/powerful and rare metal on the planet.
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Old 2011-05-14, 08:08   Link #82
MeisterBabylon
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Back to enriched uranium then.
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Old 2011-05-14, 08:42   Link #83
FlameSparkZ
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Fighting demons and the like
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Originally Posted by MeisterBabylon View Post
Back to enriched uranium then.
That sounds....dangerous

And...though I've been thinking of OCs for HnA for a while, I've been holding back because of stuff like Irokane and other things.

So far, only have two thought out: 1 male and 1 female

And also cooked this up, and would like to hear everyone's opinion about it

Spoiler for HVS:

Came up with that some 5 minutes ago, so there may be flaws in it
If you want a mental image of HVS-state, think of Fate/Stay Night's Gilgamesh

*runs at the speed of sound*
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Old 2011-05-14, 09:21   Link #84
MeisterBabylon
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Originally Posted by FlameSparkZ View Post
That sounds....dangerous
Working as intended. I've updated the profile to show how her power interacts with uranium.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlameSparkZ View Post
Spoiler for HVS:
I'll smack it on EVERY loli OC I can find and have a Higurashi army!
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Old 2011-05-14, 09:29   Link #85
Saint X
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YoakeNoHikari View Post
Irokane...is not as common as you think it is. I doubt that anyone in the world holds that large an amount of it.

Especially not a B rank. Irokane is the most destructive/powerful and rare metal on the planet.
just as i thought.

Now for some short lines lol

Spoiler for What Amy is looking for? / Bring me:
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Old 2011-05-14, 09:37   Link #86
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
It's still an axe that's almost impossible to conceal if it's of any significant size.
Boarding axes are quite handy and small, some are even the size of climbing picks. It can be almost as short as 60cm. Daggers are concealable by nature (she can hide it under her sleeve, if it is a stiletto), and that cutlass is locked in her school locker, not hand carried.

Quote:
Tasers work better and have a contact mode if you need be.
By the time you switched you are already dead. Also, if the spring fails to eject, or if the contact head hits but the circuit dies, good luck.

A taser is a pretty risky weapon - if the needles don't go through the cloth, the guy will be very angry. If the person is sweaty, you risk short-circuiting the taser.

Quote:
What about them they're knives, they're of high quality, but nothing more.
Quote:
These aren't magic and in fact a constant problem has been that NONE of them have had the blend of properties that make metal so useful namely you can't sharpen, mill, stamp, etc it.
Manganese, molybdenum and chromium all add to the different qualities of the steel. The micro-serrated edge turns a slash into a sawing motion. I took the concept from the serrated blade part of the SOG multitool, a cute little toy I was issued with during my army days.

And besides, I never said the weapon was foolproof. Where did you get that from?

Quote:
Yeah... no, acutally it works more like this.

"The enemy struck from cover, lunging around the corner in a desperate grab for the rifle. The muzzle swung to meet him, but the burst was a moment too slow the rounds gouging the concrete floor as the attacker grabbed and cleared the weapon off him in the nick of time. A struggle ensued as the men wrestled for control of the weapon for a moment before the attacker yanked the weapon away in seeming triumphant... a moment before several shots rang out. The rifle clattered to the floor as the assistant staggered backward and collapsed from a half dozen 9mm slugs perforating his torso."
This isn't a movie. IRL, I dare you to try storming a house with only your rifle without a bayonet attachment.

Only the Taliban are dumb enough to struggle for the weapon. Smarter soldiers would have thrown a punch at the bridge of your nose, reached for your sidearm, hooked your leg and flipped you down, or even worse, if he grabs the barrel he is going to press it under your neck.

That is why a knife is useful. It prevents the attacker from trying to grab you, get closer than he already is, or make any random movements because he is going to get himself cut in the process.

Quote:
It's called a SIDEarm for a reason, a SWAT officer would NEVER pull a knife and try to stab a suspect if he somehow got a hold of his gun, and SWAT teams are what you should thinking of becasue technically these people are LAW enforcement, which by the way is another serious issue with bladed weapons which in the case of a large sword or axe are MORE lethal then guns.; if you cleave into someones torso with an Axe they're DEAD, or if you hit an arms you just frikkin' amputated that limb. "Police cleave suspects limbs off with battle axe" isn't exactly a good headline.
A sidearm is considered a secondary weapon. Some troopers carry sub-machine guns or PDWs instead of a pistol because it simply doesn't have the range or suppressive capability.

Also, how are you going to reach for your pistol when your master hand is already holding your rifle, but letting go of the rifle means the asshole is going to sock your face in with the butt? A knife, on the other hand, can be handled at no matter what position as long as you can reach for the hilt - overhand is thrust, underhand is stab. At a range of half your entire armlength, NEVER slash. Three basic rules of knife-fighting.

Finally, hand-to-hand combat is brutal and uglier than you think. Like any form of fighting, it is either he/she goes down permanently, or you do. And when someone goes down permanently, he/she is usually dead, or K.O.

Quote:
Now having said all that... I don't really mind this character as a concept. It's silly, but the setting is basically "action movie" and crazy melee fighters are a staple of that, but I'd get away from the technobabble stuff and just talk about the what, not the "how". It's one of those things that if you try to explain it just seems dumber. Like in Black Lagoon, by not even really acknowledging the super human feats a certain level of suspension of disbelief is maintained. When you go and try to somehow overly explain it, it just ends up amounting to either A. "its magic" or B. "That would NEVER work"
The next time your local armed forces have an open house, go there and watch the urban combat operators. "Realism" is nothing more than a "perspective" to them - if there is a way to get it done, it will be done.

This isn't magic. I have seen equipment being built and used like that. And they are usually custom made, incredibly rare and cost a bomb. The only thing to mitigate the cost factor is either by gift, hand-me-down or in most cases, DIY.

Quote:
So my advice is either A. just make the swords/users outright magic or drop the technobabble stuff and just have them do this silly stuff, but don't try and explain it with junk science.
Who are you? J.J Thomson and his pudding atom?

