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View Poll Results: Hanasaku Iroha - Episode 11 Rating
Perfect 10 51 57.95%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 25 28.41%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 8 9.09%
7 out of 10 : Good 2 2.27%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 1.14%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 1.14%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 88. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-06-12, 14:25   Link #41
Arabesque
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
Indeed, Satsuki's situation is realistic, but that doesn't excuse anything. What bothers me the most isn't that she is doing a dishonest job, as you said, you sometimes don't have any choice, but how nonchalant she is about it. She doesn't give a damn whether her false review cost some people their business or their jobs. Rather than mature, I believe Satsuki's stance on is cynical. She truly behaved like a cynical bitch in front of Ohana.
I don't think she's cynical as much as she is very self centered and lack enough empathy towards anyone (or even if she has some, she shows it in the wrong manner (giving candy to her daughter when she should've asked her to come home with her)) and a healthy dosage of a general lack any sort of responsibility (that's pretty clear, from her days in the inn when she ran away to dropping her daughter at a relative she never meet so she could run off with her then boyfriend and then this episode ...)

So yeah, she's all around a horrible person right now.

eta

Quote:
She has no feelings for Ohana, that much is clear.
I disagree, she clearly has feelings for her (she, for example, back at episode 2 had eaten the punishment dinner and this episode she gave her food) but she shows it in a very trivial ways which don't really amount to anything. Her problem is that she refuses to change her self to the better to try and make her daughter happy at the very least, nor does she show enough concern to give her a call when she had came back from her little trip.

Wait, I was disagreeing just now wasn't I? I guess she has very small feelings for her then ...
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Old 2011-06-12, 14:29   Link #42
hanashi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
Anything is ok as long as you're not breaking any laws, you say? Doesn't accepting bribes constitute crime? That is obviously what Satsuki's boss did. Satsuki was well aware of it yet she still accepted to write those reviews, that makes her a willing accomplice. She could get in serious trouble if this story got out.
Lol, she's a travel writer not a politician. And even then, as long as the rules are followed so that it's not blatant quid pro quo, bribes to politicians are called 'campaign contributions.'

And in the magazine's case, they'd probably call it advertising or sponsorship money. That's why you always have to follow the money when you're reading a review. On car commercials, have you ever noticed how they'll say something like "Endorsed by JD Power and Associates" or "received an award from______?" Those firms all get money from the companies they endorse. It's shady, but not illegal. That's why you have to be an informed customer.
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Old 2011-06-12, 14:34   Link #43
ipodi
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Uh oh... I have opened the Pandora's Box. What I have gotten myself into?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Yes, it does.

A professional reviewer's real bosses are the readership. That's especially true in the internet age.
1. Satsuki is not working for an internet company
2. The publication's bosses are the readers. Reviewers' boss is the owner and/or editor of the publication who cuts the check.

Quote:
No, she's not. One of the core rules of a reviewer is, you know, to actually take in (watch, visit, etc...) whatever it is that they're reviewing.
For a respectable publication that presumes editorial independence. Yes.
For a reviewer who writes what her bosses tell her to write. No.

Quote:
It's not trivial when it becomes a continuous problem.
What is the "continuous problem" here? That Ohana is sad?



Quote:
No it's not.

Do all of us have to personally be employed in politics in order to legitimately object to corruption in government?

Of course not.

You're setting a ridiculous standard, in my view.
First of all, my position is that everyone should be free to demand changes in our government. But that is beside the point. I am saying that you should not condemn the people who are afraid to speak out against corruptions because they lacked the courage to do so. These are two separate things with two separate moral implications. What you are alluding to is whether one should have the freedom to stand up for their own belief. Meanwhile, I am discussing whether it is right to condemn the people who are afraid to speak out.

Your earlier post criticized Satuski for failing to speak out or to quit her job. Therefore, you are criticizing her for lack of courage, and I am saying that we should reserve such judgments until we have to face the same hard choice. This has nothing to do with whether people not in the same situation should have the freedom to speak out.

Everyone should have the freedom to speak out against injustices. But people should not judge others poorly for not speaking out because they lacked the courage to do so - until we ourselves have demonstrated the courage first.


I think this is a mature, and an honorable standard. I won't sit in my comfortable chair, with a job security, and demand other people to sacrifice their livelihood or to make difficult life choices so that they can live up to my moral standards.



