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Old 2011-06-06, 05:23   Link #641
Ceral
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
This point of concern is still quite weird in my books: why would a single aspect of a story/execution warrant such expectation?
I mean, you can't call Muv Luv Alternative as a "shonen" VN because of the presence of mecha, can you?
Likewise, I don't get why you would expect them to try appealing people for "mainstream" stuff, while we have Romeo and Ryukishi being nothing close to "mainstream" stuff, nor why they would make a VN, which is nothing but a niche market.
I never said Romeo or Ryukishi were into making "mainstream" stuff. I am not saying that Muv Luv is shonen because it has Mecha in it, I am not saying that Rewrite is shonen because of the 2nd OP. But I am saying that the 2nd OP is shonen! I am just pointing to the 2nd OP, and despite it just being one video, it is an OP video, OP videos are usually a microcosm of the entire game. It would be ridiculous to not think that there is a possibilty that this VN will end up being similar in feel to that OP. I am hoping otherwise and what I have been trying to say all along is that I feel it is strange that you guys like that 2nd OP, because it doesn't represent the things I would get hyped up about from a VN from Key.


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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
It has a lot of fun stuff but also -brawling- things that could be your shonen fair any day of the week. If we make a LB animated OP, they potentially could pull the LB fighting stuff, baseball and Saya sequences, and that would "look like some shonen franchise" despite it isn't anything close.
Yea, well if they wanted to make an animated sequence that would be the right material to choose, but obviously they never made such a video. I don't think they would have succeeded in hyping up their fans with such a video in such a case either. From my point of view, such a video would only be useful in order to soften up the backlash they'll get when their fans learn their new release is mostly just about dudes brawling it out. (This is sort of the message I get from the 2nd OP. I'm sorry but Key games aren't known for anything similar to a story revolving around most of their characters having superpowers and fighting off evil. I know that Mai's arc and part of Air's Summer arc has some fighting, but the fighting itself is hardly such a large part of the story to warrant making an OP based on it. That's what I feel. I mean even in the anime OPs, you dont' even get a single scene of Mai or Ryuuya slashing their blade.)


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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
I will stop you right there: there is a huge difference between the author idea, and the way how an anime studio execute it. You have to realize that an anime is bound to budget restraints, which is heavily dictated by producers as well. Maeda is known to have a liking for bands (which is natural considering his other hobbies) and it is quite natural to exploit a portion of the story for marketing purpose. Likewise, fleshing out actions may appeal more people in general for a short series. And even so, people noticed how dichotomic AB was: action/comedy were stuffed a way too tightly with some "nakige" elements which made the series looks like in identity crisis. That would have happened to Clannad etc if the animation studio were to do jack in transitions, composition etc.
AB had ENTIRE episodes dedicated to blasting through to their underground base. With the majority of these episodes dedicated to watching characters get picked off one by one in a comedic way, without much, if any concern to character development or dialogue. I would never expect an anime based on a VN from past Key works to have entire episodes dedicated to farcical action scenes, no matter how short their series was.

Right, they have a budget, and they want to get people to buy their anime, but last I checked Air/Kanon/Clannad Animes were among the best selling Anime of their respective years. They didn't have to water down the plot and add in more action sequences, but they chose to. I think Maeda was interesting in making AB the way it was. I didn't like it though, and even if they made it 24 episodes long and had a 4 episode arc on Yuri, I don't even know that that would have saved it for me. As long as they had those plot twists, and those episodes dedicated entirely to action, that show would have been a tough sale for me as coming anything close to Air/Kanon/Clannad animes.
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Old 2011-06-06, 07:01   Link #642
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Originally Posted by Ceral View Post
But I am saying that the 2nd OP is shonen!
Is this actually shonen or 'Fate/Stay Night is shonen' shonen?

