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Old 2011-05-30, 05:29   Link #281
BaKaBaKaOtaKu
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i'd take hitomi over sayaka.
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Old 2011-05-30, 06:43   Link #282
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conclusion: kamijou's officially now recognized as a bastard based on official interview.
Period. Maybe Kamijou is a nice person overall, and a talented musician, but I feel like signing under Kyouko's words in TL6. Dying for a guy you like? Generally tragic and romantic in fiction, but dying for this particular guy was a waste of Sayaka. Not that becoming a magical girl for him was completely useless - his music will now bring happiness to people and at least half the credit for that happiness goes to our genki knight, plus the people she may have saved by hunting witches and demons - but he simply doesn't look worth the pain it caused her.

Yuri shipping or not, I'll stand rock-firm from now on that with whatever degree of friendship/affection/intimacy (you make the call, based on how you treat such things), Kyouko is a much better pair for Sayaka. Despite being of the same sex and sporting an ultimate brat facade. Oh, the irony.

Thanks for the interview link, there were soe pretty interesting things to read, although I'm STILL puzzled about what exactly Kyouko's powers were. Her lifestyle has already been proven in Oriko manga, but it's now official that she's not viewed as a person to deliberately harm people. It raises a big question whether she even intended to kill Sayaka in their first encounter or just bash her out of commission and claim the turf.

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I'm more annoyed that Kamijou is such a weak person. I've seen guitar players who had no hands and still played. If he really did have a passion for the violin, he'd be able to play even without the use of his hands.
His other hand was apparently OK. But we'll never know if without Sayaka's interference he would have eventually retrained himself and found a way to play. Or if he could have been healed medically years later (the whole setting looks like 2020s at least, there must be some progress in medicine, really). But regaining full health by magic, he can use his talent to the fullest extent. And he'd better do that.

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Well, he did apologize to Sayaka, for what it's worth (Who told him that he shouldn't worry about it)
That's why I assume he's a nice person overall, and not above acknowledging his faults. And I put faith in your opinion that he did attend the funeral. It's just something I want to believe, lest I should get even more bitter towards him. And I have little doubt that he didn't take the news about Sayaka's death too well, if she was his close friend and all. Who knows, maybe if his reaction was shown in the anime, even briefly, people would not be that harsh on him.
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Old 2011-05-30, 13:44   Link #283
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A lot of the tragedies the girls died for generally aren't worth dying for. There are terminal incurable illnesses like pancreatic cancer, and not everyone has the opportunity to wish it all away. Kyoko having a family in poverty isn't unique. There are also plenty who would wish that they could meet a loved one again. All of the situations the girls were in and wanted to wish for can be found in the real world, but unlike them, others have no choice but to cope to continue living or degrade themselves as they're overcome by grief. If regular people can cope, then there's no reason that the Puella Magi couldn't as well.

Second, there's no reason to expect a level of gratitude equal or higher than the good deed accomplished. Placing such an unrealistic expectation on the return only leads to disappointment and is exactly what Sayaka did. Sayaka chose not to reveal her feelings to Kamijou, but Hitomi did. With no knowledge of what Sayaka has done for Kamijou, why is he expected to pair up with her like we're forcing some arranged marriage?

If we really want to place an objective evaluation on each of the characters' values and priorities, then in reality none of what they did is worth it. The girls could have learned to deal with pain, poverty, and death like normal people do. Kyoko could have killed Oktavia and kept herself alive to help Homura fight Walpurgisnacht. Sayaka could have given up on Kamijou and went for another guy. Then, if the next guy doesn't work, she can still try another.