Quote:
A person can have multiple motivations for one act.
Yes. But you are drawing other motivations based on speculations (which may be proven true later, but not right now) not mentioned in the series yet.

================================================== ==
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
Indeed, Satsuki's situation is realistic, but that doesn't excuse anything. What bothers me the most isn't that she is doing a dishonest job, as you said, you sometimes don't have any choice, but how nonchalant she is about it. She doesn't give a damn whether her false review cost some people their business or their jobs. Rather than mature, I believe Satsuki's stance on is cynical. She truly behaved like a cynical bitch in front of Ohana.

Anything is ok as long as you're not breaking any laws, you say? Doesn't accepting bribes constitute crime? That is obviously what Satsuki's boss did. Satsuki was well aware of it yet she still accepted to write those reviews, that makes her a willing accomplice. She could get in serious trouble if this story got out.
I did not excuse anyone. I stated that this series depicts an adult's complicated life in a mature and honest manner. Isn't it true? Adults face many hard choices and some times we have to play by the rules (which might entail us compromising on what we believe in, though that does not mean we have to do anything illegal). The important thing is that the series didn't pick a side.

That's why I like this episode.

Wal-Mart has destroyed some jobs, I am sure (though I don't take this position). So if everyone who has put other people's jobs in jeopardy should quit, should all Wal-Mart employees all start quitting now?

As for your question on whether bribery in this case is a crime. The answer is nuanced. Writing a false review is libel, which can be fought in court. Accepting bribes to write a malicious or false piece about government can sometimes carry criminal charges. But in America, accepting compensations for writing a nasty piece about another business will not result in any criminal charges.
=============================================
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsuyoshi View Post
It's not just the publication, but the writer is also unprofessional for writing a piece without even knowing the full story of it. How could Satsuki actually write about something she didn't know about? That was why Ohana was getting at, and her uncaring attittude toward Ohana's argument and Ohana herself doesn't help her image of professionalism. It's in fact what I call "fake professionalism" because she creates an image of professionalism about her because she's got a job and writes articles when all she's doing in fact is following the higher-ups' dictations without question. Being a professional means knowing what YOU are doing, not what others would have you do. The fact she wrote the article the way someone else wants to write it essentially makes the article their work and not Satsuki's, and the fact the writing came out of her hand makes her just as guilty.
How I raise my kids and how responsive I am to my kids' feelings are irrelevant to how professional I am as a writer. Let's keep the two separate.

As I have mentioned in the upstream, professionalism has nothing to do with following lofty ideals or becoming the most honest person alive, or knowing what one should be doing. Professionalism is about following the corporate culture, mores, and expectations. If you are working for a biased publication who will do anything for advertising dollars, then the professional thing to do would be to either: 1. quit; 2. accept it and do your job. The first choice shows incredible integrity and courage, but not professionalism. Similarly, choosing the second option does not diminish one's professionalism.

Quote:
It's important because Satsuki has been doing what she's doing to Ohana her entire life, and abandoning her when she did, and then returning to Tokyo without even letting her know shows how much she actually cares for Ohana.
Not a parental failure. Being cold to your kids is unpleasant, but it's not a parental failure.

As for how Satsuki does not care about Ohana, I see her bringing snacks to Ohana even though she clearly disagrees with Ohana's position to be an indication that she cares a great deal about Ohana - in her own ways.

Last edited by ipodi; 2011-06-12 at 15:22.
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Old 2011-06-12, 14:39   Link #44
Triple_R
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Now, time to review the episode in general.

Like Tsuyoshi, I also think that this was an absolutely wonderful episode.

It was just chock full of excellent and dramatic character development and plot development.

Ohana has now become my favorite anime character of this season. She has a completely contagious charisma to her. Her fiery and relentless opposition to what she feels is unjust is truly admirable and a lot of fun to watch, really.

The plot of this episode was very tight, and perfectly paced. It had a good dual focus, as one part focused on the Inn review storyline, and the other part focused on Ohana's relationship with Ko. Okada did a splendid job of having the two come together in a very natural, realistic, and seamless fashion.


The confrontation between Ohana and her mother was excellent. This may sound odd given my earlier points on this thread, but I'm actually glad that Satsuki was presented as such an unabashed antagonist, as this provides Ohana with the perfect foil to go up against. In many ways, it makes Ohana's earlier conflict with the Management Consultant seem like mere practice for the mother vs. daughter main event.