Quote:
AB had ENTIRE episodes dedicated to blasting through to their underground base. With the majority of these episodes dedicated to watching characters get picked off one by one in a comedic way, without much, if any concern to character development or dialogue
TWO

TWO EPISODES

BOTH WERE PARODIES

And the first was essentially a big character introduction.
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Old 2011-06-06, 09:27   Link #643
Ceral
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Originally Posted by Jao View Post

BOTH WERE PARODIES
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Originally Posted by Ceral View Post
AB had ENTIRE episodes dedicated to blasting through to their underground base. With the majority of these episodes dedicated to watching characters get picked off one by one in a comedic way...
Is there an echo in the room? Sorry I didn't mean to pick on AB as much as I have. I'm not bashing it to be an ass either, if you look at the recommendations for it on anidb, you'll see that my view that AB is really cliched is actually quite prevalent.

I'm not much of a FSN fan, I tried it before so I know it's premise. I watched the OP on youtube just now and I don't think it screams out Shonen as much as the 2nd OP does. But what is Shonen is very subjective, ultimately it's just my opinion that the 2nd OP looks like Shonen, based on works in the past I've seen, so don't let it screw with ya too much. My main point is that if you were to imagine a VN based on the 2nd OP, most people would think of something drastically different than Key's main titles so far. Whether it's Shonen or not, even if we got something similar to the "Seinen" FSN in Rewrite I would still venture to bet a lot of Key fans would be upset. The 2nd OP has nothing in common with the style of story-telling that I enjoyed so much from Key's main works. This is just my opinion. What I like isn't even the same thing as what you like. I'm trying to defend what I like and make sure what I like doesn't get turned into something I don't like. Forget about authors and past companies and outside works, I've come to expect something certain from Key and that 2nd OP is very very far off from that expectation. I feel like I'm regurgitating things from a few posts back now, I'm only interested in talking about the 2nd OP in any responses....
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Old 2011-06-06, 11:31   Link #644
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Ceral, you're not alone, I saw plenty of people on 4chan's /jp/ worry that Key had lost their special touch just from the second OP.

I think you're right that the 2nd OP wants to appeal to the "we love awesome fights" crowd. Isn't that desirable for Key / Visual Art's? Because they knew that they would have a lot of fights in the second half of Rewrite, they asked White Fox to make them an OP that would boost their sales, and this is what they received. Isn't that what happened? White Fox could have instead tried to sell Rewrite as an epic dark fantasy like Berserk, and plenty of people would have been fooled. But in my personal opinion, the "WSJ fighter" sort of atmosphere should widen the sales more. I would rather ask, with the info that Rewrite's second half has action, how could they possibly not try to market it the way they did?

But if you say that it doesn't seem "original" because of energy swords and dinosaur-like monster hordes, I can't really counter that. The thing about cliches is that people often mistakenly think that great things possess uncliched elements that set them apart. However, upon inspection, there are really so many things that are basically 100% composed of cliches, and it's thoughtful and clever execution that set those things apart. Key is the crowning example of that, they write school life comedy with a "harem" cast, moe characters, and sentimental drama. Before Moon/Kanon actually came out and were played, you couldn't have convinced anyone that Key is unique. Actually, I still can't convince some of my friends that Key is more than just "moeblobs", so screw them! In any case, is it possible Key/Romeo will fail and that energy swords will really just be energy swords? Yes.

On a final note, I can understand comparing Rewrite to AB in order to articulate what you don't want Rewrite's action to be like (I'm 100% in agreement on that) but like other/s here have said, it's not being created in anywhere near the same way.
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Old 2011-06-06, 13:17   Link #645
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I've come to expect something certain from Key and that 2nd OP is very very far off from that expectation.
And why do you think we've been bringing up other examples of Key products all this time? To prove to you that your preconception is wrong. There is no "Key-like" or "not Key-like" trait in their products anymore. The best you can expect when you buy a Key game is that somewhere in there, there is a story that will try to pull at your heartstrings. If there's anything so much as near to a "Key trait" that would be it. But to make that trait as the main formula of their products is something Key hasn't done, like I said, in years. That is why LB may have offended the purists, that's probably why Rewrite will too.

