AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Ore no Imouto

Notices

View Poll Results: Ore no Imouto - Episode 15 (TRUE ROUTE - END) Rating
Perfect 10 33 32.04%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 21 20.39%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 14 13.59%
7 out of 10 : Good 19 18.45%
6 out of 10 : Average 9 8.74%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 0.97%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 3 2.91%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 3 2.91%
Voters: 103. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2011-06-01, 14:55   Link #61
sayde
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005

^^That's what I'd call a win. The rest of the episode felt rather "meh" compared to that.
sayde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-06-01, 14:58   Link #62
Kyuu
=^^=
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: 42 10' N (Latitude) 87 33' W (Longitude)
Age: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by sayde View Post

^^That's what I'd call a win. The rest of the episode felt rather "meh" compared to that.
HHHHHNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG

(again for re-emphasis) XD
Kyuu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-06-01, 15:02   Link #63
Zeroryoko1974
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Send a message via AIM to Zeroryoko1974 Send a message via Yahoo to Zeroryoko1974
Kirino was less of a bitch then in the series. Would still have been fine if we never saw her again. Show was much better when she was gone.
__________________
Zeroryoko1974 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-06-01, 15:02   Link #64
Guardian Enzo
Seishu's Ace
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Kagurazaka, Tokyo
Quote:
Originally Posted by serenade_beta View Post
Mm... It didn't work for me. I don't know, just didn't feel anything from the episode, assuming it was supposed to be a good story.
Mainly because the climax kind of felt... rushed? Kyousuke feels lonely so he goes and drags his sister back from America. That's it. Not that exciting. Doesn't help that what fuels this last development is that punching bag's terrible obsession with his sister.
And then, at the end, there was a mysterious jump by the girls. "Yay!"...?


Overall, it was okay, but the stuff that focused on Kirino kind of felt lacking. Opinion of the general show didn't change, so no need for the next final impressions thread for me...
I sadly have to say I agree. I leave the series with good feelings, but in many ways it felt as if the finale were a big "never mind" to the events of 13-14. It was as if all that character development never happened.

Sad fact is, I liked everyone in the main cast - most obviously Kyousuke and Kuroneko - better when Kirino wasn't around. I wasn't impressed with Kirino's behavior at the end, and I wasn't impressed with Kyou's reaction to Kuroneko's confession. It was obvious that Kirino had to come back, but to simply have things reset to the way they were before she left leaves me profoundly unsatisfied.
Guardian Enzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-06-01, 15:43   Link #65
larethian
幸せ過ぎ~♥
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
There was some original stuff and some stuff stripped. Mostly faithful though.

Notable stuff (or trivials maybe ):
1. I don't remember the Saori phone conversation, but the adaptation was wrong in a way, since Saori in her Ojou clothes will never use Ninja-speak.
2. A few frames of Dad original scenes.
3. Kirino was supposed to be not feeling too well (though it was not explicitly clear whether she was sick); no mention of throwing away of trophies
4. Cab driver in US is a black hunk.
5. Residence of Kirino different
6. Room layout different
7. No Sis x Sis eroge play in which Kyousuke wanted to choose Rinko's route and some dere reactions from Kirino.
8. Kirino actually uses an iPhone.
9. No Kurara event.
10. As someone mentioned, this is not K-on
11. And finally, Kyousuke's failure in this episode was partially attributed to the cut out monologue.

Despite knowing that this is only about half the intended story of the author, the ending was strangely unsatisfying.
__________________
larethian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-06-01, 15:58   Link #66
relentlessflame
 
*Administrator
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
I sadly have to say I agree. I leave the series with good feelings, but in many ways it felt as if the finale were a big "never mind" to the events of 13-14. It was as if all that character development never happened.
I can't really agree with this point specifically. Much of the character development (fleshing out of the personality, motivations, and inner-workings of the characters) in episodes 13 and 14 was pointing back to Kirino and her importance to Kyousuke and the other members of the cast. (Kyousuke admitting he missed her and was originally trying to replace her, Kuroneko admitting that she gained a valuable perspective from her and it inspired her to try harder, etc.) I think part of the point, in terms of character development, was a bit of a "you don't know what you had 'till it's gone" sort of thing. So having her come back here actually completes and addresses these developments and closes the circle on them (and on the rest of the show).

