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Old 2011-06-14, 06:51   Link #11221
Mr.Kyon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soul Assassin View Post
In before Fiamma / Ollerus becomes one.
That will be the fuel of my sexuality for a few years if that happens.
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Old 2011-06-14, 07:07   Link #11222
NightGale
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Volume22_Chapter_10
Spoiler for Touma and Fiammaīs fight...:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilfriback View Post
IMO, it doesn't makes sense, because then it wouldn't be a power based on the right hand thus making his arm useless for Fiamma's Holy Right .
Quote:
Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
IB identify Touma's right hand as its proper host, and only Touma's right hand.
So where ever Touma's right hand goes, IB follows.
So when Fiamma cut off the arm and absorbed it, IB went with it.
But when Touma regrow his right hand... it is Touma's right hand on Touma and Touma's right hand in Fiamma. IB made the obvious choice on where to go.

My own theory, the power that is present at where Touma's cut off right arm originally is.... is really the power of the entity inside him that overlapped with where IB originally is when the arm is still attached.
Touma clearly didnīt have his right arm, yet he managed to deflect Fiammaīs attack, thatīs clearly a way of saying that "IB source" is not "the right hand" but rather the existence of "Kamijou Touma"... is possible that one of his most practical or maybe is best to say "basic form" is that of "the right hand", but is by no means limited to that; thatīs, what i meant when i said that his right arm is not indispensable to use IB, in fact "The Third Arm", is "not" part of Fiammaīs body, is a spiritual projection of a right-handed arm with all the meaning and power behind that figure, but Fiammaīs own right arm is not truly necessary to use it.

The small fragment of "IB power" that remained in the arm that Fiamma stole, obeyed the will of itīs source and returned to Touma... in essence thatīs what happened when Touma grew back his arm, the residual power on the stolen arm felt the presence of itīs true host and returned to itīs rightful place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Okashira View Post
For what I remember this is a "major" miss translation (well, it's not major but it can be taken the "other way" on how it's phrased) and it always strucks me how this line is quoted just everywhere. The original text said something like "I don't want to be a hero" and then he looked his right hand and said "But I'll get to be the hero". The sentence implied that that he has no interest in being a hero, but since he is forced to have the imagine breaker and the imagine breaker is just was needed to save Index, he'll have to play the hero for once; even though that normally useless hand that he has doesn't raise his bad scores and keeps him unpopular with the girls and the other bad things.

Even going further, that he uses the Kanji of "Main character" for that expression (and the furigana of Hero), so that already changes the "hero" meaning of the word.

To me the biggest thing about old Touma is that he referred to God and "His system", something that the new Touma hasn't done at all.
Try thinking about it like this: What is a hero? what is a main character? isnīt a main character the hero of his own story?
There are many types of heroes: everyday hero, anti-hero, useless hero, unexpected hero, dark hero, valiant hero, a not so heroic hero, true hero... Ultimately, a "Hero" is no more than someone who by his own will (even if moved by circumstances, in the end he is the one that chooses what to do and how to do so...), stands up and fights to protect and realize his convictions... but even that, is not something so over the top: a single mother that raises her children all the way to the university, a working man that everyday brings food to the table for his family, a doctor that helps a patient walk once more... all of those are "everydayīs heroes", it just happens that most of us are being deluded by the most common type of hero : "The Epic Hero", you know the one that slays dragons, saves damsels in distress, fights gods and conquers the world... ; hell, Kamachi is a hero that dispels writerīs blocks and bring us more and more of the amazing world of Toaru,xD.

Now in Toumaīs case (I will refer to the Touma before of the memory wipe as "the first" and after memory wipe as "the second"), the first Touma, just like you said is reluctant to do so but in the end by his won will he accepts his role as the main character in stage to save Index, isnīt this someone who accepts his role as a hero? ...the second Touma on the other hand, time and time again denies others view of him as a hero, he even goes as far as saying that he "fights for himself" and deny the need of heroes, you donīt need special reasons to do what you yourself truly want to do ...In fact this is quite a "heroic mindset", but the main point is the difference in values: the first recognizes his role as a hero and though with reluctance, he embraces it; the second on the other hand, sees no need of heroes, he just does whatever he himself feels is the best to protect what is important to him (sounds similar but theres a definite difference).
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Old 2011-06-14, 07:09   Link #11223
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I thought we already had a tread for discussing abilities and such in detail?
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Old 2011-06-14, 07:32   Link #11224
NightGale
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Hmm, well the original discussion was about how the ridiculous fights of Touma that apart from the IB is a normal high-schooler, started to make sense at the end of his fight with Fiamma, with the "invisible power" and his planaria level regeneration power... then it suddenly derailed (mostly because of me,) at how his luck is actually more grim than i expected and the difference of values between the first and second Touma (pre and post memory wipe respectively)... apart from one or two tidbits of ability brainstorming is still more about Touma as a character is it not?
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Old 2011-06-14, 09:28   Link #11225
Chaos2Frozen
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This is great; before the topic of 'heroes' became recognized as an important part of Index discussion, the only thing people ever seriously talk about Touma were speculations on Imagine Breaker- few people actually analysed him and his actions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NightGale View Post