However, since we do not share the same emotions they had in the moment, it's a given that we don't understand why they placed such importance on what they did. We are not friends with Madoka. Kyoko's father was not our father. We are not the ones who fell in love with Kamijou.
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Old 2011-05-30, 16:19   Link #284
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And people failing to understand that is pretty much the root of all the Sayaka hate threads at /a/.
Of course, nobody in their right mind would expect Kamijou to feel obliged to Sayaka for something he didn't even know her to have done for him (and probably he's better off not knowing ). Sayaka herself seemed to realize it, just as she might have realized he's not exactly swooning over her. But she couldn't help hoping for something. Maybe subconsciously picturing her future like that of a comic superhero with double identity, managing to save the world at night and share Kyousuke's happiness of music at day, slowly getting closer to him until... (insert the good ol' Mendelson here). Mind you, that's something a lot of traditional magical girls manage to achieve, hence the constant bitter conclusion that our Sayaka found herself in the wrong series. Instead of a superhero, she became someone who did NOT fit into the future she might have imagined (that's how she saw it, at least). Thanks to Kyouko (and in TL6, assumably thanks to the others as well, as she had Mami by her side and likely was on much better terms with Homura) she seemed to have snapped out of it for a short while, but in the end she couldn't get over it. Quitting an unreciprocated love and finding another love interest is better said than done for a teenage girl, let alone one who stopped viewing herself as a normal human being. Just like Mami said, "she couldn't handle the change". And it's the same old story in the end, whether she sits and angsts herself into witchhood or burns her soul away in desperate fighting. And we can only WISH she had gotten over it somehow, not with contempt for Sayaka's character but with compassion.
Yet it's the same point of view that makes me think Kamijou wasn't worth her death. Like I said, I don't see her wish as meaningless, but her sheer suffering and fall is too painful, and Kamijou, while not playing a deliberate role in the events, was surely a factor here. And that factor stems from his behaviour which remains hardly approvable even in regards to a close friend rather than a love interest. Of course, he gets his share of wham - you didn't have time to talk to your friend, well now you don't have a chance to talk to her, nd you never will. In regards to Sayaka's fate Kamijou remains both a plot element and simply a guy who, even taking the situation into account, just did not behave too well by simple social standards. That's what will bug people about him for a long time.
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Old 2011-05-30, 22:29   Link #285
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You can say healing his hand would end up in a reward for Sayaka, but the issue here is, Sayaka had no idea he didn't see as more than a friend. Even if she didn't expect him to suddenly love her, due to her making a contract for him - and he shouldn't since he had no idea about that - she probably expected him to take notice of her after having devoted so much time for him, trying to cheer him up in the hospital. Notice that she had given up on the idea of contracting, after Mami died, but went for it after Kamijou went all emo. She wanted a chance to have a normal time with him, and that's why she wished for his hand to be healed.

Now, whilst she knew the life of a MS was dangerous, she had no idea how the system worked. She had no idea her soul was getting ripped from her body and put in the Soul Gem. Nor did she knew, the purpose of MGs was to become witches, after going through constant despair. Had she known about these things, then she'd probably have thought things even further.

As for his career as a violinist being worthy of Sayaka's life, that's up to her to decide. The problem was she never had all the info needed to make a proper choice.
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Old 2011-05-31, 00:24   Link #286
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
With no knowledge of what Sayaka has done for Kamijou, why is he expected to pair up with her like we're forcing some arranged marriage?
However, Sayaka did more than contracting with Kyubey for his sake. She also visited him in the hospital everyday. It can be argued that Hitomi possibly did the same, but that is only a speculation others make to defend Hitomi. It wasn't presented in the series, so why speculate it. Sayaka and Kyosuke have been established as childhood friends, whereas Hitomi has only been established as his school friend. I see no reason to speculate any further than what we've been shown.

With this being said, I find it quite peculiar to choose a school friend over a childhood friend, whom also happens to faithfully visit your spoiled jerkass self. Is he really that easy? Or does he like polite girls over the energetic ones? I just don't see how he couldn't have grown at least a bit of feelings for Sayaka. She is a good person, that's known him for a while, and does so much for him. Even before her contract, she had always been selfless when it came to Kyosuke.
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Old 2011-05-31, 02:40   Link #287
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Originally Posted by wavehawk View Post
Where is this going? Well, in my mind it's obvious that Kamijou would pick Hitomi.
using the interview as basis of kamijou's mindset, most probably hitomi would be seen as gf-material. their interaction in the park under the setting sun spells a glaring disparity compared to him and saya. kamijou is specially kind to potential love interests.

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I'm sure Kamijou attended the funeral. He might be a bit insensitive and thickheaded, but he's not that heartless. >_>
in fairness to kamijou, he's presence in the funeral is not mandatory. we must also consider he's feeling of guilt and maybe partly responsible to saya's demise since none of them knew about the puella magi system and taking into account they were indeed "CLOSE FRIENDS". what we need to know is if he did MOURN OVER saya. that would be enough that at least he do care about his "CLOSE FRIEND." i would be waiting for the bd release of ep 7 and 12 for this.