Between the Management Consultant, and now Satsuki, I see how this anime may have a fair bit of social commentary to it, and I welcome that.


On the romance front, the plot is certainly thickening isn't it?

Okada does it again, managing to weave together a complex romantic conflict that would make most harem anime shows blush.

I have to say that Okada does romantic conflict as well as any anime writer around, and that certainly came through nicely in this episode.

While this isn't my favorite HSI episode, it's a very close 2nd, and I give it 10/10.
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Old 2011-06-12, 15:05   Link #45
Arabesque
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
The confrontation between Ohana and her mother was excellent. This may sound odd given my earlier points on this thread, but I'm actually glad that Satsuki was presented as such an unabashed antagonist, as this provides Ohana with the perfect foil to go up against. In many ways, it makes Ohana's earlier conflict with the Management Consultant seem like mere practice for the mother vs. daughter main event.
As much as I despise her, I doubt that Satsuki is going to remain as unabashedly horrible as she was these past few episodes. There is likely going to be an attempt to ''redeem'' her and show that she has her own personal demons that make her so self centered, most likely coming from her days back at Kissuiso and what sort of relationship she had with her mother, going by the tone of the series and what sort of writer Okada is.

Of course, whether or not these reasons are valid or reasonable remains to be seen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I have to say that Okada does romantic conflict as well as any anime writer around, and that certainly came through nicely in this episode.
Yes, occasionally, she does make some interesting romantic plot lines when she is more focused.

At the moment, I'm gathering that Kohana is where the core is meant to be at for the romantic plot, but I'm honestly far more interested in Minchii's position. She clearly had developed feelings of great respect for Ohana, and I think it's safe to say that she sees her as a friend (though she may not want to admit that heh) so what will happen once Tooru makes his move? Ko likes Ohana, but in case it doesn't work out, has this other girl who's waiting for him, Ohana is already interested in Ko, and Tooru obviously has been developing (unbelievably) some Romantic feelings towards her. At the moment she's the one who has the best chance of being royally screwed by the incoming battle, whether by Tooru not returning her feelings or by her stepping aside for her friend (or wanting her beloved to be happy)
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Old 2011-06-12, 15:25   Link #46
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ipodi View Post
1. Satsuki is not working for an internet company
I never said that she did.


Quote:
2. The publication's bosses are the readers, not the reviewers who work for the publication.
Without a readership, a reviewer is out of a job. So a reviewer is every bit as accountable to his or her readership as s/he is to his or her direct boss. If not moreso.

Even from a purely pragmatic point of view, what Satsuki is doing here is risky stuff. Suppose a lot of people who were actually at these Inns end up reading the overly negative reviews, and rightly notice that they're garbage? Those same people can then protest the reviews, bringing controversy and shame on to the publication that Satsuki wrote the reviews in. Satsuki herself could easily get caught up in that, and have her career ruined.

A true professional would object to such needless risks (or at least not partake in them). These risks are ones that undermine the integrity of the profession itself.


Quote:
For a respectable publication that presumes editorial independence. Yes.
For a reviewer who writes what her bosses tell her to write. No.
I disagree.


Quote:
What is the "continuous problem" here? That Ohana is sad?
Yeah, frankly. Unless you think that a parent shouldn't be concerned whatsoever with the happiness or contentedness of his or her child.


Quote:
First of all, my position is that everyone should be free to demand changes in our government. But this is beside the point. I am saying that you should not condemn the people who are afraid to speak out against corruptions because they lacked the courage to do so.
I may be misreading a comment or two on this thread, but I don't see anybody here condemning Satsuki for that specifically.

It is not just that Satsuki is turning a blind eye to such corruptions (which I wouldn't like, but I could easily forgive). It's that she's an active participant in them, and doesn't even feel the slightest sense of guilt over them.


Quote:
What you are alluding to is whether one should have the freedom to stand up for their own belief.
Precisely. And I'm saying that in my belief what Satuski is doing is deserving of criticism. As is what the publication in general is doing, of course.


Quote:

Your earlier post criticized Satuski for failing to speak out.
There is more to my criticism than that alone.


