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Old 2011-05-18, 12:58   Link #941
Icy.Tear
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I think there's been an expectation train wreck for some people (e.g. Syn's frustration). I also think the "apologists" need to do their research better rather than just insult those people. Use Kaoru Chujo's example as how to do it, please.

I'm enjoying the series for the wacky and the cute ... but I also see where Syn's frustration comes from as story events seem to be vectoring towards some explanation but then it never (hasn't been yet) is given. Also, SHAFT or Shinbou isn't purely known for this kind of stuff (coughs and points to works like Tsukuyomi Moon Phase). Madoka may have been a "one-off" rather than a "sea-change" for SHAFT, but its impossible to assert either assessment until they roll out a few more series.
I wasn't aware that I was insulting anybody.

That is, if you were referring to me.
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Old 2011-05-18, 13:32   Link #942
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Agreeing with this. I was coming into this expecting a SHAFT-y, weird blend of Bakemonogatari, Haruhi Suzumiya and Higurashi no Naku Koro ni only with aliens instead of gods.

What I got was a generic harem moeblob show with a ton of deliciously hot women desperate to *** themselves on the protagonist's *** . Sweaty basement otaku wish-fulfillment fantasy at its finest.

Nobody's died yet, nobody's gone insane and gone on a murderous rampage, aliens haven't abducted anyone, no MJ-12, no men in black, no Illuminati, no Noisy Crickets...

Bo~ring.

Edit: Sorry SHAFT, but Puella Magi Madoka Magica set a new standard for your work. Producing this puerile moeshit after achieving that level of excellence is just a *** shame. The bar's been raised and you guys did the raising yourself--so what the hell is this?
What I got was a touching story about the relationship between two cousins, one normal and one of whom is almost certainly suffering some sort of mental illness and can't seem to interact with normal people. I keep suspecting the author watched Haruhi, asked how it would have played out if some of the characters were just just insane rather than had supernatural powers, and decided to run with it.

Between the UFO references and the mentally ill female lead, this actually reminds me a lot of Iriya no Sora, UFO no Natsu, although this is going more of a "emotionally poignant comedy" route whereas that show went for "tears and heavy romantic drama".

As for the harem... meh. I suppose I can criticize (most) of them as extraneous characters mainly used for info-drops. I say most because IMO this show needs a "normal" option to contrast with Erio. For the most part, I pay theme little attention because they're in the background most of the time - certainly they wouldn't exert much influence on my opinion of the show.

(Of course, if the author throws Erio on the backburner in order to pump up with harem antics like Infinite Stratos put Charlotte on the backburner, then I'll rage. That's the kind of thing that does frustrate me about harem shows.)
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Old 2011-05-18, 13:43   Link #943
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Originally Posted by YoakeNoHikari View Post
I wasn't aware that I was insulting anybody.

That is, if you were referring to me.
Nope, I think that he was referring to me. That's fine though even if I got a bad rep for that. Because I'm sure that those type of people do exist. Note that I don't refer to people who don't like Denpa Onna. If it's not what they expect then it's not a problem at all. I just respond to the thought of moe = automatically crap in your last post.
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Old 2011-05-18, 16:31   Link #944
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It's not really the fault of the show, honestly.

It's the fault of the entire industry. Really, I don't know what the whole problem is, but I'm sure the state of the industry and the economy is probably partially to blame.

And yeah, I never really cared for SHAFT much until Madoka, so I went back and poked around to see what else they did in the past. And you guys are completely right--they've done far more things on the level of Denpa Onna than on the level of Madoka. I mean, I did watch Bakemonogatari when it was airing, and it was good for a laugh a bit, but it was a bit too postmodern for my tastes. Other than that I've never really noticed SHAFT much.

My frustration stems from this:

Besides Madoka, the last series (chronologically) that I really, truly cared about was The Daughter of Twenty Faces. That show was put out two years ago. Why is everything just so much crap these days? I'm not getting it.

Why the obsession with this daily-life cute-comedy, romance and wish-fulfillment harems? Why can't I get strong female characters who aren't sexually objectified in one manner or another? Male characters who aren't loser-wimps?

