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Old 2011-05-31, 19:41   Link #141
Guardian Enzo
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How can you say that when about Kou when he confessed to Ohana before she left in the first place?
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Old 2011-05-31, 19:53   Link #142
Roger Rambo
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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
How can you say that when about Kou when he confessed to Ohana before she left in the first place?
Well he DID run away right afterward, and didn't personally see her off when she left
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Old 2011-05-31, 19:58   Link #143
Guardian Enzo
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Well he DID run away right afterward, and didn't personally see her off when she left
Well, the point I was responding to was:

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I also disagree about Kou. I think it's dishonest when one friend is harboring feelings for the other person and doesn't say anything. It's really difficult to suddenly realize that your perceptions of the friendship are different, but it's better than never knowing your friendship wasn't what you thought it was.
Which is demonstrably not the case. I don't know how one can expect a totally inexperienced 16 year-old to handle a difficult romantic situation with sophistication, but it doesn't happen very often. Neither of them handled it well - but he did confess to her, which is more than a lot of guys in anime (and indeed, real life) would have done.
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Old 2011-05-31, 20:22   Link #144
.x.crii.x.
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^ Well it certainly is true that he confessed but he said it himself:

"I planned to wait patiently until you realized it yourself."

So his confession came off more as "desperate but lost struggle". Add to the fact that he ran away.

But as you say one can´t really expect much from a 16 year old. But hey, if you really wanna get the girl, get your game on track.

As for Tooru, I completely agree with what Hanashi said. Tooru´s character has his insecurities, specially professional. I think the anime has done a great job so far, in slowly developing his character. Its a slow process, but I think the audience is slowly starting to get to know more about him, and eventually also starting to feel more comfortable about his presence/character.

And also, not just the audience but Ohana too. What did Ohana say about him in the previous episodes?

"I'm not fond of this guy, AT ALL."

And what about this episode?

1. She was surprised when he patted her on the head and told her its ok what she did, that she felt it was for the best so that he was ok with it.
2. She´s starting to slowly understand him.

And most important of all, she said: "Thank you Tooru-san." With a huge, grateful smile on her face.

So, its not like Tooru is this jerk whose suddenly is going to steal Ohana's heart from one episode to another. I think its a great process that they're slowly coming to make Ohana realize that he isn't a bad guy at all. That he's nice, understanding, sharp tounged, but really helpful and kind in his own way.

As for Ko, well, its kind of really hard for me to sympathize with him since we haven't really seen much of him since the anime aired.

To me, hiis character sort of screams: "Supporting/side Character".
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Old 2011-05-31, 20:33   Link #145
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Say what about him? That I think pining over a friend is a little dishonest? He said that he'd always liked her. I don't know how long they've known each other, but that's about two years if they met in high school. He probably never would have said anything if she had stayed. But I think Ohana's move just accelerated events and all this might have happened eventually.

About him learning how to handle his emotions...he was afraid to lose her and he ended up blurting out his feelings and fleeing. I get it. He was scared and he didn't want an answer. He did the same sort of thing when he heard Tooru's voice--he got worried/jealous and asked where she was going without conscious thought.

I like Kou, which is why I want him to learn how to put himself first. Consciously, where it will do him the most good. You need to have a healthy sense of self and your own emotions in a relationship, otherwise you can end up getting subsumed by a stronger personality or by the relationship itself. If Kou/Ohana does happen, I want it to happen in the future.

I love all these characters, actually. They're growing up and trying to figure out how to deal with the changes life throws at them as they go along and they don't always get it right. Those are areas where I think he needs to grow and experience is a great teacher.

[But this isn't about Tooru anymore so let's agree to disagree or move this. ]
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Old 2011-06-01, 12:41   Link #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .x.crii.x. View Post
Pfft, now I want a motorcyle. xDD But my grandma said: "You wanna kill yourself?!" orz

But anyway, I've noticed something. The guys are prefering Ko while the girls are prefering Tooru.