Now what it does do is throw a potential wrench in some of the relationship developments, and means that things can't as-easily continue along the path they might have been trending if Kirino had stayed in America. But in a sense, because of the aforementioned character development, this only forces to the surface something that was already there behind-the-scenes anyway. Kirino was always going to come back eventually, and it was clear (over all these past few episodes) that Kyousuke could not wipe her out of his mind. But the relationship development with Kuroneko in the meantime has -- if you want to look at it this way -- helped her even the playing field in terms of the closeness she has to Kyousuke. So I suppose you could say that the "battle" can now begin (again, if you want to look at it that way).

At the end of the day, a story where the titular heroine gets written out of the show and the protagonist ends up with someone else might be satisfying at some level, but at least to me it feels like a bit of a "cheat" and unsatisfying (like winning on a technicality?). If Kuroneko is eventually going to win Kyousuke's affection, I'd rather she does it when all parties are present; it seems more satisfying and has more potential to make the story feel well-rounded and complete -- at least to me. So although I really did enjoy these last few episodes as well (had some really great Kuroneko scenes), the story doesn't feel like it's "on hold" anymore. (Well, except that it is for the anime unless we get another season. )
__________________
[...]
relentlessflame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-06-01, 16:00   Link #67
kaigan
Segmentation fault
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by larethian View Post
There was some original stuff and some stuff stripped. Mostly faithful though.

Notable stuff (or trivials maybe ):
1. I don't remember the Saori phone conversation, but the adaptation was wrong in a way, since Saori in her Ojou clothes will never use Ninja-speak.
2. A few frames of Dad original scenes.
3. Kirino was supposed to be not feeling too well (though it was not explicitly clear whether she was sick); no mention of throwing away of trophies
4. Cab driver in US is a black hunk.
5. Residence of Kirino different
6. Room layout different
7. No Sis x Sis eroge play in which Kyousuke wanted to choose Rinko's route and some dere reactions from Kirino.
8. Kirino actually uses an iPhone.
9. No Kurara event.
10. As someone mentioned, this is not K-on
11. And finally, Kyousuke's failure in this episode was partially attributed to the cut out monologue.

Despite knowing that this is only about half the intended story of the author, the ending was strangely unsatisfying.
i think that there is supposedly also a teen fashion mag where ayase was featured, but i maybe be wrong.

about the meruru movie, the roadshow will begin on 2012.7.28. would this the date for second season?
kaigan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-06-01, 16:05   Link #68
Kanon
Kana Hanazawa ♥
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: France
Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Much to people's surprise here I bet, I didn't hate the episode. I was in fact going to even give it as high as an 8, maybe even 9 until Kyousuke broke down in tears. Yes, my problems with the episode had nothing to do with Kirino. In fact, my problems this episode are sorely directed at Kyousuke.

First and foremost, I understand the man has been trying to kid himself this whole time that he doesn't miss his sister and yada yada. However, where did all this pent up frustration come from? Maybe this is due to some serious pacing issues, but I never really got the impression that he was THAT lonely. He was having some genuinely good moments hanging out with Kuroneko in the last few episodes and was using her in a sense as a replacement for all the time he squandered pandering to his often very ungrateful sister.

I don't know. As someone who has a sibling, I didn't become that emotional or lonely just because of the eventual separation due to things like college. Unless this anime is going for some sort of incestual relationship (Which I still have to deny at all costs for my sanity, but really I don't get the impression that the story is going end up there). That's why I find it hard to believe that Kyousuke would actually break down in tears for someone whom really, just doesn't treat him that well. Not to mention she left in the first place without even saying a word.

Really, I just don't understand. Unless I interpret this relationship romantically, it comes off as overly melodramatic how they portrayed the scene. Again, I had no problems with Kirino herself. She was actually likable in this episode. I know sounds weird huh? Honestly, if this is how they portrayed her more often than not, I wouldn't have come so revolted with her in the previous episodes. Super bitch wasn't present here.

Kyousuke further criminalize himself this episode with the Kuronkeo scene. He didn't give her a fucknig answer? Are you frickne kidding me?!!!?

To paraphrase Senjogahara from Bakemonogatari, "I hate unclear relationships." It provides bad drama. It's annoying. It's the sort of plot I hate. They better not dance around this issue too long. Kyousuke lost some serious points with me here.