If it's not moe dramedy--which, I might add, I do not hate, as I quite enjoyed Clannad--it's Naruto or Shana clones. Or it's a harem show where every girl has a serious craving for the loser-guy protagonist.

Does nothing else make money? Should I just go back to reading books and screw all moving-picture media?
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Old 2011-05-18, 16:35   Link #945
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
....Madoka may have been a "one-off" rather than a "sea-change" for SHAFT, but its impossible to assert either assessment until they roll out a few more series.
Completely agreed on this regard.
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Old 2011-05-18, 16:53   Link #946
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I think there's been an expectation train wreck for some people (e.g. Syn's frustration). I also think the "apologists" need to do their research better rather than just insult those people. Use Kaoru Chujo's example as how to do it, please.
What? This goes both ways. synaesthetic was just as insuting, if not more, than any of the "apologists" were. Honestly, I'm surprised most people reacted to his post in such a civil manner, or even bother reacting at all considering it was total trollbait. "Hurr, this show is moe crap for sweaty basement otaku."

Anyway, my opinion is the same as graywolf202. If you think this show is nothing more than moeshit, you're not watching it properly.
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Old 2011-05-18, 16:59   Link #947
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Originally Posted by graywolf202 View Post
(Another illustration about subtlety, though I'd hate to make this comparison, when you watched episode 1-2 of Bakemonogatari, were you able to gauge what type of anime it was?)
I never got the idea besides to the "guy rushes to help girl with problems".
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Old 2011-05-18, 17:09   Link #948
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Why is everything just so much crap these days? I'm not getting it.

Why the obsession with this daily-life cute-comedy, romance and wish-fulfillment harems? Why can't I get strong female characters who aren't sexually objectified in one manner or another? Male characters who aren't loser-wimps?

Does nothing else make money? Should I just go back to reading books and screw all moving-picture media?
those would all seem to be "interesting" questions (though, have to disagree with some, if not all of them. mainly because of their silliness)
but I'm pretty sure you already know the answer. - or, that is what I'd like to hope...
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Old 2011-05-18, 17:29   Link #949
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post

Does nothing else make money? Should I just go back to reading books and screw all moving-picture media?
Actually, that is exactly what you should do if you don't like how things are. There are many choices out there.
And if enough people do that, then things might change since industries need to attract people to survive.

That does not mean that I think things are a mess in the anime industry. And I am liking Denpa. When something does not please me, I don't watch it/ read it. That's it.
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Old 2011-05-18, 17:55   Link #950
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Agreeing with this. I was coming into this expecting a SHAFT-y, weird blend of Bakemonogatari, Haruhi Suzumiya and Higurashi no Naku Koro ni only with aliens instead of gods.

What I got was a generic harem moeblob show with a ton of deliciously hot women desperate to fling themselves on the protagonist. Sweaty basement otaku wish-fulfillment fantasy at its finest.

Nobody's died yet, nobody's gone insane and gone on a murderous rampage, aliens haven't abducted anyone, no MJ-12, no men in black, no Illuminati, no Noisy Crickets...

Bo~ring.

Edit: Sorry SHAFT, but Puella Magi Madoka Magica set a new standard for your work. Producing this... after achieving that level of excellence is just a shame. The bar's been raised and you guys did the raising yourself--so what the hell is this?
According to what you are saying... you should be complaining to the author of the light novel, not Shaft.
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Old 2011-05-18, 18:08   Link #951
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It's the fault of the entire industry. Really, I don't know what the whole problem is, but I'm sure the state of the industry and the economy is probably partially to blame.
No, it is fault of YOU not knowing how animation industry even works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
And yeah, I never really cared for SHAFT much until Madoka, so I went back and poked around to see what else they did in the past. And you guys are completely right--they've done far more things on the level of Denpa Onna than on the level of Madoka. I mean, I did watch Bakemonogatari when it was airing, and it was good for a laugh a bit, but it was a bit too postmodern for my tastes. Other than that I've never really noticed SHAFT much.
If you never cared about Shaft, you don't really have position to downright attack Shaft's capability for Denpa Onna.