What exactly makes guys prefer Ko over Tooru? Is it that they see themselves in him? Does Tooru perhaps "intimidate" them?

Any guy here willing to answer?
I don't have a strong preference between the two of them, but I think that for guys that prefer Ko over Tooru, this is what it comes down to:

1. Many male viewers can relate to Ko's pain.

We've been "friend zoned" before. We've had romantic confessions go awry or suffer from bad timing. We've had some troubles in the ways of romance. Ko's difficulties are ones that I think most male anime fans can, at least to some extent, relate to.


2. Tooru, in contrast, is something of an alpha male when it comes to the fairer sex.

He's smooth, he's confident, he doesn't get shy or flustered when around attractive members of the opposite sex. In fact, he seems to be pretty good at winning them over (as we see with Minchi, and to some extent, Yuina). He drives a cool motorcycle, and has a cool helmet. I'm inclined to think that he has a good sense of self, and either has few insecurities or hides them well.

It's really not hard to see why female fans go for him.

The female equivalent to Tooru would probably be someone like Misato from NGE, and I know she was pretty popular with male anime fans back in the day (and probably still is judging by Archon's avatar ).

But all of the above makes Tooru a somewhat enviable figure to male viewers, at least when it comes to how he carries himself around girls and women.


It doesn't bother me too much because I tend to like characters (from both genders) that are strong, straightforward, and a bit jovial. Plus, the anime world is frankly loaded with spineless male characters (not saying that Ko is one, at least he did in fact confess). A character like Tooru is hence a bit refreshing really.
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Old 2011-06-01, 12:52   Link #147
Guardian Enzo
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I definitely think you're on-point here - you have a pretty classic alpha male vs. "regular guy" conflict in Tohru vs. Kou. There's no denying Tohru fits the mold and as in nature, when males see another male preening, it tends to rouse the competitive instincts. Why do males like Tohru preen and strut? To attract females, of course - and in nature, that's where the real competition is.

I think this is especially true among younger guys - when they see that alpha male, they get very competitive (anyone who's been to a bar and done some people-watching will know what I mean). When guys get a little older and have settled down with one woman for a while - or come to understand that it's OK to be patient until the right one comes along - it's easier to see the "alpha male" act for what is usually is, a kind of eminence front. It's a cover - but a very effective one.

Of course, both Kou and even Tohru are too young to really understand any of this. Most guys - even alpha males - figure out sooner or later the ultimate flaws in that act. But in terms of entertainment the alpha male vs. nice guy routine is something we see over in over in movies and TV - it makes great drama.
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Old 2011-06-01, 13:15   Link #148
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Pretty much spot on. Though I DO think you're overstating whatever possible emotional angst/insecurities that Tohru might have. I just don't see Tohru's personality as a matter of him being extremely insecure. He's to...relaxed. He's just not pompous enough.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I don't have a strong pref
It doesn't bother me too much because I tend to like characters (from both genders) that are strong, straightforward, and a bit jovial. Plus, the anime world is frankly loaded with spineless male characters (not saying that Ko is one, at least he did in fact confess). A character like Tooru is hence a bit refreshing really.
I'll be completely honest. If Ko by himself was the star of another kind of show, we'd all be talking about how refreshingly not wimpy he was relatively speaking.


I'll admit that the lack of strongly defined male characters IS kind of annoying. Perhaps because I'm less of a person to be concerned with how much I relate to the characters on a personal level, so much as how interesting I want them to be.
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Old 2011-06-01, 13:43   Link #149
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Lack of defined males...annoying? Hell to the yes. I don`t even know how many male characters in many different series I have come accross whom are either completely wimpy, clueless or seem to get their own harems for some unknown reason. :/

And Tooru is definitely what you would refer to as an alpha male. He`s got the personality, the looks and the motorcycle.