Other than that though, the episode was fairly solid. There were some genuine good moments. The narrative structure of these last episodes was consistent and led to an actual conclusion. Not bad.
My thoughts exactly. Much to my own surprise, this episode's problem wasn't Kirino's return, but Kyousuke himself. I thought the episode was excellent up until the scene where Kyousuke spilled his guts to Kirino - it started with a rather funny scene showing Kuroneko and Sena's (drasctically different) reactions to the criticism their game received ("can you please stop getting mad over things on the internet?"), followed by a scene showcasing their friendship and how far Kuroneko has gotten in only four episodes. And then, there was that amazing Kyousuke x Kuroneko scene... it was so good I wondered if I was watching the right series. There have never been such well written dialogues in this anime until now.

Knowing that Kuroneko's part was over and that Kirino's return was imminent, I started bracing myself... but the Kirino who came back wasn't the Kirino I hated so much anymore. She even treated Kyousuke like a human being rather than a sanbag; my god! Her failure in America made her grow a lot. What she needed to become a decent character was to get kicked off her pedestal. She used to be little miss perfect (bitch), now she's simply human. I expect her to retain her some of her cheekiness, but I'm sure she won't be as insufferable as she used to be. At least, I sure hope so. The amount of emotions she displayed were just right and were understandable.

And then... Kyousuke's turn to "confess" came. Remember the good dialogues I mentioned earlier? Gone. After breaking into tears (...), he spouted some of the most stupid line in this anime (which is saying a lot). "I'm so lonely without you I can't take it anymore!" Uh... siscon much? Why does he miss so much anwyay? The daily kicks in the balls and punches in the face? "If you don't come back, I might die" (for some reason, Bruno Mars' terrible song popped into my mind, which obviously didn't help) Did he seriously just say such a pathetic line to his little sister? Really? I have no words. He's not a simple siscon, he's madly in love with his little sister. That is the only reasonable explanation for this embarrassing outburst.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhystic View Post
After watching this episode, I really can't see the story going the incestuous route. I never really got the impression that Kyosuke had anything other than overprotective siscon feelings for Kirino. If it does go that route, it'd be a really strange shift in the overall tone of the series.
Funny, that's the exact opposite for me. I thougth there was no chance of it going for the incest route until now, but this episode completely changed my mind. Kyousuke's feelings go way beyond that of an overprotective older brother.
__________________
Mikan & Yami
Kanon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-06-01, 16:10   Link #69
Guardian Enzo
Seishu's Ace
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Kagurazaka, Tokyo
Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
I can't really agree with this point specifically. Much of the character development (fleshing out of the personality, motivations, and inner-workings of the characters) in episodes 13 and 14 was pointing back to Kirino and her importance to Kyousuke and the other members of the cast. (Kyousuke admitting he missed her and was originally trying to replace her, Kuroneko admitting that she gained a valuable perspective from her and it inspired her to try harder, etc.) I think part of the point, in terms of character development, was a bit of a "you don't know what you had 'till it's gone" sort of thing. So having her come back here actually completes and addresses these developments and closes the circle on them (and on the rest of the show).

Now what it does do is throw a potential wrench in some of the relationship developments, and means that things can't as-easily continue along the path they might have been trending if Kirino had stayed in America. But in a sense, because of the aforementioned character development, this only forces to the surface something that was already there behind-the-scenes anyway. Kirino was always going to come back eventually, and it was clear (over all these past few episodes) that Kyousuke could not wipe her out of his mind. But the relationship development with Kuroneko in the meantime has -- if you want to look at it this way -- helped her even the playing field in terms of the closeness she has to Kyousuke. So I suppose you could say that the "battle" can now begin (again, if you want to look at it that way).

At the end of the day, a story where the titular heroine gets written out of the show and the protagonist ends up with someone else might be satisfying at some level, but at least to me it feels like a bit of a "cheat" and unsatisfying (like winning on a technicality?). If Kuroneko is eventually going to win Kyousuke's affection, I'd rather she does it when all parties are present; it seems more satisfying and has more potential to make the story feel well-rounded and complete -- at least to me.
There was a fundamental paradox standing in the way of this finale's success, and I wasn't sure if the anime staff were going to be able to figure out how to solve it - and they didn't, as it turns out. There was no question in my mind Kirino had to return for the finale. Even though Kyousuke is the main character, she's the pivot point - the nexus around which everyone else revolves. All of the characters change and evolve largely in response to Kirino, most especially Kyou.