Try thinking about it like this: What is a hero? what is a main character? isnīt a main character the hero of his own story?
There are many types of heroes: everyday hero, anti-hero, useless hero, unexpected hero, dark hero, valiant hero, a not so heroic hero, true hero... Ultimately, a "Hero" is no more than someone who by his own will (even if moved by circumstances, in the end he is the one that chooses what to do and how to do so...), stands up and fights to protect and realize his convictions... but even that, is not something so over the top: a single mother that raises her children all the way to the university, a working man that everyday brings food to the table for his family, a doctor that helps a patient walk once more... all of those are "everydayīs heroes", it just happens that most of us are being deluded by the most common type of hero : "The Epic Hero", you know the one that slays dragons, saves damsels in distress, fights gods and conquers the world... ; hell, Kamachi is a hero that dispels writerīs blocks and bring us more and more of the amazing world of Toaru,xD.
Interestingly, there's a topic on the AS-Forum's General Chat that discusses the concept of a hero.

In any case, Kamachi's view of a hero is one that is decisive and never be distracted from minor issues, He would never see himself as anything great, and he's the one that would finish the job.

But more importantly; as a hero, nobody really cares if you defeated the big bad boss or save the Planet from destruction or even if you brought about World peace. In Anime the most heroic deed any male character can do is to rescue the girl... Preferably from being sacrificed... Or a wedding... Either way works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NightGale View Post
Now in Toumaīs case (I will refer to the Touma before of the memory wipe as "the first" and after memory wipe as "the second"), the first Touma, just like you said is reluctant to do so but in the end by his won will he accepts his role as the main character in stage to save Index, isnīt this someone who accepts his role as a hero? ...the second Touma on the other hand, time and time again denies others view of him as a hero, he even goes as far as saying that he "fights for himself" and deny the need of heroes, you donīt need special reasons to do what you yourself truly want to do ...In fact this is quite a "heroic mindset", but the main point is the difference in values: the first recognizes his role as a hero and though with reluctance, he embraces it; the second on the other hand, sees no need of heroes, he just does whatever he himself feels is the best to protect what is important to him (sounds similar but theres a definite difference).
The thing about Touma is that he is a 'weak' hero; to be exact he doesn't have a strong power like many other shounen heroes. For powerful characters, there's nothing particularly impressive when they stand against a powerful foe because well, you expect them to be able to do it. There's nothing heroic because it's normal for such characters. But that's not the case for Touma and yet he never complaints or back out.

Of course now we know that there's something else in him, but that doesn't change anything imo because what the Author is getting at is that Touma's character is not defined by the power he wields. I don't know why it has taken me so long to realized this; if Touma was only able to do what he does because he had Imagine Breaker, then in situations where Imagine Breaker is useless, he wouldn't be able to do what he does- But that's not the case isn't it? Time and time again he proves that even if he can't use his power, he's still going to do what needs to be do. And that's something more heroic than a powerful character that can defeat armies.

Kamachi tried to instill the same values into Mikoto, as we have seen with Railgun, but he has never given her a chance to back up her words. She has never been in a dangerous situation where she is only a 'normal' girl... And succeed even without her powers.