But who cares? People like that are living with their heads in the ground. As previously iterated, Key has been changing up their formula for years now, and if you don't like it, you are free to leave. Rewrite will have shonen elements. And it will be done in a fashion unique to Key's method of presentation. You calling it "not-Key" is silly. And yes, that 2nd OP is definitely representative of the kind of style they are trying to capture, and we are excited because we look forward to see Key's interpretation on it. Whether you approve of it or not. But that doesn't make it any less Key.

Actually, to think that you've come to somehow "Expect" something from Key that they haven't actually delivered for a while now is actually condescending an extent. It would have made more sense if you complained around the time of Tomoyo After or LB, but now after all this time it's actually reflects more of your selfishness than anything else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by myopius
Ceral, you're not alone, I saw plenty of people on 4chan's /jp/ worry that Key had lost their special touch just from the second OP.
Those people should cry more then. Anyone who is complaining that Key has lost their special touch at this point in the game are misguided and delusional. What do you expect from a writing staff that is 2/3rds made up of outsiders to Key and a project that is produced in a way that is significantly different from what they've done in the past? Of course it'll be different!

Does that mean it will be bad? No! Does that mean it's not "Key!" No! Does it mean it'll not be like what they used to be? Probably, we'll see when the game is out.
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Old 2011-06-06, 13:28   Link #646
Ceral
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Thanks Myopius, for addressing all my main points. I guess I need to check out 4chan more often.

Well if they do have a second half full of action, I agree, that's something that they would have to market. Indeed I think they would get more sales by marketing it in such a manner, but if the game turns out to not satisfy the part of their fanbase that's in it for the comedy, romance, peaceful but emotional storyline and not for the action, I think it would hurt them in the long run. Some people might think that the 2nd OP is close to what should be expected from Key, but I think it's a complete 180, and if I'm not satisfied by what I read in the 2nd half, I'm gonna try to yell at Key in whatever Gaijin way I possibly can.

You make a fine counterpoint in a very civil way. Thank you. Indeed every title that's been mentioned has had a lot of cliches. They also do things that I haven't seen before, while still executing the scenes that contain "cliches" in an enjoyable manner. But because of the genres I like at the current time, I would find it hard to appreciate a work with all the action I see in the 2nd OP. Whether it's dark or adult enough to capture most peoples imagination is an argument for another day, and one that I'm gonna keep myself out of. My complaint is that I just don't expect the focus to be on action in a main VN by Key, the climax has always been about the characters and the sentimental drama. How this climax has been achieved in the past has only involved a small amount of action, nowhere near the amount the 2nd OP suggests. I'm not saying something can't be good without some action in it, titles these days seem to have a little bit of everything in them, but there's always a dominant genre to label something by. Air had some action but by no means would you label it as action. The 2nd OP is pretty much writing on the wall that there's gonna be some changes to what genre this VN could be considered as. I'd be relieved if there was so little action that this label wouldn't stick to the title, maybe it's really good anyway, until then we're just wasting time until we can play the game eh.
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Old 2011-06-06, 13:44   Link #647
Ceral
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Originally Posted by winkel View Post
And why do you think we've been bringing up other examples of Key products all this time? To prove to you that your preconception is wrong. There is no "Key-like" or "not Key-like" trait in their products anymore. The best you can expect when you buy a Key game is that somewhere in there, there is a story that will try to pull at your heartstrings. If there's anything so much as near to a "Key trait" that would be it. But to make that trait as the main formula of their products is something Key hasn't done, like I said, in years. That is why LB may have offended the purists, that's probably why Rewrite will too.
What key product says that they're going to deviate so much from what they're going to make that they'd start a VN with action as one of their main genres? I was shown pics of Kud Wafter, Tomoya After, and Planetarian, please, there's no more action in these titles than in any other work. I fail to see why these wouldn't fall under the same category as the games that they were born out of. Key's last game was Kud Wafter, are you seriously going to tell me that Kud Wafter was supposed to be the herald telling me I should be expecting their next big title to be "Half" THAT 2nd OP? Planetarian is so short and "Side-Project-ish" that I wouldn't give much credence to it. You're not arguing with purists, you're arguing with me, so please don't mix up someone elses opinions with mine, and I fail to see Little Busters, which IMO is the last game that you should really consider as one of their "Big Titles" as being that different from Clannad. Some of the themes they focused on changed but not their genres. The 2nd OP would suggest a clear genre shift.