If you want junk science, look for intelligent design. That is not what I am talking about here, I am talking about MATERIALS SCIENCE. Also, Isaac Newton was proven wrong that his Laws of Gravity don't work for something that has no mass; light can be bent, but photons have no measurable mass - nothing is impossible in science because anything can be built with a plan, acquisition list and design.

If you are looking for someone to flame to assert your superiority, you are in the wrong place. If you want to prove me wrong, show me a real scientific experiment done that it is impossible. Don't just throw around your "it cannot be done" and just leave it there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by YoakeNoHikari View Post
Irokane...is not as common as you think it is. I doubt that anyone in the world holds that large an amount of it.

Especially not a B rank. Irokane is the most destructive/powerful and rare metal on the planet.
Irokane-steel alloy?

Chemistry 101 : As long as it is a metal with a malleable nature and non-liquid, it usually can be alloyed or plated/coated around something. It is due to the nature of metallic bonds - all you need to do is to rule out a base metal to work with and the properties you want it to have, and mess around with the composition until you get what you want.
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Last edited by SaintessHeart; 2011-05-14 at 09:58.
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Old 2011-05-14, 10:05   Link #87
MeisterBabylon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Irokane-steel alloy?

Chemistry 101 : As long as it is a metal with a malleable nature and non-liquid, it usually can be alloyed or plated/coated around something. It is due to the nature of metallic bonds - all you need to do is to rule out a base metal to work with and the properties you want it to have, and mess around with the composition until you get what you want.
Aha! 0.1% Gin-Irokane, 99.9% Nemo's secret recipe, and has to be recharged using the mini Hadron collider Nemo built in his workshop. Isara carries 3 such round shields, 2 on her back and one on her arm. Therefore, she can only sustain 15 mins of invulnerability at most (which then leaves her completely spent in terms of stamina as well)

So, for better management she turns the shield on as a reactive defence, and spends more of the power on shield tosses and heals.
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Old 2011-05-14, 10:22   Link #88
tsunade666
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you only need small amount of Irokane to use an ability. Since it's really rare element.

It often use as a jewel on an accessory or rarely on a bullet.
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Old 2011-05-14, 10:23   Link #89
Sheba
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Naval Base in the rectum of Pacific Ocean
Age: 34
Giving a try, it's been a while since I have done that:

The "You should not make them angry" duo, otherwise nice folks to get along with.

Character .1

Spoiler for portrait:


Name: Kirsten "Kirsty" Vikernes
(theorical) VA: Mamiko Noto
Nationality: Norwegian
Age: 16
Class: 1st year
Butei Rank: B
Ancestor: That unknown viking
Department: Assault
Bloodline Ability: Berserker Fury
Weapon:A short battle axe with a chain and a weighted ball attached to the other side of the axe head. Based on the concept of the kusarigama. She mainly uses the chain to disarm and trip, the ball & the blunt part of the axe to knock out, and the axe head for intimidation tactics. This is her main weapon. As secondary weapon, she carries a Heckler & Koch P30 semi-automatic pistol.
Friends: Sanae Noriaki, Amelie D'Artagnan, Fiorenza Diotallevi and Preston Lee Whitworth.
Character Quotes:

"You wouldn't like me when I'm angry."
"I told you to not do that."


Background:
Spoiler:


Personality:
Spoiler:


Ability:
Spoiler:


Trivia
Spoiler:




Character .2


Spoiler for portrait:


Name: Preston Lee Whitworth
(theorical) VA: Minoru Shiraishi
Nationality: British (English, not Welsh, not Scottish, not Northen Irish, he makes a point about it)
Age: 17
Class: 2nd year
Butei Rank: A
Ancestor:
Spoiler:

Department: Medica
Bloodline Ability: The Hands and eyes of the Doctor.
Weapon:Scalpels, needle and thread (main). Sig 232 (secondary)
Friends: Sanae Noriaki, Amelie D'Artagnan, Fiorenza Diotallevi, Kirsten Vikernes.
Character Quotes:

"Don't mind me, I am just here for damage control. Please carry on your business."
"Please, my bloodline have no bearing over my actual personality. Would you please let my acts speak for themselves?"
"Yes, I do a watered down version of Hokuto Shin Ken. Without the explosions."


Background:
Spoiler:


Personality:
Spoiler:


Ability:
Spoiler:


Trivia
Spoiler:

Last edited by Sheba; 2011-06-08 at 13:28. Reason: Typo, addendum and retcon
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Old 2011-05-14, 10:43   Link #90
Tempy
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I just wanna remind folks that for all the fancy guns, blades, funky magical powers, etc, Butei are not supposed to kill, as demanded by Butei Law 9.

@SaintessHeart: calm down, man.
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Old 2011-05-14, 11:27   Link #91
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempy View Post
I just wanna remind folks that for all the fancy guns, blades, funky magical powers, etc, Butei are not supposed to kill, as demanded by Butei Law 9.

@SaintessHeart: calm down, man.
I am not going to take the double-insult of "technobabble" and "junk science" lying down when I am not spouting intelligent design, and where my idea lies somewhere between the region of science fiction and non-fiction with possibilities to be explored and story ideas to be exemplified.

I take my science seriously and I do my best to turn it into workable fiction basing it on the fundamentals of both theory and practical, as well as experience. If anyone has ideas, share. Any corrections that can be made, point out and provide proof. That is civility; not half-past-six "it is rubbish and cannot be done" replies without any technical backing which is a taunt to start a flame war.

Back to the topic, Butei Law 9 is followed as a guideline. Any weapon that can kill can be used to injure, for example, security troops wielding shotguns often fire at the leg so the pellets will disable the person. Of course, there is a risk of blowing their leg off entirely; nonetheless if weapons are not to be used to kill, why wield them?
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Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2011-05-14, 11:34   Link #92
Wild Goose
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Which century do you live in?
As bears repeating, I grew up in a jungle in the middle of nowhere and only achieved broadband about 5 years ago. Despite my command of English (which has caused me to become the de facto SOP/Manual/Official Document/Memo writer of my company's Customer Service Centre for both Malaysia and Singapore branches), I'm a Malaysian national.