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Originally Posted by Snork View Post
Kyouko is a much better pair for Sayaka.
can't really blame saya for falling to that guy. that's love. even the most despicable bastards have admirers. but if we're looking for a happy and fulfilling saya end, kyouko would be the better choice. others might want to consider a happy end with kamijou, but i don't think he's that good. since he's a rising star and everything happens so fast (his excuse), girls flock to him and thus his infidelity. saya would suffer in the end. saya doesn't deserve that.

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'm STILL puzzled about what exactly Kyouko's powers were.
the interview blew everything for kamijou. the "bastard corner" was actually a waste of space when everything could have been said in one line since many things mentioned contradict or unverifiable in the tv episodes. and i would prefer kyouko to be given more space since her magic powers are still a mystery. well, i hope oriko manga will show some of it.

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Originally Posted by CrimsonSunshine View Post
I find it quite peculiar to choose a school friend over a childhood friend
maybe westermarck effect should be blamed. but what would be really odd is if kamijou immediately accepted hitomi on the spot, which i think he did.
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Old 2011-05-31, 06:25   Link #288
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Sayaka had no idea he didn't see as more than a friend.
I've already pondered the opposite, but there's no way I can find anything to support my guess.

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Notice that she had given up on the idea of contracting, after Mami died, but went for it after Kamijou went all emo.
Yes, and she had considered this before (especially after seeing him crying in ep 3). Giving up on contracting was caused by the same shock Madoka experienced, and also based on some solidarity with her friend (she apologized to Madoka after contracting).

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She wanted a chance to have a normal time with him, and that's why she wished for his hand to be healed.
I'll second it as at least part of her motivation.

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As for his career as a violinist being worthy of Sayaka's life, that's up to her to decide. The problem was she never had all the info needed to make a proper choice.
Judging by ep 12, she decided it was worth it in the end. Then again, there are slightly different matters here. Becoming a magical girl for Kamijou's health was a sacrifice in itself. I, too, consider it a worthy sacrifice. But "dying for the guy you like" is another aspect. It's not like her death was required for his sake. But it was the issues around this guy, coupled with the truth about the system and the shock it caused Sayaka, that caused her demise. Take away either factor from this sum, and Puella Magi Sayaka would likely have much better odds of surviving and living the rest of her life as a defender of justice. The inability to solve this in such a way is the main thing to regret for a Sayaka fan out there. I bet quite a number of people went "OH FFFF" when Sayaka died in TL6, leaving Homura, Mami and Kyouko behind, most likely in the same period of time as in previous timelines. My ranting is never about Kamijou HAVING to propose to her the moment he gets out of the hospital bed. It's more about the plot (and Kamijou as one of its key elements regarding this matter) being undeniably mean to Sayaka. Her being one of my fave characters in the series, I can't help being bugged by "what if?" questions, useless as they are.

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With this being said, I find it quite peculiar to choose a school friend over a childhood friend, whom also happens to faithfully visit your spoiled jerkass self. Is he really that easy? Or does he like polite girls over the energetic ones? I just don't see how he couldn't have grown at least a bit of feelings for Sayaka. She is a good person, that's known him for a while, and does so much for him. Even before her contract, she had always been selfless when it came to Kyosuke.
With the "close friend" issue officially confirmed, I doubt he ever had such a choice before him. For all we know, if Sayaka had made it through those days, she could have been easily KO'd further by finally getting in contact with him, and... "Thanks for everything, Sayaka! Sorry for not being in touch, but there was a lot of things to take care of, and by the way, can you imagine? The second day at school, and I get a love confession! And from a really nice girl, too! She's your friend, so if I decide to ask her out, I might need some tips from you..."

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what we need to know is if he did MOURN OVER saya. that would be enough that at least he do care about his "CLOSE FRIEND." i would be waiting for the bd release of ep 7 and 12 for this.
Damn right. C'mon, Shaft, give us just a bit more this time than the usual cosmetic fixes.

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can't really blame saya for falling to that guy.
Oh, no one can, that's for sure.