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But who cares? People like that are living with their heads in the ground. As previously iterated, Key has been changing up their formula for years now, and if you don't like it, you are free to leave. Rewrite will have shonen elements. And it will be done in a fashion unique to Key's method of presentation. You calling it "not-Key" is silly. And yes, that 2nd OP is definitely representative of the kind of style they are trying to capture, and we are excited because we look forward to see Key's interpretation on it. Whether you approve of it or not. But that doesn't make it any less Key.

Actually, to think that you've come to somehow "Expect" something from Key that they haven't actually delivered for a while now is actually condescending an extent. It would have made more sense if you complained around the time of Tomoyo After or LB, but now after all this time it's actually reflects more of your selfishness than anything else.

Huh? Are you sure about that? Do you work for Key? What were they trying to represent in their first OP then? That doesn't have any action in it. How about the demo, have you even played the demo? They've kept a lot of what they've had in their main titles. They obviously still have a good game on their hands that uses most of the formulas that they have been using. The 2nd OP is very different though, to say that anything with the Key label has suggested they were going to make something based on that 2nd OP is just plain ignorant.

I am selfish, but that's neither here or there. I didn't complain about Angel Beats, at the time it aired, (Believe it or not) because I treated it as Maedas pet project. They've created some expectations with rewrite, it is one of their flagship bishoujo games, not just a spinoff; They've had an OP and a Demo that had some supernatural themes, stronger than usual, but it was still like their other bishoujo games at their core. You act like LB was so much different than any of their other works, I'm happy if they change the theme of the story, they've done that with every game anyway, is that what you're trying to say? Now if they go away from advancing the story through 95% character dialogue to telling their story through fighting beasts and vampires and I have no idea what else nor do I want to know until I actually play the game for half the game, that's cause to start yelling at Key. The 2nd OP is just like a bad omen.

Last edited by Ceral; 2011-06-06 at 14:22. Reason: Added more to keep from posting too much
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Old 2011-06-06, 14:06   Link #648
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Ceral View Post
You're not arguing with purists, you're arguing with me, and I fail to see Little Busters, which IMO is the last game that you should really consider as one of their "Big Titles" as even having any different genres from Clannad. This 2nd OP is clearly very different.
Little Busters is a completely different game from Clannad. During the Common Route it feels a lot more like a 'generic' eroge, what with the character archetypes and the stronger focus on comedy, and then in the character routes it turns... odd.

It's still a nakige but it's certainly not the same type of game that Kanon and Clannad were.

Furthermore, why are you whining about action? It having action doesn't make it 'shounen' (which is a meaningless buzzword anyway), and there's no indication that just because there will be more action scenes, it won't be a nakige.

The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive... have you seen the SIZE of that script?

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Huh? Are you sure about that? Do you work for Key? What were they trying to represent in their first OP then?
They were trying to fuck with people, obviously. The second OP and second demo only came out after the delay, so it's pretty clear to me that they intended for the sudden shift away from the traditional school-life formula to be a twist.


Basically, what we're trying to say is that you're complaining about a game that isn't even out yet for reasons that don't make sense to anyone.
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Old 2011-06-06, 14:11   Link #649
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceral View Post
I never said Romeo or Ryukishi were into making "mainstream" stuff. I am not saying that Muv Luv is shonen because it has Mecha in it, I am not saying that Rewrite is shonen because of the 2nd OP. But I am saying that the 2nd OP is shonen! I am just pointing to the 2nd OP, and despite it just being one video, it is an OP video, OP videos are usually a microcosm of the entire game. It would be ridiculous to not think that there is a possibilty that this VN will end up being similar in feel to that OP. I am hoping otherwise and what I have been trying to say all along is that I feel it is strange that you guys like that 2nd OP, because it doesn't represent the things I would get hyped up about from a VN from Key.
I never claimed you said that. I've used MLA example to show you that a single aspect of a series is hardly the only factor that can be used to qualify a story to X or Y genre.
Likewise, you never stated the authors were doing mainstream, but you were afraid that Key would do that kind of stuff using fantasy elements, despite these two authors are hardly anything close to that (especially Romeo).