Quote:
Yes. But you are drawing other motivations based on speculations (which may be proven true later, but not right now) not mentioned in the series yet.
This anime has already make it abundantly clear that Satuski and her mom do not see eye-to-eye and had a falling out with one another.

It's hardly a great leap of logic to then speculate that Satuski's harsh review of her mother's Inn was motivated, in part, but Satuski's personal issues with her mothers.


Quote:
Wal-Mart has destroyed some jobs, I am sure (though I don't take this position).
Bad analogy.

There's a difference between costing jobs through honest competition in the marketplace, and costing jobs through dishonest reviews.


Quote:
Writing a false review is libel, which can be fought in court.
There's your crime right there then. There's no question that these are false reviews.


Quote:

As I have mentioned in the upstream, professionalism has nothing to do with following lofty ideals or becoming the most honest person alive.
1. Strawman argument. Nobody is expecting Satsuki to be "the most honest person alive".

2. For some professions, at least, honesty and professionalism do go hand-in-hand. I would definitely consider a professional reviewer to be one such profession.


Quote:
Professionalism is about following the corporate culture, mores, and expectations.
Where does "corporate" come into play? Not all professions are corporate in nature.

Professionalism is about living up to the standards set by other members of your profession. And the standards of professional reviewers involve giving honest reviews.


Quote:
Not a parental failure. Being cold to your kids is unpleasant, but it's not a parental failure.
Most child developmental psychologists would disagree.


Satsuki may care about her daughter at a superficial level, but not to any significant degree, in my opinion.
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Old 2011-06-12, 15:49   Link #47
Irisiel
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By the way, the way that Ohana calls out for Kou-chan to save her is kind of telling when it comes to her relationship with her mother. Her mother is basically a grown child that Ohana felt responsible for, but since Satsuki is the adult, Ohana has no true authority over her and therefore is stuck worrying about her, cooking and just hoping that her mother for once would do the right thing.

Then along comes dependable, kind and helpful Kou-chan, who, aside from possibly some teachers, would be Ohana's only support and source of warm affection. He comforts her, encourages her, is there for her, you know, just about all those things that Satsuki is not.

So when Ohana is in distress it is Kou-chan she calls for, and not her mother. And now she also knows that Minko and Tooru will be there when she calls for help (even if by coincidence).

Just think of how terrifying Ohana's life before Kou-chan would have been; a mother that flakes out, who wont even cook on her own, who can't comfort a pet rock, who ends up with troublesome boyfriends and who just wont take care of herself. And Ohana had to deal with it on her own, without any support. No wonder she refuses to rely on people before she gets to know them.
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Old 2011-06-12, 15:53   Link #48
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What an awful person and a mother Satsuki is. She's far worse than I thought she woulg turn out. Thank god Ohana wont be like her, what child of a person like that would want that.
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Old 2011-06-12, 15:59   Link #49
Kagayaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ipodi View Post
Love her or hate her, but I think the situation depicted in this episode is very mature. Many adults have a job that they cannot be proud of, but they are doing it to support their kids. This is what Satsuki does - and she accepts it. Some people will feel bad for what they have to do and look for another job, other people will resign to their situation and reconcile their moral qualms for the sake of their family and kids (or for themselves).

This is the reality. And this series didn't sugarcoat it by having Satsuki apologizing to anyone for her work. This is what I would do. I put in the hours to get the job done. I get my paycheck. I am not going to apologize to anyone for your moral issues as long as I am not breaking any laws. A job gives us a sense of responsibility, and we don't always have the luxury of keep searching for a job that will fit us. Sometimes, in the real world, we have to change ourselves to fit our job.

At the same time, even with all her failings, Satsuki still supports Ohana's own beliefs and the path she has chosen by bringing her snacks. Yes, the parenting style depicted here is a very adult, and a cold one, with no tears or hugs. Yet, who is to say that it's not the reason why Ohana has grown to be a headstrong and an independent teenager?
First of all, I'll point out that as a character, Satsuki is perfect for this series and is doing a good job of injecting interesting drama.

I think it's a mistake to categorize her behavior as mature, though. I can see why a high-handed criticism of her lack of moral courage might seem somewhat hollow, given that many of us have never been in Satsuki's shoes.

The issue, for me, is that Satsuki wasn't writing fabricated reviews about a random stranger. She was writing them about her mother and her daughter.