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but what would be really odd is if kamijou immediately accepted hitomi on the spot, which i think he did.
A classy and beautiful Yamato Nadeshiko in the flesh confesses to you, what's not to celebrate? Especially if there are no second thoughts concerning your childhood friend whom you don't even SUPPOSE to have special feelings for you.

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but i don't think he's that good. since he's a rising star and everything happens so fast (his excuse), girls flock to him and thus his infidelity. saya would suffer in the end. saya doesn't deserve that.
LOL, and now it's what awaits Hitomi? It redefines irony.
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Old 2011-05-31, 12:59   Link #289
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what we need to know is if he did MOURN OVER saya. that would be enough that at least he do care about his "CLOSE FRIEND." i would be waiting for the bd release of ep 7 and 12 for this.
It would be fun if Shaft trolls everyone by including some scenes that makes Kyosuke look worse than ever before. Like if his mom comes to his room in episode 11 saying that it's time for Sayaka's funeral, only for Kyosuke to brightly respond with "Sorry Mom, can't go, I have a date with Hitomi planned", humming a cheerful tune while he gets ready for the date. The fandom's rage would be delicious.

But yeah, it would definitely be nice to get some new scenes in the Blu-Ray version expanding on Kyosuke's feelings towards both Sayaka's death and Sayaka herself.
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Old 2011-05-31, 15:40   Link #290
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Gosh, in terms of fandom attitude he'd rival Kyuubey... Although a date excuse won't work - while Hitomi did cross Sayaka's path, she didn't feel too well about it, and now that it has ended in such a way, it might take a while before she can go on a date. That is, unless Shaft trolls us about them both.
A more plausible reason would be, "I'm sorry for Sayaka, but I'm in the middle of my violin practice, I'm sure she'd prefer me to dedicate myself to music"... Now, after a line like this, who in the fandom wouldn't wish they could follow the advice Kyouko gave in ep 6?
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Old 2011-05-31, 18:53   Link #291
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maybe westermarck effect should be blamed. but what would be really odd is if kamijou immediately accepted hitomi on the spot, which i think he did.
Considering they're childhood friends and, from what we know, met when they were quite young, it's possible that for some reason or another, all of the time around her simply made Sayaka less of a romantic prospect than Hitomi. and who knows, maybe Kamijou already knew Hitomi before his accident.
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Old 2011-05-31, 18:58   Link #292
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and who knows, maybe Kamijou already knew Hitomi before his accident.
I'd assume he was at least somewhat familiar with who she was. She's one of Sayaka's friends, and he's one of her close friends. It only makes sense that they'd have met or been discussed at some point, even if it wasn't much.
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Old 2011-06-01, 03:13   Link #293
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I'd assume he was at least somewhat familiar with who she was. She's one of Sayaka's friends, and he's one of her close friends. It only makes sense that they'd have met or been discussed at some point, even if it wasn't much.
But this is an assumption, whereas I am wanting it to be established in the series itself.

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Considering they're childhood friends and, from what we know, met when they were quite young, it's possible that for some reason or another, all of the time around her simply made Sayaka less of a romantic prospect than Hitomi.
This is actually a good point. However, maybe I'm taking this all the wrong way. I would have found it somewhat bittersweet if the interview stated he thought of her as a sister, but to not even consider her a woman? That just seems like utter bullshit to me.

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Old 2011-06-01, 05:21   Link #294
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I have many friends among girls, but that doesn't mean I'm viewing them as males, really. If Sayaka was a close friend to Kamijou, it would make sense for him to notice the changes in her behaviour towards him.

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and who knows, maybe Kamijou already knew Hitomi before his accident.
In ep 8, he tells her something like "Huh, Shizuki-san? You don't usually take this road home, do you?". I'm not sure if that's any indication, though.
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Old 2011-06-01, 08:23   Link #295
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I have many friends among girls, but that doesn't mean I'm viewing them as males, really.
It isn't as if Kamijou saw Sayaka as if she was a boy. When they said he didn't see her as a member of the opposite sex, it simply means he never saw her as a potential love interest.

