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Old 2011-06-13, 16:25   Link #61
Hagoshod
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuroi Sabato View Post
So why do you think Madoka had to kill herself?
Except... Madoka never killed herself?

It's not even like she tried to kill herself to escape the system and inadvertently became God in the process. Her intended solution was "Fuck the rules; I wanna be God."

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Originally Posted by Kuroi Sabato View Post
Simple. Because she's also not an exception and that's why her wish was well thought out
That's just to point, though.

Prior to episode 12, it didn't matter how carefully you thought about your wish.

It didn't matter how selfless your intentions were.

Having Kyubey grant your wish always backfires and always brings some form of harm to the people you're trying to protect. That's the entire thesis of the Magical Girl system. The only possible way out is death, and if Shadow Mami and Shadow Kyoko are any indication, apparently not even that can save you in the manga's universe.

You even have the scene where Mami explains using your wish for someone else is the worst thing you can do, and the Sayaka scenario pretty much proves her hypothesis.

Saying "Well no one else thought about their wish carefully enough before" is not only insulting to eons of previous Magical Girls (i.e. it implies they were all shortsighted idiots), it completely contradicts the story's primary theme. The show even openly admits that if Madoka had used the exact same wish in some other universe, it would have been too ridiculous for Kyubey to grant if it weren't for the random Karmic Destiny clause.

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Originally Posted by Kuroi Sabato View Post
Most of the statements in your argument start with the word "assuming." That's kind of what I'm talking about.

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Originally Posted by Kuroi Sabato View Post
it's also not an all is bright and sunshines/ponies/rainbows ending.
I've actually always praised the ending for being mature enough to acknowledge evil can never be truly defeated, but it doesn't make up for the big stupid acid trip the story went through to get there.

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Originally Posted by Kagayaki View Post
Nah, people in the ep 10 discussion thread saw that Madoka was getting more powerful
And those people used wild speculation. I've been saying that since episode 10 aired. What Madoka-Becoming-God-Makes-Sense supporters don't realize is what they perceive of episode 10 and what's actually shown in episode 10 are radically different things.
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Old 2011-06-13, 17:01   Link #62
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Originally Posted by Hagoshod View Post
Except... Madoka never killed herself?

It's not even like she tried to kill herself to escape the system and inadvertently became God in the process. Her intended solution was "Fuck the rules; I wanna be God."
Stopped after reading this. It's painfully obvious you didn't pay attention to the episode. I mean how can someone miss Madoka killing herself in ep12 when it was shown clearly?

"Not even tried to kill herself" ummm... yeaaaaahhhhh
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Homura: Die monster! You don't belong in this world!
Kyubey: It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by humans who wish to pay me tribute.
Homura: Tribute? You steal girls's souls, and make them your slaves!
Kyubey: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.
Homura: Your words are as empty as your soul! Lolis ill-needs a savior such as you!
Kyubey: What is a loli? A miserable little pile of moe! But enough talk...have at you!
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Old 2011-06-13, 17:17   Link #63
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Originally Posted by Hagoshod View Post
Having Kyubey grant your wish always backfires and always brings some form of harm to the people you're trying to protect. That's the entire thesis of the Magical Girl system. The only possible way out is death, and if Shadow Mami and Shadow Kyoko are any indication, apparently not even that can save you in the manga's universe.

You even have the scene where Mami explains using your wish for someone else is the worst thing you can do, and the Sayaka scenario pretty much proves her hypothesis.
The wish-granting process wasn't rigged. One of the overarching themes in the show was that hope and despair are always balanced.

So none of the wishes "backfired". They left the girls in the same state they were before. Mami was lonely before, and she was lonely afterwards. Kyousuke wasn't in love with Sayaka before, and he wasn't in love with her afterwards. And Homura was literally in the same time and place she was before.

Mami, of course, doesn't realize that her own wish is just as ineffective.

What was rigged was that these girls were now in the dead-end existence of being a magical girl. Which was a complete dead end, as you could not avoid using up your magical power and becoming a witch.

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Originally Posted by Hagoshod View Post
Saying "Well no one else thought about their wish carefully enough before" is not only insulting to eons of previous Magical Girls (i.e. it implies they were all shortsighted idiots), it completely contradicts the story's primary theme. The show even openly admits that if Madoka had used the exact same wish in some other universe, it would have been too ridiculous for Kyubey to grant if it weren't for the random Karmic Destiny clause.
No, all wishes have always been and will always be subject to the hope/despair balance. They change the world from one balanced state to another balanced state. Madoka just had the chance to do a bigger reconfiguration than anyone else did.

Her world still has an equal amount of despair (the monsters) in order to balance out the despair she got rid of via her wish.

Nothing rules out the chance that there was some other magical girl who changed the system "before" Madoka or that some other magical girl will come along later and change the system "after" Madoka. I use "before" and "after" in quotes since these sorts of wishes are retroactive.

The magical girl process is still rigged, even in Madoka's new world. It is still a dead end. You're still destined to die, it's just that the despair you take with you in your death is dispersed as miasma (and later manifest into monsters) instead of turning you into a witch.

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Originally Posted by Hagoshod View Post
And those people used wild speculation. I've been saying that since episode 10 aired.
What, so even though some people guessed the ending, that still makes it an unbelievable twist? So the only endings that are ok are the ones where a large fraction of the audience can see them coming?