But Touma isn't a perfect hero... Not yet at least... Because Kamachi has forgotten the basic rule and that is every Hero needs a perfect Villain; Someone who is his mirror opposite, the ideal foil, the one that matches him in every way and for god sake won't become his friend or rival =_=
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Old 2011-06-14, 09:35   Link #11226
Miraluka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NightGale View Post
Touma clearly didnīt have his right arm, yet he managed to deflect Fiammaīs attack, thatīs clearly a way of saying that "IB source" is not "the right hand" but rather the existence of "Kamijou Touma"... is possible that one of his most practical or maybe is best to say "basic form" is that of "the right hand", but is by no means limited to that; thatīs, what i meant when i said that his right arm is not indispensable to use IB, in fact "The Third Arm", is "not" part of Fiammaīs body, is a spiritual projection of a right-handed arm with all the meaning and power behind that figure, but Fiammaīs own right arm is not truly necessary to use it.

The small fragment of "IB power" that remained in the arm that Fiamma stole, obeyed the will of itīs source and returned to Touma... in essence thatīs what happened when Touma grew back his arm, the residual power on the stolen arm felt the presence of itīs true host and returned to itīs rightful place.
Fiamma' s 'Third Arm' moves in accord to Fiamma's right hand moves, he doesn't have the proper medium but still is there.

Touma didn't negated the attack as if he had the IB he cut it into a half, if its a "residual power" then Fiamma would never had to release a large amount of his power output to overwhelm it.
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Old 2011-06-14, 09:35   Link #11227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen
But Touma isn't a perfect hero... Not yet at least... Because Kamachi has forgotten the basic rule and that is every Hero needs a perfect Villain; Someone who is his mirror opposite, the ideal foil, the one that matches him in every way and for god sake won't become his friend or rival =_=
There are dozens of "What is a Hero" and "What makes a Hero" theories in existence(my personal favorite being "Hero is the other side's Villain" but that one would not fit this kind of story :P). I wouldn't go as far as saying he has forgotten. It is quite possible he just thinks that Touma doesn't need an opposite for him to be a Hero.
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Old 2011-06-14, 09:47   Link #11228
SoloPanda
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nayrael View Post
There are dozens of "What is a Hero" and "What makes a Hero" theories in existence(my personal favorite being "Hero is the other side's Villain" but that one would not fit this kind of story :P). I wouldn't go as far as saying he has forgotten. It is quite possible he just thinks that Touma doesn't need an opposite for him to be a Hero.
I thought all the villains where somewhat a mirror of touma (only taking certain aspects to the extreme) .... especialy Acqua Accelerator and Shiage who are no longer considered villains i guess.
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Old 2011-06-14, 09:49   Link #11229
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nayrael View Post
There are dozens of "What is a Hero" and "What makes a Hero" theories in existence(my personal favorite being "Hero is the other side's Villain" but that one would not fit this kind of story :P). I wouldn't go as far as saying he has forgotten. It is quite possible he just thinks that Touma doesn't need an opposite for him to be a Hero.
Well, Kamachi has taken a slightly different route; there are some villains in this story that are 'what if' scenarios that Touma would have become if things were different.

Aureolus Izzard, what happens if he wasn't able to save Index?
Accelerator, what happens if he never had a loving family?
Hamazura Shiage, what happens if he had given up and blamed others?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoloPanda View Post
I thought all the villains where somewhat a mirror of touma (only taking certain aspects to the extreme) .... especialy Acqua Accelerator and Shiage who are no longer considered villains i guess.
But none of them can be considered the perfect villain for Touma. Like the Joker to Batman, or Moriarty to Sherlock.

...Or maybe Animes just aren't used to the idea of the perfect villain? It's usually just strong rivalry.
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Old 2011-06-14, 09:51   Link #11230
zaeraal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
The thing about Touma is that he is a 'weak' hero; to be exact he doesn't have a strong power like many other shounen heroes. For powerful characters, there's nothing particularly impressive when they stand against a powerful foe because well, you expect them to be able to do it. There's nothing heroic because it's normal for such characters. But that's not the case for Touma.