Now, you stated yourself the OP is shonen. Granted, then what is the deal -for now-? That is again judging the book from its cover. I wouldn't really argue that much if it was the only OP, but we got the first OP being the main one, as well as a trial being quite "normal" so to speak. That much doesn't assure it won't turn into a shonen galore. However, the second OP doesn't confirm anything either, except the fact that "action packed content is present", without its predominent ratio or context.

Quote:
Yea, well if they wanted to make an animated sequence that would be the right material to choose, but obviously they never made such a video. I don't think they would have succeeded in hyping up their fans with such a video in such a case either.
Rewrite was stated to be a very special project for them: it marks their 10th anniversary, and it is something imagined by Hinoue. As much as I do not doubt Key is trying to use that opening as an appeal, it is also part of the whole hype they were building due to the circumstances of this project.
Quote:
From my point of view, such a video would only be useful in order to soften up the backlash they'll get when their fans learn their new release is mostly just about dudes brawling it out.
Then what about Clannad? They certainly didn't make an opening that would remotely hint After Story (and surely, some people were crying foul that only Nagisa got a "winner" route as result).
Quote:
(This is sort of the message I get from the 2nd OP. I'm sorry but Key games aren't known for anything similar to a story revolving around most of their characters having superpowers and fighting off evil. I know that Mai's arc and part of Air's Summer arc has some fighting, but the fighting itself is hardly such a large part of the story to warrant making an OP based on it. That's what I feel. I mean even in the anime OPs, you dont' even get a single scene of Mai or Ryuuya slashing their blade.)
And here we go again: why do you expect such thing to happen just with ONE opening, whereas the other one is quite classic?
This is again the whole issue I was addressing in this discussion: you are jumping on some conclusion that is relatively hasty. Granted, if it is actually the case, then that's it. However, if it isn't the case, then it was basically barking at the wrong tree.
Honestly, just "wait & see", because for now, it is just moot.



Quote:
AB had ENTIRE episodes dedicated to blasting through to their underground base. With the majority of these episodes dedicated to watching characters get picked off one by one in a comedic way, without much, if any concern to character development or dialogue. I would never expect an anime based on a VN from past Key works to have entire episodes dedicated to farcical action scenes, no matter how short their series was.
Little Busters would definitely fit the bill quite a bunch, especially if we get a Kyousuke or Saya centred episodes, just saying.

Quote:
As long as they had those plot twists, and those episodes dedicated entirely to action, that show would have been a tough sale for me as coming anything close to Air/Kanon/Clannad animes.
Except the nakige formula is exactly similar to what Maeda usually does, albeit they definitely cut short by a huge margin the plot and character developments. Honestly, there is no way not to draw some similarities between AB and previous Key works regarding the themes and the composition. The execution however is a complete different matter.

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Originally Posted by Ceral View Post
I was shown pics of Kud Wafter, Tomoya After, and Planetarian, please, there's no more action in these titles than in any other work. I fail to see why these wouldn't fall under the same category as the games that they were born out of. Key's last game was Kud Wafter, are you seriously going to tell me that Kud Wafter was supposed to be the herald telling me I should be expecting their next big title to be "Half" THAT 2nd OP? Planetarian is so short and "Side-Project-ish" that I wouldn't give much credence to it. You're not arguing with purists, you're arguing with me, and I fail to see Little Busters, which IMO is the last game that you should really consider as one of their "Big Titles" as even having any different genres from Clannad. This 2nd OP is clearly very different.
I'm pretty sure you weren't trying to play with semantics, but VDZ and Winkel wanted to prove you that Key does stuff beyond the scope of Kanon/Air/Clannad by showing Key/Maeda works that are different.
Of course, they do not have heavy actions at all, but the execution and themes were arguably different from their main flagship titles.