Mado Magi is moe animation, by the way. Except it has 'deeper' plot, that's pretty much it.

Quote:
My frustration stems from this:

Besides Madoka, the last series (chronologically) that I really, truly cared about was The Daughter of Twenty Faces. That show was put out two years ago. Why is everything just so much crap these days? I'm not getting it.
Many people have different opinion. I personally think this 2011 is start of another golden age for animation industry.

Quote:
Why the obsession with this daily-life cute-comedy, romance and wish-fulfillment harems? Why can't I get strong female characters who aren't sexually objectified in one manner or another? Male characters who aren't loser-wimps?
As I said, Denpa Onna is not even harem. Harem is when every single character in the series loves single male. This is just other male characters is ignored due to the setting, thus create environment that main protagonist can solely interact with female characters without interruption. In that circumstance, it is practically impossible to create proper harem.

Denpa Onna is not a romance series. It is pretty obvious that romance will never, ever become the focus of the series. Erio and Meme is already pretty strong character just by their appearance and nature. Erio believes about Alien, but tries her best to return to society. Meme is milf mom who brings lights to overall story telling. If you can't see anything like this but cute girl doing cute things, you are clearly disadvantaging yourself.

Daily life cute comedy has been there since the start of animation industry, as a form of Mahou Shoujo series. There is no obsession, that's what anime and manga has always been like.

Every characters are sexually objectified, and it is inevitable. If character is not cute or handsome even in the biggest masterpiece ever made, people cannot sympathies with the characters AT ALL. If you complain about 'sexually objectified females', you are insulting the animation media as a whole.

Please tell me if there was any harem animation that male protagonist was 'loser' in any way that recently aired, because I cannot see anything like that currently. Even Infinite Stratos never had loser male. Edited: Possibly Onii Chan no koto or zombie desuka, but that is 2 out of like 50 different series that has aired this year.

Quote:
If it's not moe dramedy--which, I might add, I do not hate, as I quite enjoyed Clannad--it's Naruto or Shana clones. Or it's a harem show where every girl has a serious craving for the loser-guy protagonist.
Please tell me any example of those shows that aired recently. I can not find a single thing, loser guy harem. If you are refering to Denpa Onna, you are, clearly, wrong, by thousand miles. You can criticise for its incoherent story telling or unwitty dialogues, but you cannot judge quality with amount of moe. Simply put, moe is just icing over characters and story. If it disturbs you from seeing Denpa Onna's true property as character driven show, eccentric characters interacting, and developing in various way, it's solely YOUR fault.

Quote:
Does nothing else make money? Should I just go back to reading books and screw all moving-picture media?
Read Shakespeare, then.

Edited: I seriously wonder. What people seriously want from animation? Some sort of DEEP animation or Gurren Lagann scale epicness? That don't even make me laugh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
In Madoka only 2nd iteration Homura and thereafter could be considered unfriendly, but no way socially dysfunctional at Hitagi or Erio levels. In Negima, some girls are a little eccentric but still quite social. And we are talking about the studio, not Shinbou, however much influence the man has, SHAFT is not Shinbou
Shaft is Shinbo.
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Last edited by applejuice; 2011-05-18 at 18:22.
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Old 2011-05-18, 18:26   Link #952
synaesthetic
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Oh I know very well how the industry works. Like most industries, it panders to the base it makes the most money from, and the money-making base happens to be the crazy obsessive otakus and the teenage boys who watch shonen action shows.

This really isn't the place for this discussion. I came in here to express frustration at the fact that apparently, things changed so drastically what was being released before is no longer now. A few years ago I used to be always following at least one show. It's not happening anymore. My tastes haven't really changed that much--if anything, they've expanded, because I can actually get some enjoyment from plotless/slice-of-life romance and comedy, and I used to hate all of it.

I really shouldn't have expected this show to be anything more than it is, but I didn't know about the LN, I only knew that the message it was sending me gave off a very intense Higurashi/Umineko vibe of "counting the minutes until mutilated corpses start showing up" and I thought I'd be into an extraterrestrial thriller/mystery.