On 4chan, people refer to Tooru as alpha and Ko as beta. o.o Saying beta is kinda harsh though. xD;;
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Old 2011-06-01, 13:58   Link #150
Guardian Enzo
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Pretty much spot on. Though I DO think you're overstating whatever possible emotional angst/insecurities that Tohru might have. I just don't see Tohru's personality as a matter of him being extremely insecure. He's to...relaxed. He's just not pompous enough.
Oh, I think he's quite pompous in his way. But in your defense - and also my own - we're all doing a lot of projecting about Tohru. Fact is, we just don't know that much about him - he's mostly been visible in short bursts of motorcycle exhaust, insults and noogies. Has he ever actually had a girlfriend? Does he have an active social life? We just don't know - we know he's an ambitious guy career-wise, but the personal side? Not much. If he is in fact interested in Ohana - and we don't know that he is but if not, an awful lot of virtual ink has been spilled in vain - how do we know? Because he showed affection in the same way a 5th-grade boy does - by insults and playful and harmless physical contact.

One thing is factual - Tohru is a man, and Kou is a boy. It's not a fair fight when you're talking about a 23 year-old with a career and a motorcycle vs. a first-year high schooler with a part-time job and a discount train pass. But if you take the worst-case view of Tohru, Kou isn't doing too badly - he's already proclaimed his love for his girl while as far as we know Tohru has never done more than elementary-school teasing. Problem is, despite his physical remoteness to the story we know more about Kou than we know about Tohru. We know Tohru mostly as a symbolic figure at this point - and very little of his personal life or feelings. Maybe he's already been engaged for all we know, or maybe he sleeps with two women every weekend and then tosses them aside. We really have no idea - all I'm doing and all anyone can do is project based on what behavior we see on-screen. So far, they haven't given us anything else.
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Old 2011-06-01, 16:12   Link #151
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Originally Posted by .x.crii.x. View Post
Lack of defined males...annoying? Hell to the yes. I don`t even know how many male characters in many different series I have come accross whom are either completely wimpy, clueless or seem to get their own harems for some unknown reason. :/
The reason is hardly unknown some creators seem to think a series needs a non intimidating lead for the readers to project into. Though in terms of in universe explanation? Yeah. It's always for some reason. It really feels disingenuous, since it robs guys of potentially cool action leads. And while it's pretty damn condescending to portray female characters as just shallowly throwing themselves lustfully at any impressive looking successful dude and squealing...but somehow it comes off as more condescending when they're just throwing themselves onto some random schlub in huge numbers. Like they don't have standards over who they throw themselves onto.


Spoiler for musings:



Though as you said. Ko is hardly a good example of an *uninspiring wimpy male protagonist*. The show seems to go about portraying as a more regular teenage boy, instead of a wimpy nice guy ubermensch you see so often in some series.
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Oh, I think he's quite pompous in his way.
How exactly? While he has ribbed on Ohana/Minichi for their inexperienced, he's not really carried on with any kind of overt narcissism.

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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
Fact is, we just don't know that much about him - he's mostly been visible in short bursts of motorcycle exhaust, insults and noogies. Has he ever actually had a girlfriend? Does he have an active social life? We just don't know - we know he's an ambitious guy career-wise, but the personal side? Not much. If he is in fact interested in Ohana - and we don't know that he is but if not, an awful lot of virtual ink has been spilled in vain - how do we know? Because he showed affection in the same way a 5th-grade boy does - by insults and playful and harmless physical contact.