As a result of living in the middle of nowhere, what tools we had were utilitarian and simple, a fact that has since influenced me in daily life, and has thus influenced my OC.

Now mind you this can be used to show differing opinions - we've got an SSR OC with exotic weaponry and special abilities on her side, clashing opinions with an Assault OC who's more down to earth and has no special abilities beyond a near-photographic memory for music, Bad Boys 2 and Hot Fuzz.

Quote:
Have you even seen a folding axe before? Or heard of metamaterials? Stun batons? Ginsu knives?
I've seen folding axes, but the idea of a folding axe that folds down into a baton strikes me as a bit odd. Also, while obviously anyone can use anything as a weapon - see Jackie Chan for a more humorous fountain of examples - the idea behind a folding axe is as a portable tool.

Also, you didn't mention stun batons. I'm aware those exist.

Again, as I said, our differing opinions between the exotic and the mundane.

Quote:
You are JOKING. Soldiers DO bring knives to gunfights!

Nothing beats a good old dagger to the gut when some bastard round the corner grabs your gun and points it away.
TK has said most of what I'd say on this.

I just want to chime in that in much of my reading of books and millblogs a common theme in house clearing is that fixed bayonets is rarely used as it increases the length of the rifle, and makes it harder to handle in close quarters.

I'll have to reaquire that book to quote properly, but author Dick Couch wrote on SEAL Qualification Training in one of his books, The Finishing School - knife combat was discussed, as also what to do when the rifle is grabbed. In very few cases were SEALs encouraged to knife fight the opponent; rather as the opponent grabs the rifle, SEALs were taught to use rifle and opponent's momentum against him to club him to the ground. And then shoot.

Quote:
Ever heard of a concrete saw?
Only concrete drill heads, of which I have a few in my Dad's tool box. That said... it's a hugeass damned thing which needs power to be able to move the blade fast enough to cut. Now okay, if Ayari's weapon is using Irokane and it's a special ability then fine, but there's a reason you don't see concrete saws used much by SWAT teams.

... I should note, however, that Jon's preferred method of entry by a wall is mouse-holing.

Quote:
Also I was thinking of swapping out the MP7 with the Five-seveN, with an automatic function, and a bottom-open clip that allows attachment to the P90's magazine, plus a C96 type stock. Need to work on the feed design because dual-clip systems tend to jam more often, and carrying too many different ammo types sound crazy.
*twitches*

Given the amount of work that has to go into this... why not just stick to the MP7? With all the bits folded down and a 20-round mag it's not much larger than a Mk. 23. Plus, you don't have to worry about time for making this and/or costs.

Again, remember, for all the fancy guns, Butei cannot kill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Boarding axes are quite handy and small, some are even the size of climbing picks. It can be almost as short as 60cm. Daggers are concealable by nature (she can hide it under her sleeve, if it is a stiletto), and that cutlass is locked in her school locker, not hand carried.
I had no problems at all with the dagger. In fact, I actually think that would be quite deadly indeed. So long as it didn't get caught, that is - the Demon Murphy stalks us daily, and we must take into account all that he can and will do to fuck us up.

Quote:
By the time you switched you are already dead. Also, if the spring fails to eject, or if the contact head hits but the circuit dies, good luck.

A taser is a pretty risky weapon - if the needles don't go through the cloth, the guy will be very angry. If the person is sweaty, you risk short-circuiting the taser.
Don't the same issues also affect stun batons, then? [Curious]

Quote:
Manganese, molybdenum and chromium all add to the different qualities of the steel. The micro-serrated edge turns a slash into a sawing motion. I took the concept from the serrated blade part of the SOG multitool, a cute little toy I was issued with during my army days.

And besides, I never said the weapon was foolproof. Where did you get that from?
He never said anything about it being foolproof either, dude. Chill.

Quote:
This isn't a movie. IRL, I dare you to try storming a house with only your rifle without a bayonet attachment.

Only the Taliban are dumb enough to struggle for the weapon. Smarter soldiers would have thrown a punch at the bridge of your nose, reached for your sidearm, hooked your leg and flipped you down, or even worse, if he grabs the barrel he is going to press it under your neck.

That is why a knife is useful. It prevents the attacker from trying to grab you, get closer than he already is, or make any random movements because he is going to get himself cut in the process.
See my earlier comments above. Also, if the bayonet is attached to the rifle, aren't you out of a knife already? unless you're carrying a personal knife in addition to the issue bayonet.


Quote:
A sidearm is considered a secondary weapon. Some troopers carry sub-machine guns or PDWs instead of a pistol because it simply doesn't have the range or suppressive capability.

Also, how are you going to reach for your pistol when your master hand is already holding your rifle, but letting go of the rifle means the asshole is going to sock your face in with the butt? A knife, on the other hand, can be handled at no matter what position as long as you can reach for the hilt - overhand is thrust, underhand is stab. At a range of half your entire armlength, NEVER slash. Three basic rules of knife-fighting.

Finally, hand-to-hand combat is brutal and uglier than you think. Like any form of fighting, it is either he/she goes down permanently, or you do. And when someone goes down permanently, he/she is usually dead, or K.O.
What has been forgotten, and what we need to remember, is that this is not Iraq and our OCs are not troops - they are at most SWAT cops and suspects need to be apprehended, not killed. Also, criminals do not, as a general rule, posses the same amounts of resistance as do illegal combatants.

Quote:
The next time your local armed forces have an open house, go there and watch the urban combat operators. "Realism" is nothing more than a "perspective" to them - if there is a way to get it done, it will be done.