I got the wrong idea. Sorry if that offends you so goddamned much. I'm not watching the show anymore, anyway--it's not what I'm interested in. I don't like this kind of story, and it seems that this kind of story is everywhere now. I can't escape it, and that's where the hostility and frustration comes from.

And I am not a guy--perhaps if you thought about that for a minute, you might have more easily realized why these kind of shows can be offensive to people.
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Old 2011-05-18, 19:01   Link #953
Icy.Tear
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
And I am not a guy--perhaps if you thought about that for a minute, you might have more easily realized why these kind of shows can be offensive to people.
Ara, ara~~

I'm not a guy too, y'know, 'tisn't really a reason.

At any rate, what kind of story are you saying Denpa Onna is?

If you look at it as a coming of age story with great characters, it's the same type of story as Onani Master Kurosawa.

And, as applejuice said, anime is a source of entertainment, and as such, it shouldn't need to be Lain-style to be called a good show. Sure, there are those anime that touch you to the depths of your soul, but as with any other medium, such works are rare, which is what makes them special.
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Old 2011-05-18, 19:11   Link #954
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Why is everything just so much crap these days? I'm not getting it.
It's not

Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Why the obsession with this daily-life cute-comedy, romance and wish-fulfillment harems?
Easier to write, flexible to adapt, cheaper to animate, can drag forever if successful... What ealse can a producer dream of?

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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Why can't I get strong female characters who aren't sexually objectified in one manner or another?
For the first part, there a lot, actually more these days. For the second part, it depends how you define sexual objectification. If you go by the neo-feminist definitions who try to undo what the feminist movement achieved for women in the previous century, you're right, the only media that does not objectify women are neo-conservative christian, fundamentalist muslim, and orthodox jewish shows

But to put things into perspective here, take Meme, a 40-year old moe-blob, who is a lone mother bringing up her delusional, shut-in, and teenage daughter, while working and taking care of her brother's son. So what is so bad about teasing her nephew? wait, I know, because unlike the ideal red-neck housewife is not boring, fat and ugly, withdrawn from life... now come neo-feminist and rant about sexual objectification

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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Male characters who aren't loser-wimps?
Generally, I will agree, that late night shows need leads with which the audience can identify. But, there are exception... again here in Denpa, the protagonist is neither a loser, nor a wimp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
If it's not moe dramedy--which, I might add, I do not hate, as I quite enjoyed Clannad--it's Naruto or Shana clones. Or it's a harem show where every girl has a serious craving for the loser-guy protagonist.

Does nothing else make money? Should I just go back to reading books and screw all moving-picture media?
Judging from DVD/BD sales, let's see Bakemonogatari, Madoka, Geass, Macross F, Haruhi, Fate/Stay Night, OreImou, Hetalia, Nanoha sold over 20k and do not really fit the above categories.

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Originally Posted by applejuice View Post
Shaft is Shinbo.
Just NO! even if today Shinbou is the only director left there, he is not doing the animation alone. I agree that he has a strong influence, but you can see that even the animation and the direction differ depending with which people he is working with each time.
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Old 2011-05-18, 19:16   Link #955
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YoakeNoHikari View Post
Ara, ara~~

I'm not a guy too, y'know, 'tisn't really a reason.

At any rate, what kind of story are you saying Denpa Onna is?

If you look at it as a coming of age story with great characters, it's the same type of story as Onani Master Kurosawa.

And, as applejuice said, anime is a source of entertainment, and as such, it shouldn't need to be Lain-style to be called a good show. Sure, there are those anime that touch you to the depths of your soul, but as with any other medium, such works are rare, which is what makes them special.
Well, I'm going to argue with the person above and say it's harem. Male main character, no other significant male characters, loads of attractive female characters, all of them very interested in the main character. That defines harem to me.

Had I known this to begin with, had I researched a bit about the light novel the show is adapted from, I would never have bothered watching it. I never would have been fooled into believing this was a thriller/mystery.