Of course now we know that there's something else in him, but that doesn't change anything imo because what the Author is getting at is that Touma's character is not defined by the power he wields. I don't know why it has taken me so long to realized this; if Touma was only able to do what he does because he had Imagine Breaker, then in situations where Imagine Breaker is useless, he wouldn't be able to bring out his courage- But that's not the case isn't it?
Yeah Touma is capable of fighting without IB, by using logic and courage (and a lot of unnecesary talk). But in most fights he rely up purely on IB and the "punch to face ending". Though I can't consider his power as "weak" because there are different powers - offensive, supportive and defensive and each has separate handling.
If you put it on a scale 1-10 it would be like this:
1 - offensive (not counting the on hit KO here)
8 - supportive (dispels anything, but can't do boost, nor heal)
9 - defensive (blocks everything supernatural, but not normal attacks)
overall - 6 (not that bad)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Kamachi tried to instill the same values into Mikoto, as we have seen with Railgun, but he has never given her a chance to back up her words. She has never been in a dangerous situation where she is only a 'normal' girl.
Fight with Frenda. Mikoto got her ass kicked when Frenda bluffed with the exploding gas.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
But Touma isn't a perfect hero... Not yet at least... Because Kamachi has forgotten the basic rule and that is every Hero needs a perfect Villain; Someone who is his mirror opposite, the ideal foil, the one that matches him in every way and for god sake won't become his friend or rival =_=
All his enemies were turned into his rivals (accel) or friends (the rest)
But I agree, he needs an enemy he is unable to beat, it would make thinghts more interesting. (Not counting Kanzaki, Aqua, Tsuchimikado and other not-really-villains here)
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Old 2011-06-14, 10:00   Link #11231
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zaeraal View Post
Yeah Touma is capable of fighting without IB, by using logic and courage (and a lot of unnecesary talk). But in most fights he rely up purely on IB and the "punch to face ending". Though I can't consider his power as "weak" because there are different powers - offensive, supportive and defensive and each has separate handling.
If you put it on a scale 1-10 it would be like this:
1 - offensive (not counting the on hit KO here)
8 - supportive (dispels anything, but can't do boost, nor heal)
9 - defensive (blocks everything supernatural, but not normal attacks)
overall - 6 (not that bad)
Touma only relies on his resourcefulness when his Imagine breaker is useless. Otherwise he's as subtle as a brick.


Quote:
Originally Posted by zaeraal View Post
Fight with Frenda. Mikoto got her ass kicked when Frenda bluffed with the exploding gas.
Sorry, I've meant to add that one line- "where she is only a 'normal' girl... And succeed even without her powers."

Kamachi makes it very clear; no points for half-done jobs. In the end she still uses her powers to win.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zaeraal View Post
All his enemies were turned into his rivals (accel) or friends (the rest)
But I agree, he needs an enemy he is unable to beat, it would make thinghs more interesting. (Not counting Kanzaki, Aqua, Tsuchimikado and other not-really-villains here)
It's not only unable to beat- He has tons of enemy that he's unable to beat physically. But someone that can match his thinking and is the same level as him.

Touma's ideal villain has to be a normal human.
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Old 2011-06-14, 10:01   Link #11232
Miraluka
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Fiamma resembles Touma more than his others eventual enemies, heck even both sounds similar, I hope to see this lonely guy returning as a main character and as Touma's main rival, doesn't need to be a villain. Also it will add fun seeing Accelerator going jealous that his ideal hero's rival isn't Accelerator himself .

Accelerator wanted redemption and met Last Order at the begin of his path, Touma has various people he can call a friend, Shiage stood by himself and even got a girlfriend, but... Fiamma sure is now the most lonely person in this world...
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Old 2011-06-14, 10:19   Link #11233
NightGale
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilfriback View Post
Fiamma' s 'Third Arm' moves in accord to Fiamma's right hand moves, he doesn't have the proper medium but still is there.

Touma didn't negated the attack as if he had the IB he cut it into a half, if its a "residual power" then Fiamma would never had to release a large amount of his power output to overwhelm it.
Ehmm sorry, but i meant the other way around, the residual power is the IB arm that Fiamma had been turning into an artifact, and the true power or source is Touma existence itself, therefore what cut that attack in half was the IB power that was oozing out of Touma at the moment his right hand(arm) was missing. Afterwards Touma supressed that "invisible power" inside him and restored his arm, sealing it and returning IB to itīs normal output... Or at least thatīs how i interpret it.

As for Fiamma, while that is true and like you said is not a proper medium, it could be something like it feels more natural to him to move his arm in order to "visualize" the movement of the Third Arm... when Aleister cut of his right arm, it may have been a bit unstable(though, it was originally like that), but he could still use it, though he lost miserably,xD.
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Old 2011-06-14, 10:22   Link #11234
zaeraal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Sorry, I've meant to add that one line- "where she is only a 'normal' girl... And succeed even without her powers."