This isn't magic. I have seen equipment being built and used like that. And they are usually custom made, incredibly rare and cost a bomb. The only thing to mitigate the cost factor is either by gift, hand-me-down or in most cases, DIY.
If you have examples of the like, I'd appreciate it if you could share - generally the Malaysian perspective with regards these things tends to be rather conventional - infiltrate from the roof, storm the front door or windows, sneak in from the jungle to the jungle huts where hostages are kept...

Quote:
Who are you? J.J Thomson and his pudding atom?
Who? What?

Quote:
If you want junk science, look for intelligent design. That is not what I am talking about here, I am talking about MATERIALS SCIENCE. Also, Isaac Newton was proven wrong that his Laws of Gravity don't work for something that has no mass; light can be bent, but photons have no measurable mass - nothing is impossible in science because anything can be built with a plan, acquisition list and design.
I have my own opinions on intelligent design but that's neither here or there - though I do think that the idea that everything exists as a result of random unplanned evolution to be a bit... odd.

...as for the materials science rant, how'd that come about?

Quote:
If you are looking for someone to flame to assert your superiority, you are in the wrong place. If you want to prove me wrong, show me a real scientific experiment done that it is impossible. Don't just throw around your "it cannot be done" and just leave it there.
Mate, this isn't flaming at all. If TK flames you, you'll know you've been flamed, and he doesn't do that anymore. This is just him being penetratingly nit picky, hammering holes so that one can fix up the holes or provide a better justification.

Mind you the only real justification anyone needs is rule of cool - I'm a bit surprised that my personal views have actually triggered this long... thing. Whatever it is.

Nothing is meant personally and no offense is offered.

But in addition to Tempest's comment on Aria, I'd like to offer my own summation: in videogame terms, Hidan no Aria OC is less Modern Warfare and more...

... Police Quest.

And as I said earlier, this makes for a certain degree of conflict/charecter building with OCs, which all can use:

Spoiler for Exotic and Mundane:


BTW, am wondering - are you West Malaysian?
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Old 2011-05-14, 11:40   Link #93
Sheba
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Location: Naval Base in the rectum of Pacific Ocean
Age: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Back to the topic, Butei Law 9 is followed as a guideline. Any weapon that can kill can be used to injure, for example, security troops wielding shotguns often fire at the leg so the pellets will disable the person. Of course, there is a risk of blowing their leg off entirely; nonetheless if weapons are not to be used to kill, why wield them?
No offense meant, but even Sousuke Sagara had more common sense than that, for he would use rubber rounds. And I am talking about the motherfucking Sousuke.
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Old 2011-05-14, 11:48   Link #94
Wild Goose
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Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
I am not going to take the double-insult of "technobabble" and "junk science" lying down when I am not spouting intelligent design, and where my idea lies somewhere between the region of science fiction and non-fiction with possibilities to be explored and story ideas to be exemplified.

I take my science seriously and I do my best to turn it into workable fiction basing it on the fundamentals of both theory and practical, as well as experience. If anyone has ideas, share. Any corrections that can be made, point out and provide proof. That is civility; not half-past-six "it is rubbish and cannot be done" replies without any technical backing which is a taunt to start a flame war.
Noted, but you don't need to lose your shirt over it.

Also, do note that he never said anything about things being rubbish and cannot be done, rather that from a storyline perspective, the more you try to explain the more the suspension disbelief falls apart, so just saying rule of cool and letting go works better sometimes.

Hell, I'll give an example: Modern Warfare Mission 3, where Soap, Price and Gaz break Nikolai out of captivity. The helicopter coming to extract them is a gray UH-60 Blackhawk in RAF markings, piloted by two pilots wearing uniforms worn by the Russian Spetsnaz and speaking American Accented English.

If you think about it too much, you ask questions like "Why are the RAF using Blackhawks when they use Merlins instead, why are they speaking American English, why are two Russian Spetsnaz flying an RAF chopper..."

See my point?

Quote:
Back to the topic, Butei Law 9 is followed as a guideline. Any weapon that can kill can be used to injure, for example, security troops wielding shotguns often fire at the leg so the pellets will disable the person. Of course, there is a risk of blowing their leg off entirely; nonetheless if weapons are not to be used to kill, why wield them?
*facepalms*

Paraphrasing Massad Ayoub, police officers are issued weapons to protect themselves, but killing is not the first resort; lethal weapons are intended to intimidate the suspect into surrendering, and for self defense, or to protect civillians.

The service weapon is a weapon of protection. That is the intention behind a police weapon. It contrasts with a military weapon, which is intended to kill the enemy. The usage depends on the intent of the user.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
No offense meant, but even Sousuke Sagara had more common sense than that, for he would use rubber rounds. And I am talking about the motherfucking Sousuke.
And tear gas, pepper spray, stun guns and tasers.

... goddamnit I knew I'd forgotten more kit!

But yes, rubber rounds are a viable choice of ammunition... though from what I've seen the kids are using ball. Note the Paras in Northern Ireland, who were issued rubber rounds, and apparently so are Air Marshalls in the US.

Also, from observations and reading of SWAT tactics, I note that patrol cars with shotguns would tend to have buckshot, but in SWAT usage shotguns are loaded with breaching rounds to breach doors, as an alternative to battering rams. And then there's also nonlethal beanbag rounds for shotguns, as well as the taser shell.
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Old 2011-05-14, 12:11   Link #95
Tempy
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Hotsprings Resort
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
I am not going to take the double-insult of "technobabble" and "junk science" lying down when I am not spouting intelligent design, and where my idea lies somewhere between the region of science fiction and non-fiction with possibilities to be explored and story ideas to be exemplified.

I take my science seriously and I do my best to turn it into workable fiction basing it on the fundamentals of both theory and practical, as well as experience. If anyone has ideas, share. Any corrections that can be made, point out and provide proof. That is civility; not half-past-six "it is rubbish and cannot be done" replies without any technical backing which is a taunt to start a flame war.
Then you should be fine rebutting the claims, rather than counter-demanding that they show proof. I realize you take things seriously, but don't let it get you hot under the collar.

