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Old 2011-05-17, 20:53   Link #10421
NightGale
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Since the battle between Touma and Fiamma, i canīt help but think although iīm not sure who is Touma, i believe that at the very least both Michael and Lucifer are inside his body, i mean:
-Fiamma felt two different overwhelming powers(the second being greater than the first one), when he cut off Toumaīs arm, and precisely at the moment he felt the second one appear the power of IB left the severed arm.
-The hidden meaning of sitting to the right is to be equal and The Son of God, Lucifer and Michael have all took a seat the right of God so:
God = Son of God = Michael = Lucifer; that should be the case, but Michael defeated Lucifer so:
Michael > Lucifer = Son of God = God

If you put those together then you will see that Touma could be the incarnation of Michael or at the very least a vessel containing him. The IB could be the power that God entrusted Michael to surpass him and be capable of defeating Lucifer, the "power to rule/negate over Godīs creation" or maybe you could even call it "administrative rights", that itīs something that will certainly put him on the same level of God and under proper circumstances even over him.

Now the fact that the current incarnation of IB is "weak", could be because negating the power of Lucifer inside Touma is taking quite a bit of "output", something like 90-99% of itīs true power, so IB can only use that 1-10% to negate "miracles" and that may be why it isnīt totally almighty (though quite hax regardless...).

Well that wall of text is my theory, couldnīt help but want to discuss it,xD.

PS: Admittedly it starts from a gut feeling and little by little iīm looking for facts that prove it or deny it, i still canīt quite factor the Aeons in these unless we believe that Monotheistic and Polytheistic Gods had a holy war or something...
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Old 2011-05-17, 20:54   Link #10422
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Holy shit your late
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Old 2011-05-17, 21:01   Link #10423
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Originally Posted by I_am_Kami View Post
Holy shit your late
me? at what? Toaru theorycrafting? nah, youīre never late for that as long as there are plot holes we fans will fill them with a thousand and two theories,xD.

Edit: Call it plothole may not be appropriate but canīt quite think of a better word in the moment... maybe "mysteries"?
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Old 2011-05-17, 21:03   Link #10424
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NightGale View Post
Since the battle between Touma and Fiamma, i canīt help but think although iīm not sure who is Touma, i believe that at the very least both Michael and Lucifer are inside his body, i mean:
-Fiamma felt two different overwhelming powers(the second being greater than the first one), when he cut off Toumaīs arm, and precisely at the moment he felt the second one appear the power of IB left the severed arm.
-The hidden meaning of sitting to the right is to be equal and The Son of God, Lucifer and Michael have all took a seat the right of God so:
God = Son of God = Michael = Lucifer; that should be the case, but Michael defeated Lucifer so:
Michael > Lucifer = Son of God = God

If you put those together then you will see that Touma could be the incarnation of Michael or at the very least a vessel containing him. The IB could be the power that God entrusted Michael to surpass him and be capable of defeating Lucifer, the "power to rule/negate over Godīs creation" or maybe you could even call it "administrative rights", that itīs something that will certainly put him on the same level of God and under proper circumstances even over him.

Now the fact that the current incarnation of IB is "weak", could be because negating the power of Lucifer inside Touma is taking quite a bit of "output", something like 90-99% of itīs true power, so IB can only use that 1-10% to negate "miracles" and that may be why it isnīt totally almighty (though quite hax regardless...).
The only problem is that Fiamma has Michael's power. Granted, the Holy Right doesn't have as much power as the original used by Michael, but in Vol. 16 Fiamma specifically stated he had the same power as that which defeated Lucifer, and at the end of Vol. 22 he told Aleister he had the same power as the Son of God.
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Old 2011-05-17, 21:15   Link #10425
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Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou View Post
The only problem is that Fiamma has Michael's power. Granted, the Holy Right doesn't have as much power as the original used by Michael, but in Vol. 16 Fiamma specifically stated he had the same power as that which defeated Lucifer, and at the end of Vol. 22 he told Aleister he had the same power as the Son of God.
Well i have always though of that one as being a one-sided assumption, i mean when Curtana Original was introduced, it was said that it was capable of granting itīs wielder the power of the Leader of the angel army (Michael), and if iīm right Fiamma himself said it was a cheap imitation(i seem to remember that happening, though not the exact words...), Fiamma claimed his power to be equal to Michael and when he changed his "target", it reached the level of the Son of God; but, has he ever seen the power of The Son of God? have they ever seen the extent of the power of Lucifer? God?
Michael was said to be capable of defeating Lucifer, who once took a seat right to God, but even that is only at the level of an assumption, nothing to refute it nor confirm it. I said it, i have been trying to think it through,xD.