I'd like to think that even if I wouldn't have the moral courage to speak out in all circumstances, there are at least a few people in my life who I would be willing to stand up for, even if it might be a poor career decision. Essentially, what this episode showed was that there is nobody in Satsuki's life who she feels the need to stand up for.

That's not a sign of maturity, nor is it a sign of immaturity. It's just sad.
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Old 2011-06-12, 16:03   Link #50
Roger Rambo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ipodi View Post
P
If failing to get your child a right Christmas gift is considered a parental failure, then: 1. kids today are horribly spoiled
Well to be honest that WAS just one thing in an entire list.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ipodi View Post
2. kids today need Satuski's brand of parenting where you get to learn to st!u.
That'd be the most dysfunctional generation you could possibly produce
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Originally Posted by ipodi View Post
Not a parental failure. Being cold to your kids is unpleasant, but it's not a parental failure.
Ohana's grandma is cold towards her. Satsuki is chipper but bassically is a poster child for parental negligence.
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Old 2011-06-12, 16:05   Link #51
ipodi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I never said that she did.
That's not what I said. I stated that how internet has changed the reader-reviewer relationship is irrelevant, so bringing it up serves no purpose.

Quote:
Without a readership, a reviewer is out of a job. So a reviewer is every bit as accountable to his or her readership as s/he is to his or her direct boss. If not moreso.
They are still not the reviewers' bosses. If the owner of the publication thinks that biased reviews bring in more cash then keeping the customer's base, then base on your logic, advertisers will be the boss. Whether this is a short-term opportunistic view is irrelevant to the fact that it's the owner who direct the personnel decisions and operations, not the customers.

Quote:
Even from a purely pragmatic point of view, what Satsuki is doing here is risky stuff. Suppose a lot of people who were actually at these Inns end up reading the overly negative reviews, and rightly notice that they're garbage? Those same people can then protest the reviews, bringing controversy and shame on to the publication that Satsuki wrote the reviews in. Satsuki herself could easily get caught up in that, and have her career ruined.

A true professional would object to such needless risks (or at least not partake in them). These risks are ones that undermine the integrity of the profession itself.
Once again, this is not the definition for professionalism.


Quote:
Yeah, frankly. Unless you think that a parent shouldn't be concerned whatsoever with the happiness or contentedness of his or her child.
A nice perk - but not a main concern. A main concern ought to be whether the kids are well-adjusted.

By all accounts, Ohana is.


Quote:
I may be misreading a comment or two on this thread, but I don't see anybody here condemning Satsuki for that specifically.
You did - it's one of the things you brought up.

Quote:
It is not just that Satsuki is turning a blind eye to such corruptions. It's that she's an active participant in them, and doesn't even feel the slightest sense of guilt over them.
There is no corruption. There is a special interest in play, but that's not corruption.


Quote:
Precisely. And I'm saying that in my belief what Satuski is deserving of criticism. As is what the publication in general is doing, of course.
Precisely what? You are criticizing her courage. And as I said, doing so while we have not yet demonstrated the same courage is smugness.


Quote:
There is more to my criticism than that alone.
One of which involves you criticizing her courage for not speaking out. And this is the one I am focusing on. Are you saying that her failure to speak out is no longer a negative count now? If so, then we have reached an agreement.


Quote:
This anime has already make it abundantly clear that Satuski and her mom do not see eye-to-eye and had a falling out with one another.

It's hardly a great leap of logic to then speculate that Satuski's harsh review of her mother's Inn was motivated, in part, but Satuski's personal issues with her mothers.
A leap is speculation.


Quote:
Bad analogy.

There's a difference between costing jobs through honest competition in the marketplace, and costing jobs through dishonest reviews.
A fair point. I am willing so state that the publication is dishonest.


Quote:
There's your crime right there then. There's no question that these are false reviews.
I have no idea what you are talking about. I did not dispute whether libel happened or not.

Quote:
1. Strawman argument. Nobody is expecting Satsuki to be "the most honest person alive".

2. For some professions, at least, honesty and professionalism do go hand-in-hand. I would definitely consider a professional reviewer to be one such profession.
1. So people can be "a little honest?" Like you can be "a little pregnant?" Please.


Quote:
Where does "corporate" come into play? Not all professions are corporate in nature.