I didn't think much of Kyousuke in this episode altogether. I thought his reaction to Kuroneko's confession was first clueless, then insensitive. She pours out her heart to you (though it should already have been obvious) and your response is "I'm off to see Kirino - thanks!" It turns out, I guess, that Kyousuke was the pathetic siscon Kirino would have had us believe all along. I didn't want to think that about him and that's not the Kyouske we saw for the DVD-only eps (and indeed much of the TV ones) but based on his behavior here, she was right all along. There's no other way to explain his pathetic performance in humiliating himself by begging her to come home because he was lonely. I want to believe he put that out there as an act, knowing she wouldn't come home for any other reason - but the evidence doesn't back that up.

Here's another problem. Any reasonable person would, in Kyou's place, certainly prefer to be with Kuroneko over Kirino. It's not bloody incest, for one. Plus, Kurnoeko treats him far better. She's a nicer, more understanding person. She's simply a better character - the vast majority of the fanbase sees it this way, and it's a somewhat difficult reality for the series to deal with. Only a pretty pathetic guy would choose to lust after his abusive little sister rather than stay with Kuroneko - or even Manami. So what choice does that leave us in deciding what we think of Kyou, based on the last episode? Again, it's as if all the character development we've seen is flushed away - Kirino is back to playing eroge and treating him like crap, and he's back to craving it. And we're left with the very likely conclusion that he's an actual siscon for a bonus. That's kind of a depressing end, isn't it?

One could argue, I suppose, that Kirino showed the tiniest bit of character growth. She did thank Kyousuke, at least. She did at least realize that she was dependent on her sexual fantasy life to an unhealthy degree, even if she didn't end up following through on that belief in the end. But in the end, I hated to see everyone fall right back into their old roles - only worse in Kyousuke's case, because in addition to being a beaten dog it now looks like he really is a siscon as well. Again, I foresaw this problem - Kirino had to come back, no doubt about it - but couldn't foresee what the solution would be. Turned out, there wasn't one - at least not one we were treated to in this episode.

This certainly looks better as a season finale than a series finale - maybe we get some additional context for Kyousuke's pathetic backsliding. Maybe the battle really is joined, now - though why there should even be a battle is another question. As great as the BD/DVD sales have been and as much is still happening with the property it's hard to imagine there won't be another season, or at least OVAs. I sure hope so - I really love the show, and I'd like it to end on a better note.
Guardian Enzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-06-01, 16:49   Link #70
Saturn Beaver
Home of Silent Prayer
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Send a message via MSN to Saturn Beaver
Like many others have said, I actually like the Kirino in this episode (being off-screen in America has done wonders for her character) but it's Kyousuke I can't stand right now. Really, I guess that's my biggest problem with Kirino's return; not the fact that she's back (if she continues behaving this way, I really don't mind at all) but somehow Kyousuke is always at his very worst when he's with Kirino.

And that's the problem; he says he's miserable without her, but (maybe it's the adaptation's fault, I don't know) the last two episodes shows him being mostly okay, actually. He's fine in school, maintain relationships and even getting new friends, all we see is some sighing signifying that he misses her. And that's fine, they're family after all and this is the first time she's been away for so long, not to mention she doesn't contact him at all. But why did he all of a sudden turn into this needy, pathetic siscon exactly like what Kirino always derides him as?

I said I don't see it before, but now I can clearly see the siscon ending. Not that I like it, but it's really so obvious. Simply looking at the words Kyousuke said, it's pretty much a love confession already. I'm sorry for those who says that sibling love can be as strong as romantic love, but saying 'I'd die without you' is too much even for romantic love, that's literally the folly of Romeo and Juliet right there. I'm currently studying abroad for a few years already, first time leaving my family and little brother back home. Do I miss them? Very. Do I want to meet them soon? Definitely. But in no way will I cry and beg to be with them forever. Just....urgh.

There are some other things that bothers me too, liek that horrible, out of place jump in the end (seriously, what??) and that the Kosaka household can't get in touch with Kirino. Sure, she's blocking her calls, but there's other methods too. You can call her school, her dormitory manager, some other contacts you have in the U.S...because if all the contact you have is her phone number, then frankly you're a total moron.

