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Old 2011-05-18, 03:46   Link #10441
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
What power of Holy Right posses is a completely different matter from whether Fiamma is a proper host to unleash its power.
Also, it was never an assumption on whether Fiamma has enough power to save the world and become the Son of God. Whether Fiamma is aware of the amount of the power he possses is another matter.
Aleister himself has confirmed that Fiamma has the power and methodology in achieving his goal. The only problem is that he applied his power and methods under the Aeon of Osiris that lead to his failure.
The quality of Holy Right's power is indisputable, what we should discuss is whether such power has been applied by the right Aeon.
From Aleister's point of view, interpreting the Right Hand Power with Aeon of Osiris is a mistake in itself, thus making any Christian interpretation incorrect when applying it to Holy Right. And that is Fiamma's only mistake.
Now that you brought this up, there's something I've been meaning to ask; how exactly did Fiamma messed up? As far as I could tell he did everything right up to the point he cut off Kamijou Touma's right arm. It was Kamijou Touma (well technically the whole world) that stood against him and defeated him, preventing him from using his power.

Or was it because Fiamma had set the 'negativity of the world' as his enemy, that's why it had failed? And that's what Aleister's meant by the wrong method?
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Old 2011-05-18, 05:19   Link #10442
shmaster
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Aleister did not point out which exact step that Fiamma messed up on.
But we can point out the two differences between Fiamma and Aleister.

First, Fiamma does not comprehend the true essence of the Right Hand, the IB, and the entity inside Touma. Although Fiamma can comprehend them, he failed to do so due to his outdated Aeon.

Second, Fiamma is only trying to refresh or re-tune the world into a clean state without applying his own vision into this reconstruction of world order and still uses Christianity to run the world after the resonctsruction. Fiamma is following the god's blue print but Aleister is trying to replace that blue print with something else.

My own assumption on what Fiamma had messed up base on the above two points:

1. Taking Touma's right hand might not be the right thing to do. Or he didn't use the right hand in a correct manner.
2. Following the god's blue print limited Fiamma's own power output. Aren't you trying to be La Persona superiore a Dio? Then why are you still following the god's rule?

And I think the killer is the second point.
Fiamma didn't think outside of the box. Setting the "negativity of the world" as his enemy is an extension of this short sightedness. He still value his power against this world of god, when he could disregard this world entirely and transcends above it.
So, despite all his effort and achieving god like power, he screwed up because he chose to be a mortal.
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Old 2011-05-18, 06:23   Link #10443
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
but Aleister is trying to replace that blue print with something else.
So basically Aleister is trying to completely change the world by destroying magic and bringing forth something else, perhaps even beyond science?
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Old 2011-05-18, 06:36   Link #10444
Mr.Kyon
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
So basically Aleister is trying to completely change the world by destroying magic and bringing forth something else, perhaps even beyond science?
Basically, he wants the world to shift from the Aeon of Osiris to the Aeon of Horus. This might involve, as discussed, the murder of god himself.
Whether he is to be replaced or not, I'm not sure, but we can assume that Osiris=AbrahamicRule (Monotheism) Horus=Beyond Religion (hence magic).
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Old 2011-05-18, 06:37   Link #10445
zaeraal
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He want to achieve something he could not do with magic. Magic is about borowing power, maximaly you can borrow power from god -> in other words become god. He aims higher than that - to suppras god. The only reason i could though of, is that becoming god will not allow you to alter laws already set by god. Something like conflict of omnipotence : by creating a law you cut off part of your omnipotence and can no longer alter it because the being that set those laws before was more omnipotent that you are now.

Considering the above I personaly think he wants to do somethink utterly stupid. Something like traveling back in time to alter destiny of his deceased lover. Or something similar involving travel back in time, because traveling back in time should not be possible (in other words - prohibited by god)
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Old 2011-05-18, 06:52   Link #10446
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Kyon View Post
Basically, he wants the world to shift from the Aeon of Osiris to the Aeon of Horus. This might involve, as discussed, the murder of god himself.
Whether he is to be replaced or not, I'm not sure, but we can assume that Osiris=AbrahamicRule (Monotheism) Horus=Beyond Religion (hence magic).
It's pretty interesting that Osiris and Horus are mentioned. Since Osiris is the god of the underworld (and hence mortality), and Horus is god of the sky, it could be that our mastermind is attempting to transcend the entire power structure of the current world, where the Angels will all fall to the level of mortals and the mortals rise up to the Angels.

So yeah, I agree with your assumption. By destroying the current hierarchy centered on Abrahamic Monotheism and its layers of magical castes, perhaps Aleister is looking toward a new "heaven".
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Old 2011-05-18, 06:55   Link #10447
Kuroi Hadou
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
It's pretty interesting that Osiris and Horus are mentioned. Since Osiris is the god of the underworld (and hence mortality), and Horus is god of the sky, it could be that our mastermind is attempting to transcend the entire power structure of the current world, where the Angels will all fall to the level of mortals and the mortals rise up to the Angels.
Unless I'm not remembering correctly (again ), Aleister desires the secrets Aiwass still hasn't told him. Given just how far above Crowley Aiwass is, there's probably a lot Aiwass hasn't told him.
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Old 2011-05-18, 07:08   Link #10448
Phibrizzo
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Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou View Post
Depends on your interpretation of the Holy Trinity, really.
How can you interpreted the holy trinity in another way (sorry Catholic here) and for what I know of other religions is always the same doctrine about it.
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Old 2011-05-18, 07:20   Link #10449
Kuroi Hadou
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phibrizzo View Post
How can you interpreted the holy trinity in another way (sorry Catholic here) and for what I know of other religions is always the same doctrine about it.
Some interpretations of the Holy Trinity (Trinitarianism) have God as being three beings (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) sharing a singular divine nature and essence (which is how Catholicism interprets it, if I remember correctly). In other words, whatever characteristics the Father has, the Son and Holy Spirit have as well. Other interpretations (Nontrinitarianism) have "God" as being three beings that do not share the same characteristics and essence, but are rather united in purpose rather than being different manifestations of a singular will.