Professionalism is about living up to the standards set by your profession. And the standards of professional reviewers involving giving honest reviews.
I will now address the previous two quotes here together. One, that's not the definition for professionalism. That's your ideal of professionalism. So far, every time I brought this up, your argument has always been "I disagree."

So I wish not to expound on this any further. We will just be going in circles if one party adopts his own definition.


Quote:
Most child developmental psychologists would disagree.
Oh? Please cite any actual studies that make such pronouncement.


Quote:
Satsuki may care about her daughter at a superficial level, but not to any significant degree, in my opinion.
That's fine.
================
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kagayaki View Post
First of all, I'll point out that as a character, Satsuki is perfect for this series and is doing a good job of injecting interesting drama.

I think it's a mistake to categorize her behavior as mature, though. I can see why a high-handed criticism of her lack of moral courage might seem somewhat hollow, given that many of us have never been in Satsuki's shoes.

The issue, for me, is that Satsuki wasn't writing fabricated reviews about a random stranger. She was writing them about her mother and her daughter.

I'd like to think that even if I wouldn't have the moral courage to speak out in all circumstances, there are at least a few people in my life who I would be willing to stand up for, even if it might be a poor career decision. Essentially, what this episode showed was that there is nobody in Satsuki's life who she feels the need to stand up for.

That's not a sign of maturity, nor is it a sign of immaturity. It's just sad.
Again, let me make this clear:

I said how this series depicts the situation Satsuki is facing is mature. I did not say she is mature. I did not say she did the right or wrong thing. I did not criticize or praise anyone other than Ohana.
=====================================
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
That'd be the most dysfunctional generation you could possibly produce
Ummmm... no. There is a near consensus that snowflakery and self-entitlement are running wild among schoolkids.

Last edited by ipodi; 2011-06-12 at 16:26.
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Old 2011-06-12, 16:07   Link #52
Tsuyoshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ipodi View Post
What is the "continuous problem" here? That Ohana is sad?
I thought I touched on this in my earlier post: the continuous problem is that Satsuki's neglected Ohana all her life, and that she had the nerve to say she raised Ohana pissed me off to say the least. Satsuki hasn't done anything to make Ohana happy even once: never gave her the right present for xmas if any, never showed up at parent's day at school, back out of any promise she made, like taking her to the pool, what have you. The continuous problem is Satsuki's neglectful attittude toward her daughter, so much that she never even bothered to tell Ohana that she's back in Tokyo, split up with her bf and asked if she was doing fine. No, she dumped her at Kissuiso and that was it so far as her relationship with Ohana went. THAT's the continuous problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ipodi View Post
First of all, my position is that everyone should be free to demand changes in our government. But that is beside the point. I am saying that you should not condemn the people who are afraid to speak out against corruptions because they lacked the courage to do so. These are two separate things with two separate moral implications. What you are alluding to is whether one should have the freedom to stand up for their own belief. Meanwhile, I am discussing whether it is right to condemn the people who are afraid to speak out.
If you mean Satsuki, it's not that she's afraid to speak out, it's more that she doesn't care to speak out and just wants to write whatever she has to for herself, without giving thought to the consequences this bears on other people, particularly her daughter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ipodi View Post
I did not excuse anyone. I stated that this series depicts an adult's complicated life in a mature and honest manner. Isn't it true? Adults face many hard choices and some times we have to play by the rules (which might entail us compromising on what we believe in, though that does not mean we have to do anything illegal). The important thing is that the series didn't pick a side.

That's why I like this episode.
I liked it too for this reason. I'm not neccessarily saying she didn't have her reasons for taking a dishonest job. What I'm criticizing her for is mainly how she takes it as it is and doesn't really care about why she's doing it so long as she makes a living, and even more for the fact she cares more for making a living in such a manner than actually bothering to at least know how her daughter is doing after abandoning her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ipodi View Post
How I raise my kids and how responsive I am to my kids' feelings are irrelevant to how professional I am as a writer. Let's keep the two separate.