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Back to the topic, Butei Law 9 is followed as a guideline. Any weapon that can kill can be used to injure, for example, security troops wielding shotguns often fire at the leg so the pellets will disable the person. Of course, there is a risk of blowing their leg off entirely; nonetheless if weapons are not to be used to kill, why wield them?
Sure, any law can be broken in some way, be it accident or purposeful, but doing so would undermine the meaning behind the Butei Laws. In doing so, a Butei wouldn't really be a Butei anymore, but a common cop. It kinda ruins the purpose, ya know? I mean, why create the Butei when you can just invest in more police (overly simplified, but the meaning's the same)?

Certainly, there probably have been moments when Law 9 had to be broken, or close to it (as seen in Ep 5), but that comes down to choice. If you allow me to pick at your stuff a bit, having a railgun-pistol that shoots a .50 or .69 caliber ball doesn't seem very safe.

At the same time, I do ponder how the hell does certain someones avoid killing their target, since these certain someones uses a damn M60 machine gun or a S&W 500. These weapons certainly lack a gentle touch.

Well, whatever. As long as purposefully-lethal shots are not done, I don't think any Butei would be in trouble if their shot-to-the-shoulder ricocheted off the shoulder blade and bounced into the heart. Here's to hoping no one thinks of bringing along a lasgun or a goddamn bolter.
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Old 2011-05-14, 13:00   Link #96
SaintessHeart
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Join Date: Nov 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
As bears repeating, I grew up in a jungle in the middle of nowhere and only achieved broadband about 5 years ago. Despite my command of English (which has caused me to become the de facto SOP/Manual/Official Document/Memo writer of my company's Customer Service Centre for both Malaysia and Singapore branches), I'm a Malaysian national.

As a result of living in the middle of nowhere, what tools we had were utilitarian and simple, a fact that has since influenced me in daily life, and has thus influenced my OC.

Now mind you this can be used to show differing opinions - we've got an SSR OC with exotic weaponry and special abilities on her side, clashing opinions with an Assault OC who's more down to earth and has no special abilities beyond a near-photographic memory for music, Bad Boys 2 and Hot Fuzz.
I am dyslexic and have bad command of practically every single language - I write in a certain pattern so as to keep track of what I wrote - and that pattern comes from mostly technical writeouts.

If what I write is confusing, ask. Don't deride.

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I've seen folding axes, but the idea of a folding axe that folds down into a baton strikes me as a bit odd. Also, while obviously anyone can use anything as a weapon - see Jackie Chan for a more humorous fountain of examples - the idea behind a folding axe is as a portable tool.

Also, you didn't mention stun batons. I'm aware those exist.

Again, as I said, our differing opinions between the exotic and the mundane.
The tonfa doesn't kill, but it looks less dangerous than an axe. Psychology is part of combat - flip the handle in and the axe blade comes out on the other end..

Besides, the dagger can't reach places just a little longer than the arm. The axe does. Also, a boarding axe adds the capability to hook onto places.

Simply put, it is a piece of equipment that has more use than just simply attack - it creates opportunities for more unconventional battle tactics, like every other weapon she owns.

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TK has said most of what I'd say on this.

I just want to chime in that in much of my reading of books and millblogs a common theme in house clearing is that fixed bayonets is rarely used as it increases the length of the rifle, and makes it harder to handle in close quarters.
If you look through one of the Royal Marine Commando engagements in Afghanistan videos, they fix bayonets on the L85s when searching houses.

Also, there is a rifle fighting technique for urban-fighting, and there are a few moves that were taught to counter weapon grabs. I learnt that.

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I'll have to reaquire that book to quote properly, but author Dick Couch wrote on SEAL Qualification Training in one of his books, The Finishing School - knife combat was discussed, as also what to do when the rifle is grabbed. In very few cases were SEALs encouraged to knife fight the opponent; rather as the opponent grabs the rifle, SEALs were taught to use rifle and opponent's momentum against him to club him to the ground. And then shoot.
In CQB, decisions are made in split seconds, and the party that makes the most mistakes usually sustain the most injuries. I'd rather take my chances with an off-hand punch or knife than to execute some complex momentum-throw technique - remember that your body does not move the way you want it to when you are tired, so the knife is more practical.

Your enemy either let go of the gun or grabs your knife, either way he is technically the one at higher risk because the weapons are both pointed at him.

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Only concrete drill heads, of which I have a few in my Dad's tool box. That said... it's a hugeass damned thing which needs power to be able to move the blade fast enough to cut. Now okay, if Ayari's weapon is using Irokane and it's a special ability then fine, but there's a reason you don't see concrete saws used much by SWAT teams.
Concrete saws are used when you want to cut out a specific section. My idea is that she simply wanted to hit someone behind a wall. Run the blade through it, and he's incapacitated.

And being someone with a short-temper, she has PLENTY of people whom she wants to kill.

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Given the amount of work that has to go into this... why not just stick to the MP7? With all the bits folded down and a 20-round mag it's not much larger than a Mk. 23. Plus, you don't have to worry about time for making this and/or costs.
Different round. The 5-7 uses 5.7mm rounds, while the MP7 uses 4.6mm. Carrying too many different types of ammo isn't a very smart thing to do.

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I had no problems at all with the dagger. In fact, I actually think that would be quite deadly indeed. So long as it didn't get caught, that is - the Demon Murphy stalks us daily, and we must take into account all that he can and will do to fuck us up.
The dagger was given a piano wire for a reason - mid-range control in flight. And being a wire it doesn't get cut as easily as a string.

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Don't the same issues also affect stun batons, then? [Curious]
It does. But stun batons are heavier - I know I am safe with one because when it doesn't work, I can bludgeon the hell of whoever I am using it on.

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See my earlier comments above. Also, if the bayonet is attached to the rifle, aren't you out of a knife already? unless you're carrying a personal knife in addition to the issue bayonet.
Ok so THIS is the issue. We are apparently having a misunderstanding because I am bringing in RL experience as an analogy with regards to melee weapons and close combat, while it gets more confusing when you guys use a different concept.