So yeah, that was quite a ride. I would never suspect though, that not only did my hated character redeems herself somewhat in the end, but it turns out what was once my favorite character at the beginning becomes the worst at the end. And for my general impression...put simply, for me this series excels when it focuses less on the drama and more on the comedy. Last two episodes shines because the simple drama of Kuroneko not getting along in school is buried under the total fun of Sena and their interactions together. It shines in the absence of Kirino not just because she's a total bitch (again, she's much improving!) but because the melodrama is always centered around her, and often they don't manage to pull it off well, just seems rushed or resolved simply by having Kyousuke be the pathetic sandbag.

All in all, I won't say it's a total waste of time watching it though. I'm definitely invested in it, and there's definitely moments where I really enjoy this show (many thanks to Kuroneko). I very much doubt this is the series finale, the LN is still ongoing and both are very popular in sales as well. So I'll definitely watch the 2nd season when it comes, but with lowered expectations especially when it surrounds the Kosaka siblings, and just enjoy the humor and the side characters.
__________________
Saturn Beaver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-06-01, 17:26   Link #71
Archon_Wing
Hater
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Being totally ebillll
Age: 30
Send a message via MSN to Archon_Wing
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post

Here's another problem. Any reasonable person would, in Kyou's place, certainly prefer to be with Kuroneko over Kirino. It's not bloody incest, for one.
Indeed. That role has been fulfilled by Yosuga no Sora, and I think I've had enough of that. In any case, just because you care for another family member, doesn't mean you wanna

Hell, even Kirino thinks it's pathetic. Keep your eroges and life separate.
__________________
What appears to be a moment for the helper feels like an eternity to the helpee.
Avatar and Sig courtesy of TheEroKing
Guild Wars 2 SN: ArchonWing.9480 (Stormbluff Isle)
MyAnimeList || Reviews
Archon_Wing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-06-01, 17:28   Link #72
Maugomale
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
Here's another problem. Any reasonable person would, in Kyou's place, certainly prefer to be with Kuroneko over Kirino. It's not bloody incest, for one. Plus, Kurnoeko treats him far better. She's a nicer, more understanding person. She's simply a better character - the vast majority of the fanbase sees it this way, and it's a somewhat difficult reality for the series to deal with. Only a pretty pathetic guy would choose to lust after his abusive little sister rather than stay with Kuroneko - or even Manami
Stop being so goddamn biased. There are people who can enjoy Kirino for what she is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Hell, even Kirino thinks it's pathetic. Keep your eroges and life separate.
Are you absolutely sure? Seems to me like all the eroges she plays are a way of projecting the feelings she has for Kyousuke.
Maugomale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-06-01, 17:29   Link #73
Archon_Wing
Hater
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Being totally ebillll
Age: 30
Send a message via MSN to Archon_Wing
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maugomale View Post
Are you absolutely sure? Seems to me like all the eroges she plays are a way of projecting the feelings she has for Kyousuke.
Nah, if we went by that, it more implies that she's actually a lesbian. Little sisters after all.

But on a serious note, fantasies are just fantasies. Surely most people are never gonna do what they see in most games/porn/whatnot. But it doesn't make it any less valid.
__________________
What appears to be a moment for the helper feels like an eternity to the helpee.
Avatar and Sig courtesy of TheEroKing
Guild Wars 2 SN: ArchonWing.9480 (Stormbluff Isle)
MyAnimeList || Reviews
Archon_Wing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-06-01, 17:31   Link #74
Flower
Purrrfectly cuddly! ^^
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Yamoto, Akiba, Log Horizon Guild Hall
I dunno ... Kyou REALLY strikes me as fitting into the model of a classic male anime/manga protagonist of being incredibly (and I really mean INCREDIBLY) *dense* when it comes to the opposite sex. A "late bloomer" if you will.

Never really struck me that he looked at any other RL woman around his age in a way that would lead to anything resembling a "serious" relationship.

Whether one thinks Kyou's denseness believable is another issue, of course - but for me he is just another case of a incredibly dense young male lead character in this general genre.