The nontrinitarian approach gives yield to the possibility that the Father occupies the Center Seat, and Son the Right Seat, and the Holy Spirit either occupying neither/both (being omnipresent and thus occupying both seats simultaneously and in conjunction to the other two) or occupying a Left Seat. Or something to that effect.
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Old 2011-05-18, 07:23   Link #10450
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phibrizzo View Post
How can you interpreted the holy trinity in another way (sorry Catholic here) and for what I know of other religions is always the same doctrine about it.
The basic premise is the same, but the exact relations between the Father, Son, and Spirit is still in dispute among the large church factions. For example, let me give the difference between the Roman Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox.

The Roman Catholics believes that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, while the the Eastern Orthodox does not recognize the Son part (saying only "from the Father"). Basically, the Catholics elevated the Son (Jesus) above the Spirit (very small difference, but still a difference nevertheless), which the Orthodox does not recognize. Meanwhile, any specific mentions by the Protestants on this issue is concluded by saying that the Spirit is sent from the Father, by the Son, thereby avoiding the entire argument.


So yes, even if the basic idea of the Trinity remains the same, the ever slight differences within the power relations of the Father, Son, and Spirit according to the various sects keeps the definition of the Trinity ever in dispute, and this doesn't even include the nontrinitarian arguments.
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Old 2011-05-18, 07:28   Link #10451
Phibrizzo
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I would check about it, thanks for the info, which the holy trinity does give me the idea that the IB is "The holy spirit" because even "The son of god" had to be purified by John the Baptist with the holy spirit comming to "Purify and cleanse god".
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Old 2011-05-18, 07:32   Link #10452
Sumeragi
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One can spend a lifetime studying just the Holy Trinity. I've had the experience to study the various dogmas due to the fact that my mother's family is Roman Catholic, and my second cousin/fiance's mother is Protestant.

Anyway, I think unless we get more info on the exact power structure of the Angels, it will take some time for us to figure out exactly what was wrong with Fiamma's plan, and the exact position of Aiwass within this power structure.
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Old 2011-05-18, 07:36   Link #10453
Kuroi Hadou
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phibrizzo View Post
I would check about it, thanks for the info, which the holy trinity does give me the idea that the IB is "The holy spirit" because even "The son of god" had to be purified by John the Baptist with the holy spirit comming to "Purify and cleanse god".
Now that you mention it, it does seem to fit: In a sense, IB "purified" HR by giving it a suitable vessel to manifest in without Fiamma's human nature interfering...

Hm...

Son of God = Holy Right
Holy Spirit = Imagine Breaker
God the Father = ?

Maybe there's a third Right Hand out there somewhere?
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Old 2011-05-18, 07:44   Link #10454
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou View Post
Now that you mention it, it does seem to fit: In a sense, IB "purified" HR by giving it a suitable vessel to manifest in without Fiamma's human nature interfering...

Hm...

Son of God = Holy Right
Holy Spirit = Imagine Breaker
God the Father = ?

Maybe there's a third Right Hand out there somewhere?
But then we have to think: Did IB come from HR, or were they separate? And if there is a Father, what would it be, and how would it have given birth to HR and IB?

Maybe I'm thinking too dogmatically.
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Old 2011-05-18, 07:48   Link #10455
Kuroi Hadou
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
But then we have to think: Did IB come from HR, or were they separate? And if there is a Father, what would it be, and how would it have given birth to HR and IB?
Well if you go by the "Right Hand That Creates Miracles" (Holy Right) and the "Right Hand That Destroys Miracles" (Imagine Breaker) approach, they're really two sides of the same coin: Power over miracles. On the other hand (pun not intended), IB is technically a feat of the Right Hand, so it could have come from HR.
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Old 2011-05-18, 07:53   Link #10456
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou View Post
Well if you go by the "Right Hand That Creates Miracles" (Holy Right) and the "Right Hand That Destroys Miracles" (Imagine Breaker) approach, they're really two sides of the same coin: Power over miracles. On the other hand (pun not intended), IB is technically a feat of the Right Hand, so it could have come from HR.
Wait, so while the Spirit comes from the Son, the Son needs the Spirit to truly reveal Himself as the Son of the Father? That does make sense.

Then, we need to find the Father.....
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Old 2011-05-18, 08:42   Link #10457
apsody243
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And in the next volume we find out that Fiamma of the Right is Touya's illegitimate child and Touma's long lost brother.

Sorry couldn't resist
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Old 2011-05-18, 09:35   Link #10458
ellifeedn
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With all this talk of right hands, what would happen if someone with a power in their left hand appears?
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Old 2011-05-18, 09:38   Link #10459
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by ellifeedn View Post
With all this talk of right hands, what would happen if someone with a power in their left hand appears?
Most likely we're going to see a clash between "western" (right is always the best hand) and the "eastern" (opposites needed for balance). I don't think the author would go that far make the story even more complex.
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Old 2011-05-18, 09:41   Link #10460
Kuroi Hadou
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Originally Posted by ellifeedn View Post
With all this talk of right hands, what would happen if someone with a power in their left hand appears?
Well it's certainly possible. But the left hand is generally considered the hand of the unfavored and devious. The Latin word for "left" is "sinistra"...
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