Edit: Forgot to add one thing, the manifestation of Fiammaīs power never looked very "angelical" and as seen in the extra art of Gabriel, they have white wings, Halos and at the very least they look like "angels"; on the other hand, Fiammaīs Third Arm looked very Demonical, the same with indexīs wings being kind of "fallen angel-like", for all we know Fiamma and the RCC may have mistaken the power of Lucifer and Michael since they have never seen the real deal.
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Old 2011-05-17, 21:23   Link #10426
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NightGale View Post
Michael was said to be capable of defeating Lucifer, who once took a seat right to God, but even that is only at the level of an assumption, nothing to refute it nor confirm it. I said it, i have been trying to think it through,xD.
Fiamma has the power of the Right Hand. Every feat said to have been performed by the Right hand, Fiamma is capable of. If that weren't true, the Holy Right wouldn't work.
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Old 2011-05-17, 21:27   Link #10427
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To add Aleister said it himself that IB and blah blah is not relative to Christianity
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Old 2011-05-17, 21:53   Link #10428
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Curtana=Original is weaker than Holy Right base on the simple fact that it's limited to the United Kingdoms, and it's one ability is to sever dimensions, which is a pretty shounenish power relative to the other types of power in this series.

In addition, Curtana=Original is a manmade weapon use to replicate the power of Michael, while Holy Right is a power given to Fiamma since birth.

I'm inclined to believe at least God's Right Seat members have intimate knowledge about the Angels, otherwise how else would they be able to come up with all those Angel class spells that not even Index had heard of? How they got those knowledge though is a mystery, but it's not too far fetch for Fiamma to know exactly what he's talking about. But as Aleister Crowley showed him, there's more to this Universe than God and his Angels.

Oh, and I totally agree there should be a holy war by Angels vs Pagan Deities in the past, but the Aeons does not refer to Polytheism But now the age of Monotheism is over and we ascend into Atheism.
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Old 2011-05-17, 22:01   Link #10429
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Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou View Post
Fiamma has the power of the Right Hand. Every feat said to have been performed by the Right hand, Fiamma is capable of. If that weren't true, the Holy Right wouldn't work.
I may be using a bit of FSN-verse to justify this one but it appears that to some level this one applies to Toaru too, "...the power of a hero is equal to the power of his legend and the power of his legend equal to the number of itīs believers and their faith on it..."
Constantine The Great (if you read vol 14, you probably know where iīm going with these one but...), unified the Christian Bible, and in that process many of those "Right-Handed feats" where lost in history(in fact is said that even this Bible was lost and the few chapter that could be recovered are what we call "Christian Bible" in this day and age), so it wouldn'tīt be strange that:
1. The Holy Right (HR) and the Imagine Breaker (IB) are indeed powerful and "functional", but their roles are a bit deformed, the HR has the power to "match the power required to defeat any enemy it deems as such" in order to do what?; letīs not talk about the IB, but the HR mission to "save the world", was something that the CRR atributed it and even Fiamma staged this great pool of drama that was WW3 to justify its need, since he himself wasnīt sure in his heart, that the world needed to be "saved"...
2. The HR and IB, may have even more powers that the ones they show, is just that the "legends" that "fuel" those powers are less known that in the time of Genesis, therefore those power have been either become useless or forgotten completely even if they are there.
3. Due to the above, both HR and IB are downgraded versions and a far-cry of the originals, you canīt even be sure what they are trying to imitate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by I_am_Kami View Post
To add Aleister said it himself that IB and blah blah is not relative to Christianity
Many religions have similar "deity infrastructure", for example both the Christian and Islamic Gods have Messiahs, saviors send with a holy duty and that have taken human form, they all have a figure that rules over their own army and enemies to defeat and vanish. Aleister said that IB had nothing to do with Christianity, but he never explicitly said he wasnīt Michael, meaning he could be The one that would be the equal of Michael on another system(religion or not). Even if not the Leader of the Army of whatever god=system, a vessel or a prison and warden.
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Old 2011-05-17, 22:02   Link #10430
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NightGale View Post
I may be using a bit of FSN-verse to justify this one but it appears that to some level this one applies to Toaru too, "...the power of a hero is equal to the power of his legend and the power of his legend equal to the number of itīs believers and their faith on it..."
That is too FSN-verse.