As I have mentioned in the upstream, professionalism has nothing to do with following lofty ideals or becoming the most honest person alive, or knowing what one should be doing. Professionalism is about following the corporate culture, mores, and expectations. If you are working for a biased publication who will do anything for advertising dollars, then the professional thing to do would be to either: 1. quit; 2. accept it and do your job. The first choice shows incredible integrity and courage, but not professionalism. Similarly, choosing the second option does not diminish one's professionalism.
I beg to differ. Like I said, being professional means knowing what you're doing and having your methods of doing them. What Satsuki is doing is merely writing what her bosses are telling her to write. That's not professionalism, that's merely following the company's status quo without question. Besides, I'm not the only one who will say that writing a public article that's based on lies and rumors is unprofessional. Many others in the industry would say the same thing.

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Originally Posted by ipodi View Post
Not a parental failure. Being cold to your kids is unpleasant, but it's not a parental failure.
Being cold and unpleasant to your kid IS a parental failure. When you, deliberately or not, lose your way to communicate to your kid because you're cold and distant, neglecting their needs and desires, that's what it is to be a failure as a parent. On top of that Satsuki didn't try to patch things up and abandoned Ohana. As for the snacks, knowing Satsuki, she gave them to Ohana as her way of saying "give up, you're not gonna convince me anytime soon" rather than showing caring for her.
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Old 2011-06-12, 16:12   Link #53
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Originally Posted by ipodi View Post
Ummmm... no. There is a near consensus that snowflakery and self-entitlement are running wild among schoolkids.
I think you'd be having entirely different problems if the average parent was like Satsuki.
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Old 2011-06-12, 16:19   Link #54
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Originally Posted by Tsuyoshi View Post
I thought I touched on this in my earlier post: the continuous problem is that Satsuki's neglected Ohana all her life, and that she had the nerve to say she raised Ohana pissed me off to say the least. Satsuki hasn't done anything to make Ohana happy even once: never gave her the right present for xmas if any, never showed up at parent's day at school, back out of any promise she made, like taking her to the pool, what have you. The continuous problem is Satsuki's neglectful attittude toward her daughter, so much that she never even bothered to tell Ohana that she's back in Tokyo, split up with her bf and asked if she was doing fine. No, she dumped her at Kissuiso and that was it so far as her relationship with Ohana went. THAT's the continuous problem.
The question on the "continuous problem" was addressed to another poster, so I did not talk about the issues you discussed, and thus, I had to skip what you have said on this issue. But rest assured that I did read what you have said and thought your points were well-reasoned.

Quote:
If you mean Satsuki, it's not that she's afraid to speak out, it's more that she doesn't care to speak out and just wants to write whatever she has to for herself, without giving thought to the consequences this bears on other people, particularly her daughter.
And unless I need to face the same difficult choice and have the courage to speak up at the expense of my job, I will not make moral judgments on others for failing to make a courageous stand.


Quote:
I beg to differ. Like I said, being professional means knowing what you're doing and having your methods of doing them. What Satsuki is doing is merely writing what her bosses are telling her to write. That's not professionalism, that's merely following the company's status quo without question. Besides, I'm not the only one who will say that writing a public article that's based on lies and rumors is unprofessional. Many others in the industry would say the same thing.
The publication is unprofessional, not the author of the said piece. Satsuki has lost her chance to become a courageous and an incredible role model, to be sure. But I won't blame her for making the choice she did - until I have gone through the same situation and have the courage to do otherwise.

Quote:
Being cold and unpleasant to your kid IS a parental failure. When you, deliberately or not, lose your way to communicate to your kid because you're cold and distant, neglecting their needs and desires, that's what it is to be a failure as a parent. On top of that Satsuki didn't try to patch things up and abandoned Ohana. As for the snacks, knowing Satsuki, she gave them to Ohana as her way of saying "give up, you're not gonna convince me anytime soon" rather than showing caring for her.
I think we are defining failure differently. This is too subjective (more so than many other topics), so I will just say that you have raised a good point and leave it at that.

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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
I think you'd be having entirely different problems if the average parent was like Satsuki.
What? Then have the kids to all turn out like Ohana? That would be utopia.
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Old 2011-06-12, 16:25   Link #55
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Originally Posted by ipodi View Post
And unless I need to face the same difficult choice and have the courage to speak up at the expense of my job, I will not make moral judgments on others.
You don't need moral authority over an issue, having the experience of acting differently, to call someone out on something. If I'm trash, I'll still call someone else trash.

That said, while Ohana's mother didn't necessarily make an admirable decision, I wouldn't call her a bad person. Most people would not risk their job over something like this, especially considering Ohana's mother and grandmother aren't on good terms anyways (Which people seem to be failing to take into account here).