Secondly, even if we are attaching a bayonet, we don't aim downsight when storming a room, it is at hip-fire position. Besides, there isn't a need to aim because most engagements are less than 25m, at semi-automatic you should be able to hit anything you can't stab.

Thirdly, there is another knife, either in the form of a multitool or a flip-jackknife. Or the helmet headbutt then bayonet attack. Melee-ing is always recommended because there is no luxury of time to reload inside a house, threats can reach you in less than a second.

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What has been forgotten, and what we need to remember, is that this is not Iraq and our OCs are not troops - they are at most SWAT cops and suspects need to be apprehended, not killed. Also, criminals do not, as a general rule, posses the same amounts of resistance as do illegal combatants.
Wrong. SERIOUSLY wrong. What about serial killers? They resist by hiding and attacking - it is psychology of self-defence combined with malevolent intent, the deluded criminal will seek to kill as many as he/she wants and attempt to get away from it all the time.

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If you have examples of the like, I'd appreciate it if you could share - generally the Malaysian perspective with regards these things tends to be rather conventional - infiltrate from the roof, storm the front door or windows, sneak in from the jungle to the jungle huts where hostages are kept...
That is only available for jungle warfare, where buildings are usually constructed simply for the purpose of shelter so there aren't alot of corners to turn or stairs to climb (but lots of buildings). Close quarters can take place in urban combat (tons of corners and covers), naval shipboarding (if the enemy wasn't here, he is elsewhere but still on the ship), desert warfare (to storm a building, you have to cover 100m of open ground while the assholes are firing at you from that building), winter warfare (getting your foot bogged in snow while running towards the building, like desert warfare). Conditions are different and fighting styles are catered for on a case-by-case basis.

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Who? What?
Google. I could explain everything to you in 10 minutes and a wall-of-text, but you wouldn't show any interest in it unless you found out about it yourself.

Quote:
BTW, am wondering - are you West Malaysian?
Singaporean.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Noted, but you don't need to lose your shirt over it.
I will if he uses words like that again. When you gather thistles, expect bristles; don't flamebait by dismissing other people's ideas.

Quote:
Also, do note that he never said anything about things being rubbish and cannot be done, rather that from a storyline perspective, the more you try to explain the more the suspension disbelief falls apart, so just saying rule of cool and letting go works better sometimes.
The thing about a storyline and the rule of cool, is that details must match the abilities that are to be executed or even part of a battle. The suspension of disbelief, if brought into the context, amounts of fridge brilliance instead.

And I just revealed her entire armoury of Chekov guns.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempy View Post
Then you should be fine rebutting the claims, rather than counter-demanding that they show proof. I realize you take things seriously, but don't let it get you hot under the collar.
There is no point in creating something when you don't take it seriously!
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Last edited by SaintessHeart; 2011-05-14 at 13:11.
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Old 2011-05-14, 13:10   Link #97
Keroko
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Age: 26
On buttei law 9, we must remember that in anime non-lethal shots and cuts are infinitely easier than they are in real life, which makes the rule somewhat easier to use in fiction. Cutting someone with a sword in real life? Better hope you miss any important organs or start dialing for an ambulance. Cutting someone in anime? 'Tis but a scratch.
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Old 2011-05-14, 14:02   Link #98
Wild Goose
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Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
I am dyslexic and have bad command of practically every single language - I write in a certain pattern so as to keep track of what I wrote - and that pattern comes from mostly technical writeouts.

If what I write is confusing, ask. Don't deride.
Well, now that we've gotten our backgrounds straight, we can now do glorious battle!

...except that you've gotten more of my background than I yours. Also what derision? I'm merely repeating my disclaimer that my background is influencing my current line of thought. (As well as getting out a disclaimer that I'm Malaysian. An aunt of an American penpal of mine once thought I was an American pretending to be someone else to e-stalk her niece, on account of my command of English. Wasn't funny then... now, I can laugh about it.)

If anything, I'd thought you'd honestly forgotten my background, so rather than kick you to an earlier post I'd repeat it...

...admittedly I tend to be a rather sarcastic person IRL.

Quote:
The tonfa doesn't kill, but it looks less dangerous than an axe. Psychology is part of combat - flip the handle in and the axe blade comes out on the other end..

Besides, the dagger can't reach places just a little longer than the arm. The axe does. Also, a boarding axe adds the capability to hook onto places.

Simply put, it is a piece of equipment that has more use than just simply attack - it creates opportunities for more unconventional battle tactics, like every other weapon she owns.
I'm still undecided about this but i'll reserve judgement until i see the finished product.

*shrugs* at the end of the day all improbable weapons must have seemed equally naff until they were eventually shown and proven to be useful. I'd say we'll have to agree to disagree here, based on our differing paradigms. I'm still not convinced - so you'll have to convince me by writing.

Quote:
If you look through one of the Royal Marine Commando engagements in Afghanistan videos, they fix bayonets on the L85s when searching houses.

Also, there is a rifle fighting technique for urban-fighting, and there are a few moves that were taught to counter weapon grabs. I learnt that.
*shrugs* I'm basing of what I've read in the American context. American units generally do not favor fixed bayonets.

Quote:
In CQB, decisions are made in split seconds, and the party that makes the most mistakes usually sustain the most injuries. I'd rather take my chances with an off-hand punch or knife than to execute some complex momentum-throw technique - remember that your body does not move the way you want it to when you are tired, so the knife is more practical.

Your enemy either let go of the gun or grabs your knife, either way he is technically the one at higher risk because the weapons are both pointed at him.
Again, not me - I'm referring to what is taught at SQT, and since they've been doing this for 40 years one might have an expectation that they know what they're doing... *shrugs*


Quote:
Concrete saws are used when you want to cut out a specific section. My idea is that she simply wanted to hit someone behind a wall. Run the blade through it, and he's incapacitated.