Quote:
Constantine The Great (if you read vol 14, you probably know where iīm going with these one but...), unified the Christian Bible, and in that process many of those "Right-Handed feats" where lost in history(in fact is said that even this Bible was lost and the few chapter that could be recovered are what we call "Christian Bible" in this day and age), so it wouldn'tīt be strange that:
1. The Holy Right (HR) and the Imagine Breaker (IB) are indeed powerful and "functional", but their roles are a bit deformed, the HR has the power to "match the power required to defeat any enemy it deems as such" in order to do what?; letīs not talk about the IB, but the HR mission to "save the world", was something that the CRR atributed it and even Fiamma staged this great pool of drama that was WW3 to justify its need, since he himself wasnīt sure in his heart, that the world needed to be "saved"...
2. The HR and IB, may have even more powers that the ones they show, is just that the "legends" that "fuel" those powers are less known that in the time of Genesis, therefore those power have been either become useless or forgotten completely even if they are there.
3. Due to the above, both HR and IB are downgraded versions and a far-cry of the originals, you canīt even be sure what they are trying to imitate.
1. HR and IB are also defined as "The Right Hand That Creates All Miracles" and "The Right Hand That Destroys All Miracles", respectively.

2. Both of them, ironically, have been stated to be infantile. HR can't be used at full power baring special circumstance, and IB hasn't spread to Touma's entire body yet. For HR, at least, it shouldn't matter whether they've been lost to human history. HR is a divine power, so it's probably still capable of such feats. Fiamma himself either doesn't know about them or doesn't know how to unlock them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Oh, and I totally agree there should be a holy war by Angels vs Pagan Deities in the past, but the Aeons does not refer to Polytheism
Agreed.

Quote:
But now the age of Monotheism is over and we ascend into Atheism.
It seems to be like this:

Aeon of ? (maybe Ra?) = Age of Polytheism
Aeon of Osiris = Age of Monotheism
Aeon of Horus = Age of Atheism

Maybe the reason the Horus Aeon is so powerful is because it's a "God is Dead" kind of thing, where there are no longer any limits to human potential?
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Old 2011-05-17, 22:23   Link #10431
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At this point we still cannot make any real guesses as to what Imagine Breaker really is, however given what both Terra and Fiamma had to say about it, I'm inclined to believe it's at least partly understood by God's Right Seat, what Aleister Crowley said was that they cannot fully comprehend it, as well as the thing inside of Kamijou with just the knowledge of Monotheism.

Again as I've said, God's Right Seat has intimate understanding of Celestial knowledge of the Angels, as you can tell from all their Angel Class spells, so we can give them credit for knowing what they're talking about. However, in this universe they're living in, God and his Angels aren't the only great power.


P.S - Yet another update on vol 18 chap 7.6 ... Looks like Carissa is pulling a 'Lelouch'... This seems to be a very popular move these days...
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Old 2011-05-17, 22:38   Link #10432
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Curtana=Original is weaker than Holy Right base on the simple fact that it's limited to the United Kingdoms, and it's one ability is to sever dimensions, which is a pretty shounenish power relative to the other types of power in this series.

In addition, Curtana=Original is a manmade weapon use to replicate the power of Michael, while Holy Right is a power given to Fiamma since birth.

I'm inclined to believe at least God's Right Seat members have intimate knowledge about the Angels, otherwise how else would they be able to come up with all those Angel class spells that not even Index had heard of? How they got those knowledge though is a mystery, but it's not too far fetch for Fiamma to know exactly what he's talking about. But as Aleister Crowley showed him, there's more to this Universe than God and his Angels.

Oh, and I totally agree there should be a holy war by Angels vs Pagan Deities in the past, but the Aeons does not refer to Polytheism But now the age of Monotheism is over and we ascend into Atheism.
1. As for Curtana and the HR, wheter manmade or not neither both had the chance to truly reach a stage where they could match the power of the originals and though i canīt say how far they could have gotten even if they had the chance, is a fact that both of them had ways to do so (though Curtanaīs was still in the research fase on how to lift itīs restrictions); in fact, since Fiamma didnīt directly tried to face-off with Curtana Original you could say that even though

2. Thereīs one thing that itīs probably the pillar supporting my thoughs on anything Toaru-verseīs related, everything single thing that we are told are either estimates or assumptions made by humans in different points in time, based on what they could see and understand; but, what we see and what we understand, is not everything, the definition of everything is in fact: "what we see, what we understand plus what we donīt see and donīt understand", the power of IB and HR, itīs roles and "true names" are thing that humans have given them with the little to no "true" knowledge they had at that time, so itīs not definite in fact is most likely wrong. Godīs right seat constructed itīs theories, itīs power and magic, based on the legends of Christianity (i think that no one will argue if i say that legends of Christianity=Christian Bible, since itīs at the very least the starting point in any research they may have done); but, even that was just fragments of fragments with quite a few having been lost and some are even misunderstood as "truths". Proof of what iīm saying is the fact that they still hadnīt complete their research, nor found a way to completely purge the original sin.

