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Old 2011-05-14, 15:38   Link #101
Keroko
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Nah, this is just character creation through discussion. Most of the times it's just pointing out small flaws in a profile so people can fix them, it generally helps improve the character overall. Sometimes people can get a bit defensive though, and it quickly turns into a battle of semantics.

Still, most of this is just Saintess talking about something completely different than Goose, which leads to disagreements over misunderstandings. Saintess keeps talking about things from a military perspective, while Goose does so (or tries to) from a police perspective.

Speaking of which, I do agree with Goose here. Many of the military comparisons we make is inevitably flawed because the butei is not a military. They're law enforcement. Police. Talking about how bayonets are better for killing your enemy and that the army uses them is pretty much futile when the characters we are making are police officers forbidden by law to kill.
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Old 2011-05-14, 15:40   Link #102
Icy.Tear
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Except that, in this world, Butei frequently use edged weapons with the knowledge that anybody that an S is approaching can be swung at with a lethal weapon and come out of it alive.

Perhaps not in the lower ranks, but even from the anime, it is apparent that there is no hesitation involved with using edged weapons.
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Old 2011-05-14, 17:48   Link #103
Keroko
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Yeah, but like I said, they don't kill, so going at it from a 'what is the most efficient way of killing someone' is sort of a wrong angle.
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Old 2011-05-14, 18:31   Link #104
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Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
you only need small amount of Irokane to use an ability. Since it's really rare element.

It often use as a jewel on an accessory or rarely on a bullet.
0.001% Gin-irokane then? The shield diameter is about half an arms length.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempy View Post
I just wanna remind folks that for all the fancy guns, blades, funky magical powers, etc, Butei are not supposed to kill, as demanded by Butei Law 9.
Oh I have that in my mind. I make sure all my characters are Misaka Mikotos, ie if they tried they'd definitely can kill someone, but don't on principle.

Except this Dexter-like Butei I thought of. Bashir is overtly a polished, good-natured Ambulance specializing in forensics and criminal psychology. In his other appearances, he helps Isara with cases that are beyond her. But given the chance, this no-ability-user stalks then kills off criminals who he researched to have been guilty but set free by the system. To the tune of "Rogues Do It From Behind."

Inspired by Jack the Ripper discussion. Feel free to shoot it down.

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Originally Posted by YoakeNoHikari View Post
God, that is so tl;dr worthy, but I read it anyway.

I have now found motivation to start translating again, because that is most certainly a better use of time than this.

Unless of course, you happen to be creating a character through the first letter of all your sentences?

Ytitnbai... I guess not.
Periodically there will be arguments like this. I had a lot like this in the past with Goose, eventually we agreed to ignore each other so that we don't destroy the thread in the process.

Don't go! I need someone to vet my canonicity...!!!





EDIT: Trying again -->

Kobayashi G. Isara
“Valkyrie”
Affiliation: Butei - B. SSR - 14. Medica.
Voice: Saori Hayama

This cheerful, idealistic and naive medic is wholly into her job, making daily rounds around the class and the school, listening to complaints and worries alike. Not that chestnut-haired “hippie” is out of touch with the world; Isara is conscious of the distrust against superhuman Butei, but she wears the badge proudly, opting to let her work tell them otherwise. Her dress always includes a red scarf that is a heirloom from her grandmother. Isara also loves baking, and often makes extra for giving out. Many boys claim that her muffins have special properties, and with each batch comes even wilder claims, from increasing one’s luck at the lottery to becoming a super Butei for three minutes. Isara’s real ability instead enables her to release the latent power within enriched irokane directly and utilize it. However, irokane is much too rare to be used in this manner, so Nemo created a special alloy of 0.001% irokane and 99.999% ‘secret herbs and spices’. He then cast it into an arm-sized shield that Isara carries this shield of enriched irokane wherever she goes. At minimum output, the energy reinforces Kobayashi’s body, improves her strength and she can levitate by vector-thrusting. Her hair turns the same sky-blue color as her power. She can regenerate her wounds at a higher output, and apply that to her allies, allowing them to heal quicker. At this level, she can project a forcefield around herself, and include her allies at maximum output. However, this burns through the spirit energy reserves within 15 minutes. She can also empower the disc and use it as a blunt weapon. Or else, she throws the disc, making it arc around her opponents like a boomerang. But with her strong power in defense, Isara seldom attacks. Kobayashi is content to be the tank that makes sure her team returns home at the end of a quest.
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Last edited by MeisterBabylon; 2011-05-14 at 18:48.
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Old 2011-05-14, 19:21   Link #105
tsunade666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeisterBabylon View Post
0.001% Gin-irokane then? The shield diameter is about half an arms length.
You should also consider the color of irokane. The color of irokane gives hints on probably element. Give consideration to element and grade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by YoakeNoHikari View Post
Supernatural System Spoilers"