Little Busters, despite being a flagship series, is by a huge margin different from the other series, although its core is what Maeda usually writes. Really, the cast and the events in LB are definitely much broader and having a "blast" than the other 3. That's the whole thing to say: there isn't really a solid "Key" formula to put it blunty, and ignoring any VN which aren't Kanon/Air/Clannad is basically focusing only one a part of the company writers, not the full scope of it.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2011-06-06 at 14:28.
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Old 2011-06-06, 14:30   Link #650
Ceral
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I agree with what you guys have to say. Guys, I'm not complaining about the game, just the 2nd OP. I'm trying to justify that I don't like the 2nd OP by saying it's very different from what I would expect from Key. I am saying that it is very different, but don't take that too literally, Maybe this will get my point across : Horsing around with your friends, a story about family, battling mysterious villains on the moon, which one of these three things should be singled out?

Last edited by Ceral; 2011-06-06 at 14:43.
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Old 2011-06-06, 17:00   Link #651
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Here's the 4chan thread with a multitude of reactions to the 2nd OP: easymodo link

Ceral: Yeah, just 18 days left.

Kagari fan art I haven't seen posted elsewhere in this thread: konachan link
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Old 2011-06-07, 01:13   Link #652
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I've been using that Kagari fan art as my desktop background for the past 10 days
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Old 2011-06-07, 07:09   Link #653
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That Kagari fanart is drool-worthy...
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Old 2011-06-07, 13:39   Link #654
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Originally Posted by Ceral View Post
I'm trying to justify that I don't like the 2nd OP by saying it's very different from what I would expect from Key.
And our question is: what is it you expect from Key? Because if it's just nakige in the vein of Clannad/Kanon/AIR, then that boat has sailed a long time ago and you need accept that Key isn't that kind of company anymore. They have expanded and experimented on lots of things since then. This is simply another example of one of those experiments.

Quote:
Maybe this will get my point across : Horsing around with your friends, a story about family, battling mysterious villains on the moon, which one of these three things should be singled out?
None. The first two are the start of about 80% of the generic eroge I've played, and the last one is reminiscent of one of the better sci-fi ADVs I've played.

The point is: none of that is Key, until you see what Key has done with the concept. That is what makes them unique. Not the ideas, but how they implement those ideas. If Key thinks they can make a "shounen" type story with their style of storytelling, I'm willing to let them try. After playing it, and it turns out to really be the generic action type of story, then I'll be right behind you in denouncing Rewrite and Key as hacks who sold out to the mainstream.
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Old 2011-06-18, 13:58   Link #655
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Please don't flame me, I'm just curious.

Is the translation project still going on?
or are you guys waiting for the full game to be released?
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Old 2011-06-18, 14:10   Link #656
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As far as I know, the trial translation project is pretty much dead. But hey, we can hope someone will try and translate the full game sooner or later!
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Old 2011-06-18, 15:23   Link #657
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With the high-rage of Key fans going on about this I do have high hopes it will have a translation started soon
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Old 2011-06-18, 20:50   Link #658
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Wonder if we'll get an anime out of this?

I enjoyed Clannad and loved Kanon, so I'd certainly be up for it, even if the second animated trailer does seem a bit more 'shonen-esque', but then I like fantasy; so if they make another decent series; then I'd definately be willing to give it a shot based on the strength of some of its characteristics even if they're not all to my taste.
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Old 2011-06-18, 21:21   Link #659
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There's definitely a good chance this time around, unlike the problems that plagued the Little Busters anime.
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Old 2011-06-18, 21:45   Link #660
tyranuus
Team Spice and Wolf UK
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: England
Age: 26
Good news; Key are one of the few companies I've seen who produce what seem to be decent standalone animes from visual novels, which stand well in thier own regards, a lot of VN translations feel like a lot was lost in translation/adaptation.
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bishoujo, hinoue itaru, key, maeda jun, romeo tanaka, ryukishi07, visual novel

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