Kamachi makes it very clear; no points for half-done jobs. In the end she still uses her powers to win.
Oh what I said above was reffered to Mikoto -> Mikoto got her ass kicked during the fight with Frenda, when Frenda bluffed about the exploding gas. 90% of Mikoto injuries were because of that bluff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
It's not only unable to beat- He has tons of enemy that he's unable to beat physically. But someone that can match his thinking and is the same level as him.

Touma's ideal villain has to be a normal human.
Hmm Saten.. just joking. But there aren't many "normal" people in index, most of those that are there are magicians or espers or other super powerfull people. But if you count "powerless" people as level 0's or crazy scientists or maybe some failure magicians, then there are some chances for a good villain, capable of beating Touma, but none of those I can remember really fit into the "bad guy" role. And I am not sure what characteristics should a Touma-foil have - Touma stated that he does not care about esper powers nor magic, he is fine with normal life, so a foil would be someone normal trying to to get some powers even by sacrificing humankind?

What about Aleister - maybe he wants to become an esper, but can't because human brain stops evolving after 20 years of life.
NOTE: magicians don't really have powers, they borrow it from other beings, only espers have power coming from their body.
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Old 2011-06-14, 10:26   Link #11235
Miraluka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NightGale View Post
Ehmm sorry, but i meant the other way around, the residual power is the IB arm that Fiamma had been turning into an artifact, and the true power or source is Touma existence itself, therefore what cut that attack in half was the IB power that was oozing out of Touma at the moment his right hand(arm) was missing. Afterwards Touma supressed that "invisible power" inside him and restored his arm, sealing it and returning IB to itīs normal output... Or at least thatīs how i interpret it.
I interpret it as a trinity in Touma:
1. The "invisible thing".
2. Touma's real power which is greater than 1 enough to crush it.
3. IB which acts as a lock for 2 while is restraining 1.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NightGale View Post
As for Fiamma, while that is true and like you said is not a proper medium, it could be something like it feels more natural to him to move his arm in order to "visualize" the movement of the Third Arm... when Aleister cut of his right arm, it may have been a bit unstable(though, it was originally like that), but he could still use it, though he lost miserably,xD.
It has his own blood as a medium, yeah, very unstable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zaeraal View Post
NOTE: magicians don't really have powers, they borrow it from other beings, only espers have power coming from their body.
At certain point they don't so anymore and just use different rules for thei own power.
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Old 2011-06-14, 13:04   Link #11236
Breidaluk
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talking again about the topic of fiamma using blood as a medium you can say that touma did the same thing in deep blood arc when he loses his arm because of izzard, and that would be a thing that touma and fiamma are similar regarding their right hands
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Old 2011-06-14, 13:09   Link #11237
Okashira
Honos628
 
 
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Quote:
“Don’t worry. I take pride in my ability to fit things so large in my mouth that it surprises everyone around me. And I don’t mind if you imagine that scene in an indecent way.”

After saying something incomprehensible as usual, Lessar bit into the three-layer hamburger. The large piece of food bent into a wide V-shape with Lessar’s mouth in the middle.

Immediately afterwards, the mass of ground beef shot out of the opposite side of the burger than Lessar was biting into. The juicy hamburger landed on Kamijou’s school uniform.

“…”

There was a short silence.

Kamijou looked between his clothes and Lessar’s face with a look of regret on his face.

And then Lessar spoke up.

“Th-this is my chance!! I’ll pay for it with my body!!”

“Why are there stars shining in your eyes as you lick your lips!? You haven’t changed your ways at all!!”
From the last time I checked, part 1 chapter 5 from vol 21 was updated and 2 parts of volume 5, chapter 3 and 1 part of Chapter 3, volume 4 were updated as well, the translators are just on fire.
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Old 2011-06-14, 13:23   Link #11238
Miraluka
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Oh Lessar, lovely and pervert as usual .
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Old 2011-06-14, 13:50   Link #11239
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Breidaluk View Post
talking again about the topic of fiamma using blood as a medium you can say that touma did the same thing in deep blood arc when he loses his arm because of izzard, and that would be a thing that touma and fiamma are similar regarding their right hands
Wasn't that more of because Izzard went nuts and pretty much made the Dragon appear?
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Old 2011-06-14, 14:58   Link #11240
Breidaluk
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it could be but touma could have used without realising the true nature of his power, that no one but aleiter knows (until now). After all Fiamma told that his right hand and his were similar.
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