3. Well the Aeons(at least the ones relevant to Toaru), have a strong connection with the Egyptian Gods(even if it was only for convenience sake...), and that was one of the most influential Polytheistic cultures, though i may have misunderstood what you meant.

Iīll reply to something that Kuroi_Hadou(sry if i spell it wrong iīm half-sleep here...) said that catched my eye tomorrow, i need sleep...
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Old 2011-05-17, 22:51   Link #10433
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Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou View Post
Aeon of ? (maybe Ra?) = Age of Polytheism
Aeon of Osiris = Age of Monotheism
Aeon of Horus = Age of Atheism
I'm pretty sure the Aeon of Polytheism is that of Isis. The real Aleister Crowley called it that.
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Old 2011-05-17, 22:58   Link #10434
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First and foremost we know there are others god (at least the norse and aztec pantheon)

Aeon of Osiris = fear of god
Aeon of = redemption
Aeon of Horus = free will

I have had this theory for a while, mainly due to accelerator.

And about the claw thing, most angels don't really fit the picture most people have of a angel if you actually investigate.
His power was first due to fear
His angelic power was due to redemption
And I feel theres a last power up which comes from his own free will.
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Old 2011-05-18, 00:54   Link #10435
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About the Michael and Lucifer thing, the 'Right Seat' is merely symbolism IIRC in ToaruVerse. Seen as the equal of the person who you are sitting on the right side of, but not necessarily EXACTLY equal. So even if Michael defeated Lucifer, there could still be a gap between Michael and God.
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Old 2011-05-18, 01:14   Link #10436
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Originally Posted by Flere821 View Post
About the Michael and Lucifer thing, the 'Right Seat' is merely symbolism IIRC in ToaruVerse. Seen as the equal of the person who you are sitting on the right side of, but not necessarily EXACTLY equal. So even if Michael defeated Lucifer, there could still be a gap between Michael and God.
But if that were the case, then why would God allow a being inferior to him (Michael) to sit to his right, rather than an actual equal (Son of God)?
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Old 2011-05-18, 01:49   Link #10437
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You need to remember that "God" is composed of 3 entities, God father, Son, Holy spirit.
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Old 2011-05-18, 01:52   Link #10438
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You need to remember that "God" is composed of 3 entities, God father, Son, Holy spirit.
Depends on your interpretation of the Holy Trinity, really.
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Old 2011-05-18, 03:39   Link #10439
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But if that were the case, then why would God allow a being inferior to him (Michael) to sit to his right, rather than an actual equal (Son of God)?
This is also based on the assumption of the Christianity. That the "right" is a special trait. That their can only be one who seat on the right side of the throne of god.
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Old 2011-05-18, 03:41   Link #10440
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Originally Posted by NightGale View Post
Well i have always though of that one as being a one-sided assumption, i mean when Curtana Original was introduced, it was said that it was capable of granting itīs wielder the power of the Leader of the angel army (Michael), and if iīm right Fiamma himself said it was a cheap imitation(i seem to remember that happening, though not the exact words...), Fiamma claimed his power to be equal to Michael and when he changed his "target", it reached the level of the Son of God; but, has he ever seen the power of The Son of God? have they ever seen the extent of the power of Lucifer? God?
Michael was said to be capable of defeating Lucifer, who once took a seat right to God, but even that is only at the level of an assumption, nothing to refute it nor confirm it. I said it, i have been trying to think it through,xD.

Edit: Forgot to add one thing, the manifestation of Fiammaīs power never looked very "angelical" and as seen in the extra art of Gabriel, they have white wings, Halos and at the very least they look like "angels"; on the other hand, Fiammaīs Third Arm looked very Demonical, the same with indexīs wings being kind of "fallen angel-like", for all we know Fiamma and the RCC may have mistaken the power of Lucifer and Michael since they have never seen the real deal.
What power of Holy Right posses is a completely different matter from whether Fiamma is a proper host to unleash its power.
Also, it was never an assumption on whether Fiamma has enough power to save the world and become the Son of God. Whether Fiamma is aware of the amount of the power he possses is another matter.
Aleister himself has confirmed that Fiamma has the power and methodology in achieving his goal. The only problem is that he applied his power and methods under the Aeon of Osiris that lead to his failure.
The quality of Holy Right's power is indisputable, what we should discuss is whether such power has been applied by the right Aeon.
From Aleister's point of view, interpreting the Right Hand Power with Aeon of Osiris is a mistake in itself, thus making any Christian interpretation incorrect when applying it to Holy Right. And that is Fiamma's only mistake.
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