Expanding more:

超能力('ability') is broken up into around 70~80 attributes. Each ability user has a grade from G1-G25, with G25 being the strongest. Ability is free to be used as long as you have enough spiritual energy. The higher grade you are, the more quickly you consume your spiritual energy, which is tied to your stamina.
You can copy the ability of an opponent given that you know how it works but knowing it doesn't give you high chance to copy it. You need to be an awesome guy (probably smart and really good, more like a monster and not human at all in skills)to even manage to copy it.

Though even if you copy the ability it still fall in the grade or G of your power. The higher the grade the stronger the spell or ability.
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Old 2011-05-14, 20:24   Link #106
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Originally Posted by FlameSparkZ View Post
Spoiler for HVS:
Now with 100% more over-powered-ness.
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Old 2011-05-14, 21:49   Link #107
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
I am certainly not writing! I am adding my characters for other people to use, just like in IS.

Technical designs though, are a different issue. I prefer to draw and design.
*shrugs* I think we're approaching this from a different paradigm yet again: Outer Cadians who've come here approach this as "Create a charecter, write stories with them, share out to other interested writers ala Marvel shared universe."

The thing is, if you want others to use your characters, you have to write them first and "sell" them, more or less - there's a reason Outer Cadia (alright fine just me) ships Hayaurion.

Also, if I may, if your intent is to create characters for other authors to use, and you do not intend to use these characters, then your current actions are a tad nonsensical, as once you release your character to others you have no control over him and her. As an example, Mara Jade. Timothy Zahn has a pretty good handle on her because he created her, but once that's done she belongs to Lucasfilm and so people can do things like kill Mara off.

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No wonder the ANZAC SASR were grumbling about them ditching their backpacks and running for cover instead of carrying them along.

By right, they are supposed to carry the packs along because they hold surplus ammunition, though not filled into magazines, they are clipped together.

American doctrine seems to be shoot-first talk-later. Not very long term.
Differences in doctrine, I guess. *shrug* That's what most of these disagreements seem to be boiling down to. All I can say is that's how they do it. Whether it's right or wrong...

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I got mine from experience working with RL troopers in the army. Maybe different combat doctrine?
Most likely. Different organisations would have different doctrine.

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Erm no, paperwork for dead suspects are easier unless there is a court, NOK or public enquiry. It is only the "death-by-what" report and the death certificate, the difficult thing is that more people have to countersign.
And what makes you so certain none of those would happen? Remember Butei Law Section 9. No killing. Any deaths that result would invariably have an inquiry of some sort, even if it's only by Internal Affairs.

Quote:
The MP7 is much bulkier and almost three times the weight of the 5-7. The gun concepts are totally different - I want a small but well-rounded gun that can be easily handled - though cocking the weapon might be an issue.

I don't want the P90 because it is an ugly gun.
Again, like I said, personal choice, et all, etc etc. Write it and sell it to the readers.

It's like how Sephiroth is one of the biggest Mary Sues ever but most people give him a pass due to being Sephiroth, as a result of the experiences in the game.

Quote:
Remember that the Iranian Embassy is pretty roomy even along the corridors, otherwise they wouldn't have blasted the window apart.

Besides, the MP5 is quite hard to grab because the other hand already takes up the entire of the handguard. The trooper could easily ventilate the nut playing hide-and-seek round the corner because he had nothing to grab. However, if he is holding a rifle, the terrorist could have grabbed the muzzle.