I wonder if he comes across like this in the novels as well?
__________________
Flower is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-06-01, 17:47   Link #75
Guardian Enzo
Seishu's Ace
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Kagurazaka, Tokyo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maugomale View Post
Stop being so goddamn biased. There are people who can enjoy Kirino for what she is.
I must have missed the memo where enjoying someone as a person means SLEEPING WITH YOUR DAMN SISTER.
Guardian Enzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-06-01, 18:12   Link #76
ars89
One-Eyed Dragon
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: NJ, USA
Age: 25
Nice to see Akagi and Kuroneko getting along well now. Best scene easily was Kuroneko kissing Kyousuke on the cheek. Have to give her some credit for swallowing a bit of her pride. She did state her true feelings, but i feel like if he didn't look so down we would have had an even better moment.

I love he father he's awesome. One little text sent him over the roof. At least he was able to acknowledge Kyousuke and allowed him to go. The mother was even shocked.

Of course the first thing he says is let's play eroge. Well his confession was able to bring her back. Also it was able to beat her roommate for once.

Felt bad for Ayase when she was about to tear up from not hearing from her. Also why do they have to tease us with that mirror-only image of Saori.

Well i hope a 2nd season is in the works.
__________________
ars89 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-06-01, 18:36   Link #77
relentlessflame
 
*Administrator
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
I didn't think much of Kyousuke in this episode altogether. I thought his reaction to Kuroneko's confession was first clueless, then insensitive. She pours out her heart to you (though it should already have been obvious) and your response is "I'm off to see Kirino - thanks!"
Well, I already said before that I thought Kyousuke's reactions this episode weren't too stellar, but that particular time I don't blame only him. Kuroneko noticed that he was distraught before she went into her confession, and Kirino is valued by both him and her. So she could have made the choice to put the confession on hold and deal with it later after this Kirino deal was finished. Plus, she also pushed him to go deal with Kirino, so his response is not unexpected. Given the character we've been presented with in the story, it's not like he could just stop caring about Kirino. And I think that's pretty important to understanding/appreciating (not necessarily agreeing-with or enjoying the possible implications of) what was shown. It seems to me that Kuroneko still chose to go forward with the partial confession anyway because Kirino is coming back, even knowing it wouldn't have the desired effect given what was on Kyousuke's mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
Here's another problem. Any reasonable person would, in Kyou's place, certainly prefer to be with Kuroneko over Kirino. It's not bloody incest, for one. Plus, Kurnoeko treats him far better. She's a nicer, more understanding person. She's simply a better character - the vast majority of the fanbase sees it this way, and it's a somewhat difficult reality for the series to deal with. [...]
And yes, that's the real issue you're driving at here. You don't like/understand how/why he continues to value Kirino so much for a whole list of not-invalid reasons. But I don't think we can only judge Kyousuke (and the show by proxy) simply because he doesn't do what we might do. This is why my comment before wasn't suggesting that this was the best choice for Kyousuke to make in my opinion (or the one I would have made necessarily if I were in his shoes), but I think it was a logical choice for the show (the author) to make given what we've been shown and told about these characters so far. This ending doesn't negate the character development shown, even if the characters (specifically Kyousuke) may be developing in a way that you don't personally agree with. I think there are still too many open questions to say for sure.

I think Kyousuke and Kirino's "feelings" for each other (such as they are) will always be nebulous and complicated. No matter how they develop the story, I have a hard time imagining that it could be neatly categorized as to what is "romantic love", what is "sibling love", and what is something else entirely. There are so many different elements at play. I think the ambiguity is part of what makes the story interesting, and deliberately hard to figure out. It makes viewers anxious that things may not turn out the way they want, and is a bit of a puzzle that everyone's trying to piece together. Sometimes I think people get more anxious about the way they think the puzzle will come together than what has actually happened so far. But because of all this, I'm sure that no matter what ending the author arrives at, it will cause much discussion and controversy.
__________________
[...]
relentlessflame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-06-01, 18:45   Link #78
Guardian Enzo
Seishu's Ace
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Kagurazaka, Tokyo
We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I think Kyousuke had shown considerable personal growth over the course of the series, and what happened in the finale amounts to a serious regression of character.