And being someone with a short-temper, she has PLENTY of people whom she wants to kill.
Again, law enforcement. We're supposed to apprehend suspects, not kill them.

Especially since the paperwork for killing suspects would be horrendus and IA would get involved.

Quote:
Different round. The 5-7 uses 5.7mm rounds, while the MP7 uses 4.6mm. Carrying too many different types of ammo isn't a very smart thing to do.
I'm aware that the MP7 and Five-seveN use different rounds. What I was trying to say was that you may want to consider dropping the Five-seveN entirely for the MP7, which in the folded down mode isn't that much larger than a large full frame pistol.

Though in the end Amdo does custom mods like Kinji's semi/burst/full auto 92FS, so your proposal is not inconceivable. It's just that having spent pretty much my entire life making do with less I'd rather not go through the trouble.

But again, this is your OC. It's up to you how you want to write. Us, we're just here to hammer away like iron forges iron.

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The dagger was given a piano wire for a reason - mid-range control in flight. And being a wire it doesn't get cut as easily as a string.
I wasn't talking about the cutting - I got that immediately when I saw piano wire - I was referring to getting tangled or caught on something. Slim chance, perhaps, but the Demon Murphy always trips us up.

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It does. But stun batons are heavier - I know I am safe with one because when it doesn't work, I can bludgeon the hell of whoever I am using it on.
Okay, I can see the point.

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Ok so THIS is the issue. We are apparently having a misunderstanding because I am bringing in RL experience as an analogy with regards to melee weapons and close combat, while it gets more confusing when you guys use a different concept.

Secondly, even if we are attaching a bayonet, we don't aim downsight when storming a room, it is at hip-fire position. Besides, there isn't a need to aim because most engagements are less than 25m, at semi-automatic you should be able to hit anything you can't stab.

Thirdly, there is another knife, either in the form of a multitool or a flip-jackknife. Or the helmet headbutt then bayonet attack. Melee-ing is always recommended because there is no luxury of time to reload inside a house, threats can reach you in less than a second.
*shrug* And yet SWAT teams don't enter rooms with fixed bayonets - nor did the SAS when they stormed the Iranian Embassy.

Again, agree to disagree, etc - but the scenario you're mentioning doesn't seem to have come up very often. Something I once read about bayonets is that the idea of fixed bayonets is more often than not a morale booster, fitting into the minds of troops the idea of no mercy, fighting on till the end, etc etc.

Police Quest. Not Modern Warfare.

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Wrong. SERIOUSLY wrong. What about serial killers? They resist by hiding and attacking - it is psychology of self-defence combined with malevolent intent, the deluded criminal will seek to kill as many as he/she wants and attempt to get away from it all the time.
Perhaps, and yet it's not a regular occurence - most serial killer arrests that I've read about note that the killers come quietly. Robbery, on the other hand, seems to be a harder breed of criminal - and yet big shootouts also aren't that common (though the North Hollywood Shootout and the Miami Massacare continue to grip attention).

Also, note that I said "as a general rule." There are always exceptions to the general rule. Privity of contract is upheld as a general rule, but there are various exceptions such as duress, exclusion clauses, etc.

As a general rule people's hair does not turn white at puberty. Of my A-Levels class in KK, out of 30 students 5 of them had white hair at the age of 18. (Again, another example of the demonstration of the general rule concept, which is always subject to exceptions.)

Quote:
That is only available for jungle warfare, where buildings are usually constructed simply for the purpose of shelter so there aren't alot of corners to turn or stairs to climb (but lots of buildings). Close quarters can take place in urban combat (tons of corners and covers), naval shipboarding (if the enemy wasn't here, he is elsewhere but still on the ship), desert warfare (to storm a building, you have to cover 100m of open ground while the assholes are firing at you from that building), winter warfare (getting your foot bogged in snow while running towards the building, like desert warfare). Conditions are different and fighting styles are catered for on a case-by-case basis.
I knew shouldn't have mentioned the last and confused you further, though the local defense mags note that most excercises are jungle/beach insertion.

The whole infiltrate and storm the front door and windows was what's normally done by UTK for urban CQB, and then they proceed to the room clearing that's never photographed. From what the local defense mags have revealed generally UTK follows the British and American playbooks: battering ram or breaching shotgun, followed by room clearing with judicious applications of flashbangs, when coming in from the front door; alternatively roof or window insertion.

That said, let's be honest - the HnA paradigm is mostly an urban environment, so, again, any other examples you can share?


Quote:
Google. I could explain everything to you in 10 minutes and a wall-of-text, but you wouldn't show any interest in it unless you found out about it yourself.
The dude who discovered the electron. So basically your point is that TK's old fashioned? How was that not derisive on your part?

Quote:
Singaporean.
I only ask because I've only heard that term on the Peninsula. Curiousity satisfied.

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I will if he uses words like that again. When you gather thistles, expect bristles; don't flamebait by dismissing other people's ideas.
*raises eyebrow*

... yeah, it's so much more meaningful and nuanced when you do it in real life.

Quote:
There is no point in creating something when you don't take it seriously!
There is a point that one must take into account, in that one cannot let this consume onself...

.... it's three AM in the morning. [James May] Cock. [/James May] I'd better hit the rack.

...also... no love for that little snippet? <_<
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Old 2011-05-14, 14:58   Link #99
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Well, now that we've gotten our backgrounds straight, we can now do glorious battle!

...except that you've gotten more of my background than I yours. Also what derision? I'm merely repeating my disclaimer that my background is influencing my current line of thought. (As well as getting out a disclaimer that I'm Malaysian. An aunt of an American penpal of mine once thought I was an American pretending to be someone else to e-stalk her niece, on account of my command of English. Wasn't funny then... now, I can laugh about it.)

If anything, I'd thought you'd honestly forgotten my background, so rather than kick you to an earlier post I'd repeat it...