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If Sayaka was a close friend to Kamijou, it would make sense for him to notice the changes in her behaviour towards him.
Well, dude, by now you should have noticed teenage males in anime are dense as black holes.
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Old 2011-06-01, 14:39   Link #296
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Well, these are usually harem protagonists, and Kyousuke hardly looked like one when introduced. Besides, playing the violin does require some brains, I'd say. A person trained in elaborate techniques of an art that supposes emotional input ought to be more perceptive to emotions.
And the "see them as males" part was a pure figure of speech on my part. Of course, Kyousuke would never see Sayaka as boy (though if he did, your notion concerning anime teenage males would fit him 200% ).
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Old 2011-06-01, 14:57   Link #297
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But yeah, it would definitely be nice to get some new scenes in the Blu-Ray version expanding on Kyosuke's feelings towards both Sayaka's death and Sayaka herself.
i hope they do. additional scenes and dialogue for a change than making cosmetic upgrades

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Gosh, in terms of fandom attitude he'd rival Kyuubey...
and this is considering kamijou's supposedly in the 'good side'

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Besides, playing the violin does require some brains, I'd say. A person trained in elaborate techniques of an art that supposes emotional input ought to be more perceptive to emotions.
good point my friend! the insensitivity of kamijou greatly contradicts his gift for music. he's more like a mechanical player. no passion for art at all. music should have rouse him to euphoric state of overwhelming emotions. and music itself should have cured (or at least calmed/lessen his burden) him from his agony/depression. and what exactly he did?
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Old 2011-06-02, 06:04   Link #298
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i hope they do. additional scenes and dialogue for a change than making cosmetic upgrades
Except that 2ch will go about ranting "oh look, a whole scene they couldn't finish in time for the broadcast! Bakemonogatari #2!"
But seriously, there is a common practice of DVD bonus episodes. Why not make one here - and I'm not talking weird fanservice-driven insertions, but something that would add more to the story. One of the latest magazines mentioned that the original script, if left in production, would have made episode 10 twice as long. It's possible that the main points we now hear in CD dramas were initially planned by Gen as the expansion of timelines Homura experienced, but didn't fit into the schedule frame (and I guess Shaft didn't want another headache with having to stream the episodes falling out of the broadcast limit). It's even possible that the evetns of Oriko Magica had to be likewise removed and converted to a different medium (and if you can't show it in one timeline, there's no point in showing it in others - for all we know, it might be not the case of the issue originating in just one timeline, but other timelines rescripted from the start to remove what would have become a mere plot hole). So come on, Shaft, how about it? Even without a sequel, we could do with some midquel OVAs, dwelling on Kamijou, on the past of Mami and Kyouko, on the stories of other magical girls, even (Joan of Ark, anyone?). Before you consider a slice-of-life AU, there's still plenty to be done to the main plotline, and you can bet it's gonna sell.
Not that I don't want a slice-of-life AU as well, though. The prospect of Sayaka staying alive and shining is tempting in itself, and if we're finally shown her hitting it off making friends with Kyouko... I'm in!

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and music itself should have cured (or at least calmed/lessen his burden) him from his agony/depression
to be fair, he had been suggested to abandon music (his music teacher was seriously trippin' there... talk about good intentions and the road they pave), and we still don't know how much of an influence Charlotte might have been, despite how brief her presence was. These are the points I can take into account before accusing him of lashing out on Sayaka (considering that he regretted it and apologised later). Of course, his further behaviour remains less excusable no matter how you look at it.

One might think Kamijou is the sort who gets overly obsessive with music and lets this obsession overwhelm human relationships. But it doesn't show in his interaction with his classmates ot Hitomi. So far, I'm really struggling to understand this guy.

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and this is considering kamijou's supposedly in the 'good side'
Y'know, Kyuubey honestly believes he can say the same about himself.
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Old 2011-06-02, 15:19   Link #299
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to be fair, he had been suggested to abandon music
uhm, if i remember correctly, it was just to give up playing violin not necessarily music. and maybe that's why saya is always bringing cds because it's what he likes and in the belief that music has calming effect on babies recuperating patients.

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So far, I'm really struggling to understand this guy.
setting aside my personal extreme dislike to this bastard, you're not the only one.

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Y'know, Kyuubey honestly believes he can say the same about himself.
and that gives them more similarity only QB is more popular. anyways, i'm sure at least one pm has the same level of hatred on these pricks.
Spoiler for if only was this animated:
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Old 2011-06-03, 05:17   Link #300
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I remember hoping that the whole Kamijou issue would have ended like this (link possibly NSFW).
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