One thing is factual - Tohru is a man, and Kou is a boy. It's not a fair fight when you're talking about a 23 year-old with a career and a motorcycle vs. a first-year high schooler with a part-time job and a discount train pass. But if you take the worst-case view of Tohru, Kou isn't doing too badly - he's already proclaimed his love for his girl while as far as we know Tohru has never done more than elementary-school teasing. Problem is, despite his physical remoteness to the story we know more about Kou than we know about Tohru. We know Tohru mostly as a symbolic figure at this point - and very little of his personal life or feelings. Maybe he's already been engaged for all we know, or maybe he sleeps with two women every weekend and then tosses them aside. We really have no idea - all I'm doing and all anyone can do is project based on what behavior we see on-screen. So far, they haven't given us anything else.
And don't forget all those babies he might stealing away to mix in with the tuesday night special! *

*Not white knighting. But I AM a bit amused how many possible background variations for Tohru you have.
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Old 2011-06-01, 16:25   Link #152
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Indeed, though, any of them could be true - we just don't know. It almost seems as if Tohru has been deliberately set up as a blank-slate that audience members could project their own interpretations onto. That's the point - when you don't have any facts to go on, there's an infinite amount of background variations that could be true.

I can guess - anyone can. I can psychoanalyze based on his behavior (and indeed I have ) but your guess is as good as mine.
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Old 2011-06-01, 17:40   Link #153
.x.crii.x.
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Anybody here read the HanaIro manga? xDD

There´s a great TooruxOhana moment in chapter 3.

Here:

http://www.mangareader.net/hanasaku-iroha/3/29
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Old 2011-06-01, 17:42   Link #154
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I read it just now! and then I hoped someone at the forum read it too. Such a cute moment and it made my crappy day a bit better. Too bad Ohana thought of Ko during the time when she was getting teased... TT.TT
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Old 2011-06-01, 17:45   Link #155
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I read it just now! Whoo, I had hoped someone had read it too. xD But too bad that Ohana thought of Ko at the time. o3o Hopefully the anime will turn out different than the manga. It seems to be that way.
Or, the manga-ka has the inside knowledge that Ohana will end up with Kou...
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Old 2011-06-01, 17:47   Link #156
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Pfft, well it kind of makes sense that Ohana would think of Ko, I mean...the guy did confess to Ohana two days prior to that incident. :P

But I think its great how flustered Ohana and Tooru both were. xD And Tomoe telling them they looked cute together was great. xD

Plus, Tooru being flustered was so cute. <3

EDIT: Holy crap, I just realized it wasn't Tomoe who said "I think you look cute together." It was Nako. xDD Burn Minko, buuuurn. lol jk. XD;;
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Old 2011-06-01, 18:13   Link #157
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Anybody here read the HanaIro manga? xDD

There´s a great TooruxOhana moment in chapter 3.

Here:

http://www.mangareader.net/hanasaku-iroha/3/29

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugarless Ocean View Post
I read it just now! and then I hoped someone at the forum read it too. Such a cute moment and it made my crappy day a bit better. Too bad Ohana thought of Ko during the time when she was getting teased... TT.TT
That was adorable. But manga and anime adaptations don't always turn out to have the same pairing as the original. I like Tooru/Ohana but I'm going to try to sit back and enjoy the ride. I kind of like the idea that we might get majorly trolled at the end of the series. Ren-san as a dark horse? Anyone? Anyone? *crickets*
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Old 2011-06-01, 18:14   Link #158
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I think I like the anime better though. xD Not because of the Ohana thinking of Ko thing but because the manga is less detailed. The manga didn't introduce the other characters like the anime did and I don't really like how everyone in the manga looks like a chibi. It's cute but makes me think that the manga-kas are too lazy to draw actual, detailed faces. :/

EDIT: Btw, my favorite line was, "A chef and a waitress would make a great couple!" XD
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Old 2011-06-01, 18:50   Link #159
.x.crii.x.
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RenxOhana??

Hanashi, -puts hands on your shoulders- I know age is just a number. I really do and I also know that love knows no age. But no...just no. -shakes head apologetically-

BTW, I found it really funny how in the anime Ohana is this great ass cook and in the manga...well...I bet even my 9 year old sister could cook better. xD;;
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Old 2011-06-01, 19:02   Link #160
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^The food still tasted good but just didn't look appealing xD

I think there's a thread for this no? We should probably move the convo there.
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