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Old 2004-11-06, 16:42   Link #21
Cort
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiko
Yup, but I'm sure it takes more than one small human to drag that soul out don't you think? That was the point I was trying to make anyway.
Far as I can tell the 4th wouldn't be getting any extra power by splitting himself into extra copies. I'm sure the 3rd only did it because he had to hit 3 targets at once with the move since obviously he couldn't do it one at a time with his one body, which is also probably a bit harder than concentrating on one single target, which could also be a reason why he didn't have enough power left to rip out Oro...that and the sword sticking through him anyway
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Old 2004-11-06, 18:43   Link #22
Ero-Senn1n
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I watched once again the 1st episode of the anime, the beginning where the 4th is standing on Gamabunta facing the Kyuubi. The 4th definitely used Shinigami on a much higher level than the 3rd could do it at his age and after the kage bunshin. After the 4th compeleted some hand seals there was some huge light effect and than we see the seal on Naruto. It seems he used the Death God in a compeletely different way.
The other thing about this jutsu: when somebody uses it it's NOT him who kills but the Death God is killing. No man can kill the Kyuubi, only a death god can. After it is summoned you have to connect it somehow with the target, the 3rd simply dragged the target with his hands. While the 4th used it in a really special way, the mangaka has to explain it later.
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Old 2004-11-06, 18:46   Link #23
Mezu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n
I watched once again the 1st episode of the anime, the beginning where the 4th is standing on Gamabunta facing the Kyuubi. The 4th definitely used Shinigami on a much higher level than the 3rd could do it at his age and after the kage bunshin. After the 4th compeleted some hand seals there was some huge light effect and than we see the seal on Naruto. It seems he used the Death God in a compeletely different way.
The other thing about this jutsu: when somebody uses it it's NOT him who kills but the Death God is killing. No man can kill the Kyuubi, only a death god can. After it is summoned you have to connect it somehow with the target, the 3rd simply dragged the target with his hands. While the 4th used it in a really special way, the mangaka has to explain it later.
If u read the manga, there is no such scene . The anime just added that in to look cool. I thought about that in the begining and it would be cool if that was yondaimes version of that technqiue.
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Old 2004-11-06, 18:59   Link #24
Ero-Senn1n
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mezu
If u read the manga, there is no such scene . The anime just added that in to look cool. I thought about that in the begining and it would be cool if that was yondaimes version of that technqiue.
But he used it in a really special way. Imagine the 4th grabbing the Kyuubi with his hands and than says "fuujin!" nonsense. And the seal was on the dead body of the 3rd, the same as on Naruto. So I thing he used it from the distance with some special technique, and the light could be a side effect. The question is if the anime squad asked Kishimoto or they came up with this on their own.

I think the summoning of the Death God is like summoning a Boss, it is a move on its own, and how you use it afterwards (before he takes your soul!) is the job of the summoner. The 4th must have used some other special jutsu to target the Kyuubi. The 3rd was talking for minutes to Orochimaru before the DeathGod took his soul, so the DeathGod gives time to the user to do what he can
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Old 2004-11-06, 20:04   Link #25
hiko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cort
Far as I can tell the 4th wouldn't be getting any extra power by splitting himself into extra copies. I'm sure the 3rd only did it because he had to hit 3 targets at once with the move since obviously he couldn't do it one at a time with his one body, which is also probably a bit harder than concentrating on one single target, which could also be a reason why he didn't have enough power left to rip out Oro...that and the sword sticking through him anyway
Sigh I almost wish I'd never made this comment now. My point wasn't about physical power either, I was merely stipulating that Kyuubi is so large that the 4th could well have needed a shitload of clones just to pull over a large enough area of the demon's body to get the soul out.

Quote:
If u read the manga, there is no such scene . The anime just added that in to look cool. I thought about that in the begining and it would be cool if that was yondaimes version of that technqiue.
Technically the scene isn't in the Manga but if you look at page 2 of the scan at the bottom is a little drawing of a man standing on top of a toad performing the sealing Jutsu, so it looks like that really is Yondaime's technique.
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Old 2004-11-07, 16:35   Link #26
Lexander
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Why would anyone want to do that with a kamikaze type technique? Plus we've seen what happens to Naruto's thousand clones when he's up against a serious ninja...
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Old 2004-11-07, 17:08   Link #27
hiko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lexander
Why would anyone want to do that with a kamikaze type technique? Plus we've seen what happens to Naruto's thousand clones when he's up against a serious ninja...
Kyuubi is more than a little bit large. I'd imagine pulling his soul out is just as complex as, say the 3rd pulling shodaime, nidaime and Oro's souls out. He went for Kage Bunshin to handle that task so i'm speculating Yondaime could have used Kage Bunshin in the same way. Kage bunshins act independantly and can be used to drag things. How strong they are shouldn't be an issue, how easily they're destroyed might be but I doubt it. What matters most is their ability to pull at things independently from different angles over a large surface area.

The only reason i'm assuming Yondaime used Kage Bunshin when he sealed Kyuubi is because i'm assuming Naruto learnt Kage Bunshin from the instructions for this forbidden seal jutsu. On the other hand, there could easily have been other seals in there that required Kage Bunshin.

Considering the arguments against this theory then I'm half convinced it's an unlikely scenario now, although I still think Kage Bunshin was used somewhere in the sealing process - just maybe not to pull Kyuubi out.

Last edited by hiko; 2004-11-07 at 17:18.
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Old 2004-11-07, 19:24   Link #28
Bflip
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiko
Kyuubi is more than a little bit large. I'd imagine pulling his soul out is just as complex as, say the 3rd pulling shodaime, nidaime and Oro's souls out. He went for Kage Bunshin to handle that task so i'm speculating Yondaime could have used Kage Bunshin in the same way. Kage bunshins act independantly and can be used to drag things. How strong they are shouldn't be an issue, how easily they're destroyed might be but I doubt it. What matters most is their ability to pull at things independently from different angles over a large surface area.

The only reason i'm assuming Yondaime used Kage Bunshin when he sealed Kyuubi is because i'm assuming Naruto learnt Kage Bunshin from the instructions for this forbidden seal jutsu. On the other hand, there could easily have been other seals in there that required Kage Bunshin.

Considering the arguments against this theory then I'm half convinced it's an unlikely scenario now, although I still think Kage Bunshin was used somewhere in the sealing process - just maybe not to pull Kyuubi out.
Ummm.. explain you need to cover more area to get their soul. Kage bunshins wouln't really help pull a soul out just because of a "large surface area". Why does size matter when pulling out objects?
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Old 2004-11-07, 20:36   Link #29
hiko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bflip
Ummm.. explain you need to cover more area to get their soul. Kage bunshins wouln't really help pull a soul out just because of a "large surface area". Why does size matter when pulling out objects?
I was thinking that Kyuubi's not gonna just stand there and let someone grab him, he'd be flailing about/attacking whatever so just summon up a shitload of kage bunshin, have them all dive on him en masse and up the chance of one or a few actually managing to get a hold of the sod.
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