Also, SWAT teams are not limited by the amount of ground they have to cover, the limitations of manpower size, or the standard issue arms soldiers tend to be given. SWAT teams don't have to make do, soldiers do because of a difference in geographical intel.
Thank you, you've made my point for me. Butei is not an army, it is at most at the higher ranks a contract policing / SWAT provider. Butei means Busou Tantei - Armed Detective. There's alll the fun shooty stuff but at the end of the day Butei are cops and that's the paradigm we work from.

Quote:
It is real life combat doctrine. It is recommended to fix the bayonet because of a whole list of issues like weapons issued, room conditions, no intel - tell you what, why don't you sign for the army and learn how troopers really fight in urban environments instead of quoting off stuff from combat mags? It gets kind of difficult to explain things to people when they never got a punch in their face from round a corner, or how some peekaboos from the same place can mistake the bayonet for the muzzle then cut their hands silly.
There's no need to be nasty just because I was rejected... also I don't read combat mags, but blogs by other soldiers sharing their experiences. And that bit on SQT is from The Finishing School (2005) by Dick Couch, who was allowed access to the SQT process from start to finish.

*shrug* So the Americans don't favor bayonets in room clearing but the Singaporeans do. Different choices by different organisations.

And again, for god's sake, we're trying to apprehend the suspects, not kill them. Section 9, Section 9. How many SWAT teams with M4A1s do you ever see with bayonets anyway? NYPD doesn't use them.

Quote:
The reason why most serial killers come quietly is because they treat they know they totally suck in fighting in an all-out environment. There is this guy who killed 4 cops last year in a cafe, then was shot by a cop trying to apprehend him because he tried to draw a carbine.
*sighs* As A General Rule. As A General Rule. There are always exceptions to the General Rule.

Quote:
I think you are the one who is confused. Storming a building is NOT easy because there is more than one room. In the jungle, most houses are built with one or two rooms as village houses. However, in real urban environs you have to take into account the layout, the speed which is can be accomplished, the limited weapons due to size, the size of the door, the number of rooms, your team's headcount - the list goes on and on.

I am not sharing because you wouldn't get it anyway as they are practical applications, plus that I am limited by something called the OSA.
I never said it was easy - where did you get that from? What I'm saying is that from demonstrations by various units that get picked up and reported by local defense mags, the forces like demoing combined jungle and beach head insertions. Local mags have also covered several urban demonstrations, which seem to be as my earlier mention. (Though there was something I saw once - pickup truck with mounted ladder for 2nd floor window insertions...)

At no time did I say it was easy, rather that this is what our forces apparently do.

Quote:
Of course. Because you risk your life dissing others off, forces you to read body language, tones and not skim read what others say.
If this was a face to face conversation, what I'd do is I'd raise my eyebrow with a questioning look, which hopefully you would then interpret as a signal to explain further. At the same time hopefully said eyebrow would also convey a sense of skepticism from me, with the expectation that you would attempt to convince me...

The internets. Not as useful a communication medium as real life.


Quote:
That is bull. Do it good, or don't do it at all.
Look at the time stamps. We blew away how many hours on this? Everything in moderation. All of the supposedly unhealthy foods are alright when taken in moderation.

So yes, by all means strive towards perfection, but don't let it consume you.

Now, I think we ought to give it a rest and move on to more important questions:

Thoughts on said short snippet that I've put up as an example of the point and paradigms i attempt to convey? And again I'll say this - something that all Outer Cadians who've migrated here know - nobody will use your characters if you don't sell them, and the best way to sell them is to write.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Nah, this is just character creation through discussion. Most of the times it's just pointing out small flaws in a profile so people can fix them, it generally helps improve the character overall. Sometimes people can get a bit defensive though, and it quickly turns into a battle of semantics.

Still, most of this is just Saintess talking about something completely different than Goose, which leads to disagreements over misunderstandings. Saintess keeps talking about things from a military perspective, while Goose does so (or tries to) from a police perspective.

Speaking of which, I do agree with Goose here. Many of the military comparisons we make is inevitably flawed because the butei is not a military. They're law enforcement. Police. Talking about how bayonets are better for killing your enemy and that the army uses them is pretty much futile when the characters we are making are police officers forbidden by law to kill.
Thank you. You've summed up my entire perspective.