...admittedly I tend to be a rather sarcastic person IRL.
You might want to read what this member named Ascaloth wrote throughout the General Chat thread. That is real caustic sarcasm, and the abuse of English literature at its finest.

Quote:
I'm still undecided about this but i'll reserve judgement until i see the finished product.

*shrugs* at the end of the day all improbable weapons must have seemed equally naff until they were eventually shown and proven to be useful. I'd say we'll have to agree to disagree here, based on our differing paradigms. I'm still not convinced - so you'll have to convince me by writing.
I am certainly not writing! I am adding my characters for other people to use, just like in IS.

Technical designs though, are a different issue. I prefer to draw and design.

Quote:
*shrugs* I'm basing of what I've read in the American context. American units generally do not favor fixed bayonets.
No wonder the ANZAC SASR were grumbling about them ditching their backpacks and running for cover instead of carrying them along.

By right, they are supposed to carry the packs along because they hold surplus ammunition, though not filled into magazines, they are clipped together.

American doctrine seems to be shoot-first talk-later. Not very long term.

Quote:
Again, not me - I'm referring to what is taught at SQT, and since they've been doing this for 40 years one might have an expectation that they know what they're doing... *shrugs*
I got mine from experience working with RL troopers in the army. Maybe different combat doctrine?

Quote:
Again, law enforcement. We're supposed to apprehend suspects, not kill them.

Especially since the paperwork for killing suspects would be horrendus and IA would get involved.
Erm no, paperwork for dead suspects are easier unless there is a court, NOK or public enquiry. It is only the "death-by-what" report and the death certificate, the difficult thing is that more people have to countersign.

Quote:
I'm aware that the MP7 and Five-seveN use different rounds. What I was trying to say was that you may want to consider dropping the Five-seveN entirely for the MP7, which in the folded down mode isn't that much larger than a large full frame pistol.

Though in the end Amdo does custom mods like Kinji's semi/burst/full auto 92FS, so your proposal is not inconceivable. It's just that having spent pretty much my entire life making do with less I'd rather not go through the trouble.
The MP7 is much bulkier and almost three times the weight of the 5-7. The gun concepts are totally different - I want a small but well-rounded gun that can be easily handled - though cocking the weapon might be an issue.

I don't want the P90 because it is an ugly gun.

Quote:
*shrug* And yet SWAT teams don't enter rooms with fixed bayonets - nor did the SAS when they stormed the Iranian Embassy.
Remember that the Iranian Embassy is pretty roomy even along the corridors, otherwise they wouldn't have blasted the window apart.

Besides, the MP5 is quite hard to grab because the other hand already takes up the entire of the handguard. The trooper could easily ventilate the nut playing hide-and-seek round the corner because he had nothing to grab. However, if he is holding a rifle, the terrorist could have grabbed the muzzle.

Also, SWAT teams are not limited by the amount of ground they have to cover, the limitations of manpower size, or the standard issue arms soldiers tend to be given. SWAT teams don't have to make do, soldiers do because of a difference in geographical intel.

Quote:
Again, agree to disagree, etc - but the scenario you're mentioning doesn't seem to have come up very often. Something I once read about bayonets is that the idea of fixed bayonets is more often than not a morale booster, fitting into the minds of troops the idea of no mercy, fighting on till the end, etc etc.

Police Quest. Not Modern Warfare.
It is real life combat doctrine. It is recommended to fix the bayonet because of a whole list of issues like weapons issued, room conditions, no intel - tell you what, why don't you sign for the army and learn how troopers really fight in urban environments instead of quoting off stuff from combat mags? It gets kind of difficult to explain things to people when they never got a punch in their face from round a corner, or how some peekaboos from the same place can mistake the bayonet for the muzzle then cut their hands silly.

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Perhaps, and yet it's not a regular occurence - most serial killer arrests that I've read about note that the killers come quietly. Robbery, on the other hand, seems to be a harder breed of criminal - and yet big shootouts also aren't that common (though the North Hollywood Shootout and the Miami Massacare continue to grip attention).
The reason why most serial killers come quietly is because they treat they know they totally suck in fighting in an all-out environment. There is this guy who killed 4 cops last year in a cafe, then was shot by a cop trying to apprehend him because he tried to draw a carbine.

Quote:
I knew shouldn't have mentioned the last and confused you further, though the local defense mags note that most excercises are jungle/beach insertion.

The whole infiltrate and storm the front door and windows was what's normally done by UTK for urban CQB, and then they proceed to the room clearing that's never photographed. From what the local defense mags have revealed generally UTK follows the British and American playbooks: battering ram or breaching shotgun, followed by room clearing with judicious applications of flashbangs, when coming in from the front door; alternatively roof or window insertion.

That said, let's be honest - the HnA paradigm is mostly an urban environment, so, again, any other examples you can share?
I think you are the one who is confused. Storming a building is NOT easy because there is more than one room. In the jungle, most houses are built with one or two rooms as village houses. However, in real urban environs you have to take into account the layout, the speed which is can be accomplished, the limited weapons due to size, the size of the door, the number of rooms, your team's headcount - the list goes on and on.

I am not sharing because you wouldn't get it anyway as they are practical applications, plus that I am limited by something called the OSA.

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The dude who discovered the electron. So basically your point is that TK's old fashioned? How was that not derisive on your part?
Wrong. Read a little more. His history, his derivation of idea, etc.

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*raises eyebrow*

... yeah, it's so much more meaningful and nuanced when you do it in real life.
Of course. Because you risk your life dissing others off, forces you to read body language, tones and not skim read what others say.

Quote:
There is a point that one must take into account, in that one cannot let this consume onself...
That is bull. Do it good, or don't do it at all.
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Old 2011-05-14, 15:22   Link #100
Icy.Tear
二人は独自の世界を展開
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
God, that is so tl;dr worthy, but I read it anyway.

I have now found motivation to start translating again, because that is most certainly a better use of time than this.

Unless of course, you happen to be creating a character through the first letter of all your sentences?

Ytitnbai... I guess not.
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