Again, I don't see why this has to be a questioning of valuing Kirino. It's not about valuing - it's about right and wrong, and self-respect. It's perfectly fine for Kyousuke to value and love and honor his little sister, as any brother should. But that's not the issue - the issue is him ingratiating himself to her, despite being treated like dirt. The issue is him allowing her to behave the way she does and proving, frankly, that he seems to like it. And the issue is with his forgoing relationships with two perfectly acceptable (and one spectacular, in my admittedly biased view) romantic options because of what appears to be sexual interest in his sister. Why is it so hard to make a value judgment on that? It's incest - and this isn't some throwaway comedy. For all it's wackiness it's actually a pretty smart and complex story. Aren't we allowed to say that for Kyouske, incest is a pretty bad idea?
Guardian Enzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-06-01, 19:07   Link #79
relentlessflame
 
*Administrator
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I think Kyousuke had shown considerable personal growth over the course of the series, and what happened in the finale amounts to a serious regression of character.
Well, if you want me to understand your argument, you would probably have to qualify/describe the nature of the personal growth you think we were shown and how it was negated by his choice here. It (still?) isn't very clear to me how this episode negates anything that was shown about Kyousuke's character, values, or opinions. I don't think you can say that his "personal growth" was that he was forced away from his sister and that was somehow making him better off, because that's not what Kyousuke himself seems to think about it (ref: Episodes 11-15). Character development is helping us understand what the character thinks is important, not whether the character is doing things that we think are ultimately best for him. (This is why even villains need character development; we're not necessarily going to think what they're doing is right, but we'll at least understand a little bit of what they think and why they think that way.)

I think you're saying that over the last few episodes he was heading down a path you think is better for him, and now he's made a decision that prevents him from continuing down that path. And my point is just that he's only being consistent to what he's said and shown before. So we can agree to disagree... but I think we're sort of saying two different things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
Again, I don't see why this has to be a questioning of valuing Kirino. It's not about valuing - it's about right and wrong, and self-respect. It's perfectly fine for Kyousuke to value and love and honor his little sister, as any brother should. But that's not the issue - the issue is him ingratiating himself to her, despite being treated like dirt. The issue is him allowing her to behave the way she does and proving, frankly, that he seems to like it. And the issue is with his forgoing relationships with two perfectly acceptable (and one spectacular, in my admittedly biased view) romantic options because of what appears to be sexual interest in his sister. Why is it so hard to make a value judgment on that? It's incest - and this isn't some throwaway comedy. For all it's wackiness it's actually a pretty smart and complex story. Aren't we allowed to say that for Kyouske, incest is a pretty bad idea?
Well, you can say whatever you'd like, of course. But I don't think the show is presenting this whole situation in a way that's nearly so "black and white", even if the ultimate moral issue (if they were to go all the way) is a black-and-white issue to you. He hasn't forgone relationships with anyone yet, but he seems to have some baggage that causes him to immediately dismiss the idea that any girl could love him. He always thinks the girls are joking or messing with him. But he knows that he cares for people, and that caring inspires him to act. He also seems to feel some sort of debt to Kirino, which he perceives as his responsibility as a brother (but he is starting to understand may be something more). But what does it all mean...???

Anyway, I get that you're basically saying "Stay away from that Kirino, Kyousuke, because she treats you badly and you've got way better options out there." And I'm not necessarily either agreeing or disagreeing with that, but I don't think it would make any sense for Kyousuke to come to that conclusion right now without going severely out-of-character. I wouldn't feel better if Kyousuke went out of character even if they arrive at a destination I like; the journey is more important than the destination to me. (Of course I get that everyone feels differently. Opinions...)
__________________
[...]
relentlessflame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-06-01, 19:09   Link #80
Reckoner
Bittersweet Distractor
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
I think the ambiguity is part of what makes the story interesting, and deliberately hard to figure out. It makes viewers anxious that things may not turn out the way they want, and is a bit of a puzzle that everyone's trying to piece together. Sometimes I think people get more anxious about the way they think the puzzle will come together than what has actually happened so far. But because of all this, I'm sure that no matter what ending the author arrives at, it will cause much discussion and controversy.
Enzo said everything else I would've wanted to say but I must comment on this. This sort of ambiguity amounts to nothing more than a cocktease. I don't enjoy this particular kind of drama because it relies solely on simple misunderstandings and the characters not being clear about what they want (Specifically Kyousuke being the worst offender here).

It's unbefitting of a story that has much better and complicated themes present. I see this as being as bad as the first half of Shana II. The sort of story that is completely dependent on characters being hit with the stupid stick is just painful to watch.

The author/writer is basically leading its audience with a carrot on the stick, "Hey maybe you'll get the ending you want here!" May be effective and getting the audience to tune in, but it is completely ineffective at telling a coherent story.
Reckoner is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 14:53.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.