Remember, people. Police Quest. Or SWAT 4 for the more actiony.

As movies, Hot Fuzz, not Black Hawk Down. (Due to this anime having certain ties to the genre of buddy cop movies. Plus, that was an awesome shootout that ended in reams of paperwork.)
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Last edited by Wild Goose; 2011-05-14 at 23:23. Reason: Adding a bit more about using characters.
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Old 2011-05-14, 23:30   Link #108
CrowKenobi
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Okay, how about when critiquing anyone's idea, let's leave the personal attacks out of it. If you can't give an honest critique without being rude, then don't bother.

Also, how about placing some of this TL;DR stuff under spoiler tags to keep things neat?
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Old 2011-05-14, 23:31   Link #109
SaintessHeart
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Thank you. You've summed up my entire perspective.
Bloody hell you could have just said that - I was wondering where you are driving at with such high-risk tactics.
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Old 2011-05-14, 23:43   Link #110
Cosmic Eagle
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post



I just want to chime in that in much of my reading of books and millblogs a common theme in house clearing is that fixed bayonets is rarely used as it increases the length of the rifle, and makes it harder to handle in close quarters.

I'll have to reaquire that book to quote properly, but author Dick Couch wrote on SEAL Qualification Training in one of his books, The Finishing School - knife combat was discussed, as also what to do when the rifle is grabbed. In very few cases were SEALs encouraged to knife fight the opponent; rather as the opponent grabs the rifle, SEALs were taught to use rifle and opponent's momentum against him to club him to the ground. And then shoot.


I just want to say this.....in my experience, fixing bayonets TO THE GUN is not as common as compared to have in tied to the side of your webbing ready to draw at a moment's notice. Is how I use it as well....a blade from the gun does have drawbacks...the increased length makes it harder to wield.

And if someone makes a grab for a rifle, using momentum is simplest, least cumbersome way of course. But I think most people would reflexively strike the guy's face/ neck then put some rounds into him when he lets go...the combat knife or sidearm acts as insurance here.
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Old 2011-05-14, 23:47   Link #111
SaintessHeart
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
I just want to say this.....in my experience, fixing bayonets TO THE GUN is not as common as compared to have in tied to the side of your webbing ready to draw at a moment's notice. Is how I use it as well....a blade from the gun does have drawbacks...the increased length makes it harder to wield.

And if someone makes a grab for a rifle, using momentum is simplest, least cumbersome way of course. But I think most people would reflexively strike the guy's face/ neck then put some rounds into him when he lets go...the combat knife or sidearm acts as insurance here.
Eh the bayonet attachment is actually to prevent people from grabbing the gun you know. That is why most NSmen bitch about the SAR-21 not having a mount.
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Old 2011-05-14, 23:47   Link #112
Cosmic Eagle
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You can copy the ability of an opponent given that you know how it works but knowing it doesn't give you high chance to copy it. You need to be an awesome guy (probably smart and really good, more like a monster and not human at all in skills)to even manage to copy it.

Though even if you copy the ability it still fall in the grade or G of your power. The higher the grade the stronger the spell or ability.
Sherlock Holmes is human as far as I can tell...Granted the Irokane may be aiding him somehow...
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Old 2011-05-14, 23:51   Link #113
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Eh the bayonet attachment is actually to prevent people from grabbing the gun you know. That is why most NSmen bitch about the SAR-21 not having a mount.
If someone grabs your gun from the side, the mount isn't going to make much difference. If he is suicidal enough to make a frontal grab...just open fire.....

Besides....swinging and stabbing with a pathetically short and heavy rifle like the SAR vs just using your bare hands to wield it...I'd take the latter please.

Now if it were the M-16 I'd have a spear and then a real difference will be made. Never in urban conditions though.


And if someone is near enough to grab a freaking SAR...Yeah better to just draw a pistol if you have one or a knife...
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Old 2011-05-14, 23:51   Link #114
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Well well... Smoking bodies already.

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You should also consider the color of irokane. The color of irokane gives hints on probably element. Give consideration to element and grade.
It's stated in her affiliation. Butei rank B, SSR grade 14 (balance of power and stamina).