To stand up for something, there's got to be something in it for you. I doubt many would toss away their job for moral integrity unless something else they valued was on the line for them.
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Old 2011-06-12, 16:31   Link #56
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
You don't need moral authority over an issue, having the experience of acting differently, to call someone out on something. If I'm trash, I'll still call someone else trash.
Calling people out is dramatically different, and incomparable to putting your career on the line over a perceived injustice or corruption.

Quote:
That said, while Ohana's mother didn't necessarily make an admirable decision, I wouldn't call her a bad person. Most people would not risk their job over something like this, especially considering Ohana's mother and grandmother aren't on good terms anyways (Which people seem to be failing to take into account here).

To stand up for something, there's got to be something in it for you. I doubt many would toss away their job for moral integrity unless something else they valued was on the line for them.
Precisely. Satsuki has room to grow as a mother, as a role model, and as a person. But failure to put her career on the line is not a personal failure of any kind.
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Old 2011-06-12, 16:40   Link #57
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Heads up: I've created a Satsuki thread, so please move there to expand the discussion about Satsuki.

This is the ep. 11 thread and room shall be left for people to discuss this (wonderful, spectacular, magnificent) episode on its whole.
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Old 2011-06-12, 16:47   Link #58
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
A professional reviewer's real bosses are the readership. That's especially true in the internet age.
No, the real bosses are the advertisers, since they're the ones forking over most of the cash. The readers are the merchandise.

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Originally Posted by ipodi View Post
Love her or hate her, but I think the situation depicted in this episode is very mature. Many adults have a job that they cannot be proud of, but they are doing it to support their kids. This is what Satsuki does - and she accepts it. Some people will feel bad for what they have to do and look for another job, other people will resign to their situation and reconcile their moral qualms for the sake of their family and kids (or for themselves).
Satsuki supports herself. Ohana's never been more than an afterthought.


Re: Satsuki's professionalism:
As a writer for a PR firm masquerading as an honest magazine, I'd say she's professional. At least, she gets the job done.

OTOH, if you think of her as an actual reviewer... So, yeah.

I won't discuss the ethics of that magazine, but I'll say that from a business standpoint, it's not necessarily nonsensical. Tabloids sometimes publish libel knowing that whatever fines they'll have to pay will be dwarfed by the benefits they'll draw. Here, it's slightly different: they know they're not really at risk of being contradicted. Especially since they couched their reviews in unfalsifiable subjective terms. I suppose if the inns managed to make a big splash of how their reviewer never actually visited, they could lose readership and it'd be bad, but how likely is that?

One point of hope, though: it looked like someone sent a reviewer, who left satisfied. Maybe it wasn't Satsuki's magazine, but a rival?
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Old 2011-06-12, 16:53   Link #59
ipodi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
No, the real bosses are the advertisers, since they're the ones forking over most of the cash. The readers are the merchandise.


Satsuki supports herself. Ohana's never been more than an afterthought.


Re: Satsuki's professionalism:
As a writer for a PR firm masquerading as an honest magazine, I'd say she's professional. At least, she gets the job done.

OTOH, if you think of her as an actual reviewer... So, yeah.

I won't discuss the ethics of that magazine, but I'll say that from a business standpoint, it's not necessarily nonsensical. Tabloids sometimes publish libel knowing that whatever fines they'll have to pay will be dwarfed by the benefits they'll draw. Here, it's slightly different: they know they're not really at risk of being contradicted. Especially since they couched their reviews in unfalsifiable subjective terms. I suppose if the inns managed to make a big splash of how their reviewer never actually visited, they could lose readership and it'd be bad, but how likely is that?

One point of hope, though: it looked like someone sent a reviewer, who left satisfied. Maybe it wasn't Satsuki's magazine, but a rival?
I appreciate an insider's view. I publish in peer-reviewed journals, and we are obligated to disclose everything from our financial funding to our affiliations. Perhaps that's why I take a kinder view on trade magazines that chase advertising dollars.
Based on the moderator's comment, I will not make further comments about Satsuki.

Last edited by ipodi; 2011-06-12 at 17:11.
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Old 2011-06-12, 16:54   Link #60
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Season should end with Ko taking Ohana to a love hotel.
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