The first few episodes--especially the first episode--hinted very much at the fact that Erio was really an alien. After all, PTSD-ridden shut-ins with severe mental trauma are usually not absolutely drop-dead gorgeous with hair so lustrous and shiny that it literally sparkles. Fictional characters with severe mental issues are usually portrayed as looking like two miles of bad road or massive woobies, not supermodels from another planet. Plus, they strongly suggested with Meme's odd behavior that something very wrong was going on here--and the main character was the hapless normal plopped right in the middle of something extremely not good.

Subsequent episodes show this is clearly not the case, Erio just has PTSD, Meme is just an irresponsible woman-child, and other female characters are popping up and showing ah, unrealistic levels of interest in the main character. No aliens, no conspiracies, no men-in-black, no weird happenings that aren't just SHAFT-y postmodernism.

So the problem? I was unintentionally hoodwinked. I got a blue skirt when I asked for a purple skirt, and the light in the store was bad enough that I couldn't tell if the skirt was actually blue or purple. Next time I'll make sure to check what the new show I'm interested in is being adapted from. I really do wish I didn't have to, though. It would be nice to go into these things without spoilers.
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Old 2011-05-18, 19:23   Link #956
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Well, the person above will argue with you regardless

WTF did you expect, when you see one male character and four females? reverse harem? shoujo? sci-fi action? no research is necessary... just common sense

As for Madoka, the entropy/alien crap was the worst idea ever, in an otherwise wonderful show. I would consider ourselves lucky, if there is a rational/psychological/sociological background to what happened to Erio
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Old 2011-05-18, 19:25   Link #957
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Well, I'm going to argue with the person above and say it's harem. Male main character, loads of attractive female characters, all of them very interested in the main character. That defines harem to me.
Hmm, I'm not sure I entirely agree here. Meme is obviously just being a weirdo, I mean look at the short exchange on the phone with her brother. The girl (forgot name) who calls him transfer student hasn't made any romantic moves on him far as I can tell, though she teased ryuuko a bit.

While Ryuuko is obviously interested in him and Erio has become fond of him, I would also agree with "loads of attractive girls" but they don't seem to all be interested in his pants (meme is a big question mark but I stand by she's just being an idiot, albeit going too far). I think she simply acts to see a reaction.

When I think Harem, I thin of things like clannad (first season), shuffle, da capo, etc. where there is literally 3+ girls all very romantically inclined to the male protagonist.

Makoto regularly converse with all these females (being the protagonist) but only one of them seems romantically interested in him (excluding meme(?) ). I wouldn't call it a harem in its current form, it could go that way but I don't see it doing so.
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Old 2011-05-18, 19:29   Link #958
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All right, all right, I'm just saying I don't like it, and never would have bothered if I hadn't been sold a bill of goods on what the show supposedly contained!

So yeah, I'm basically not watching this show anymore. A friend is still watching it, and I told him to promise to tell me if anyone started dying or mutilated corpses showed up or real, actual aliens started killing people...

Really been craving a good horror. Wish I still had my PS2, I'd do a Silent Hill marathon...
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Old 2011-05-18, 19:34   Link #959
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
All right, all right, I'm just saying I don't like it, and never would have bothered if I hadn't been sold a bill of goods on what the show supposedly contained!

So yeah, I'm basically not watching this show anymore. A friend is still watching it, and I told him to promise to tell me if anyone started dying or mutilated corpses showed up or real, actual aliens started killing people...

Really been craving a good horror. Wish I still had my PS2, I'd do a Silent Hill marathon...
Good horrors are pretty rare in anime, wish there was more myself, also, ps2 is cheap as dirt nowadays

Back on topic, I will agree this show turned out to be very different form what I originally expected as well, unlike you I'm still enjoying it but I can agree the exact genre was pretty unclear at the start.
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Old 2011-05-18, 19:36   Link #960
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LOL@rage-quit

But try something like steins;gate or deadman wonderland... to expect from denpa the cast dying or mutilated corpses, actual aliens starting killing people... what can it's denpa
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