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Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
You can copy the ability of an opponent given that you know how it works but knowing it doesn't give you high chance to copy it. You need to be an awesome guy (probably smart and really good, more like a monster and not human at all in skills)to even manage to copy it.

Though even if you copy the ability it still fall in the grade or G of your power. The higher the grade the stronger the spell or ability.
Not copying an ability. Isara uses her ability to directly access the raw energy found in Gin-irokane (Silver Colored Metal) and apply it in simple telekinetic ways, like levitation, barrier projection and throwing. The one she uses and recharges was designed to function like that, and hence holds no choubutei ability inside. Its just a spirit energy battery.
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Old 2011-05-14, 23:54   Link #115
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Yeah, but like I said, they don't kill, so going at it from a 'what is the most efficient way of killing someone' is sort of a wrong angle.
Depends really....Reki may be a Butei assassin and it is acknowledged that reality is not as ideal as the Laws try to make it.
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Old 2011-05-15, 00:06   Link #116
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If someone grabs your gun from the side, the mount isn't going to make much difference. If he is suicidal enough to make a frontal grab...just open fire.....
What I mean is that you grab the muzzle. When a person rounds a corner, the gun will no be directly pointing at the blind spot, giving ample time for the person to grab the muzzle and throw a punch. The bayonet prevents the grabbing.

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Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
And if someone is near enough to grab a freaking SAR...Yeah better to just draw a pistol if you have one or a knife...
Kick the balls.
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Old 2011-05-15, 00:09   Link #117
Cosmic Eagle
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What I mean is that you grab the muzzle. When a person rounds a corner, the gun will no be directly pointing at the blind spot, giving ample time for the person to grab the muzzle and throw a punch. The bayonet prevents the grabbing.
And with your finger on the trigger a reflexive shot will put the guy down...I mean, I sure as hell will never put my weapon to safe or my finger leave the trigger in a kill-zone...

Yeah kick the balls...too bad long pants and webbing don't exactly make kicking easy...
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Old 2011-05-15, 00:23   Link #118
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What the hell do we have a platoon of NSF in here or something?

If someone grabbed the SAR I'd still fire and burn his hands. The flash should also destabilize him for a shoulder tackle + auto in the face.

We all have Hysteria Variant Syndrome for such moments...
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Old 2011-05-15, 00:28   Link #119
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Originally Posted by CrowKenobi View Post
Okay, how about when critiquing anyone's idea, let's leave the personal attacks out of it. If you can't give an honest critique without being rude, then don't bother.

Also, how about placing some of this TL;DR stuff under spoiler tags to keep things neat?
You've never been to Outer Cadia, I take it. *laughs ruefully* This is nothing compared to some of the Backlog Breakers we used to do.

Still, duly noted.

Spoiler for Replies to SaintessHeart:


Now, with regards to the usage of characters, since this seems to have been missed out, I would like to reiterate: if your intent with your OCs is to release them to other authors to use, then all of this sticking to your guns is nonsensical, as once you release an OC to another author the other author has the power over your OC. Thus all this drawings of lines in the sand is pointless.

Again, as I have said earlier, if one wants one's OCs to be used by other authors, one must sell the character to the other authors. The best way to do this is by writing.

To give an example, one of the most popular charecters in Star Wars Expanded Universe is a redhead named Mara Jade, created by Timothy Zahn in Heir to the Empire. Zahn was so good in selling his characters that he essentially created SW EU. He was so good at setting up the chemistry with Mara and Luke Skywalker that for many fans she was the only romantic option for him. And then it was decided to kill off Mara in the recent NJO books - Zahn wasn't pleased about that, but he recognised that Mara Jade was like any other character created by any writer in the shared Star Wars EU - any author can use another author's characters and the original creator has no say.

tl;dr - you want people to use the Unamichi siblings, sell them to other authors by writing and be prepared to lose creative control. Give and take is needed, and right now there's not much give on your part, SaintessHeart.

Remember, folks: Police Quest, not Modern Warfare.

...though in movie terms it's a lot closer to Hot Fuzz than Black Hawk Down.
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Old 2011-05-15, 00:35   Link #120
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A much-toned-down version of...



...for me.
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