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Originally Posted by Hagoshod View Post
What Madoka-Becoming-God-Makes-Sense supporters don't realize is what they perceive of episode 10 and what's actually shown in episode 10 are radically different things.
This is not a particularly convincing sentence. I could just as well say, "What you don't realize is what you perceive in the series and what's actually shown in the series are radically different things." And I imagine that that would be equally unconvincing to you.
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Old 2011-06-13, 18:23   Link #64
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Talk about missing the point. She destroyed her own witchy soul gem in the end as well.
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Old 2011-06-13, 19:20   Link #65
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Originally Posted by Kuroi Sabato View Post
Stopped after reading this. It's painfully obvious you didn't pay attention to the episode. I mean how can someone miss Madoka killing herself in ep12 when it was shown clearly?
Oh. I thought you were referring to the general concept of Madoka abandoning her human identity at the beginning of the episode. Shedding your inconvenient mortal body to instantly and painlessly become God doesn't really register as a form of death to me.

I'm guessing you're referring to the omnipresent suicide scene with Good Madoka blowing up Bad Madoka. In that case, I'll retort with this: That event never would have happened in the first place if Madoka hadn't been suddenly capable of becoming God.

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Originally Posted by Kagayaki View Post
The wish-granting process wasn't rigged. One of the overarching themes in the show was that hope and despair are always balanced.
And for the first half of episode 12, before the plot goes back to acting like it wasn't written by Disney and shows off the new universe, this concept is absolutely thrown out the window in favor of Madoka literally sprinkling fairy dust everywhere and going HOPEHOPEHOPEEVERYONESHOULDDIEHAPPILYHOPEHOPEHOPE.

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Originally Posted by Kagayaki View Post
Nothing rules out the chance that there was some other magical girl who changed the system "before" Madoka or that some other magical girl will come along later and change the system "after" Madoka. I use "before" and "after" in quotes since these sorts of wishes are retroactive.
Remember that thing I said before about people using wild speculation to justify their stance?

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Originally Posted by Kagayaki View Post
The magical girl process is still rigged, even in Madoka's new world. It is still a dead end. You're still destined to die
Changing the system so that, instead of being cursed into becoming the very things they gave their lives to stopping, they share the same fate as... every regular, living human being on Earth is an objectively positive change for the Magical Girls. I'm not sure how you can say otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Kagayaki View Post
What, so even though some people guessed the ending, that still makes it an unbelievable twist? So the only endings that are ok are the ones where a large fraction of the audience can see them coming?
Yes, actually.

It's same logic as Johnny Depp warning beforehand that he's going to do an awful, out-of-place breakdance at the end of Alice in Wonderland doesn't change the fact that it's an awful, out-of-place breakdance.

Last edited by Hagoshod; 2011-06-13 at 20:43.
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Old 2011-06-13, 21:46   Link #66
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And for the first half of episode 12, before the plot goes back to acting like it wasn't written by Disney and shows off the new universe, this concept is absolutely thrown out the window in favor of Madoka literally sprinkling fairy dust everywhere and going HOPEHOPEHOPEEVERYONESHOULDDIEHAPPILYHOPEHOPEHOPE.
Except the concept was never thrown out, its still there. Madoka merely changed the balanced state of hope and despair to another state. Madoka gave an enormous amount of hope to the world by making witches no longer exist anymore. To counter that, all the negative emotions of humans form and become demons, and A LOT of demons form, if the ending is any indication.

Quote:
Changing the system so that, instead of being cursed into becoming the very things they gave their lives to stopping, they share the same fate as... every regular, living human being on Earth is an objectively positive change for the Magical Girls. I'm not sure how you can say otherwise.
Your forgetting that the magical girls still have Soul Gems, and that using magic and experiencing negative emotions still darkens their gem. It may be easier for magical girls to work together in this world, but they still rely on the grief cubes for survival, which probably means they still compete with each other. Being a magical girl can still mean a life of loneliness, and a life still filled with suffering. They are still fated to die, this time by fighting demons. Madoka's wish just slightly makes their lives easier, giving them a sliver of hope, by saving them right before they turn into witches.

You can't compare a magical girl's life to a normal human. They still go through all the suffering of the original system, with the exception of becoming witches.
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Old 2011-06-14, 01:07   Link #67
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Originally Posted by Hagoshod View Post
Oh. I thought you were referring to the general concept of Madoka abandoning her human identity at the beginning of the episode. Shedding your inconvenient mortal body to instantly and painlessly become God doesn't really register as a form of death to me.

I'm guessing you're referring to the omnipresent suicide scene with Good Madoka blowing up Bad Madoka. In that case, I'll retort with this: That event never would have happened in the first place if Madoka hadn't been suddenly capable of becoming God.
Majority of your complaint stems from Madoka being an "exception" to the rule and I've already proven she's not. You talk as if she didn't lose anything in the process. Losing her humanity is a big sacrifice on her part. Something that you apparently fail to realize. =/
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Homura: Die monster! You don't belong in this world!
Kyubey: It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by humans who wish to pay me tribute.
Homura: Tribute? You steal girls's souls, and make them your slaves!
Kyubey: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.
Homura: Your words are as empty as your soul! Lolis ill-needs a savior such as you!
Kyubey: What is a loli? A miserable little pile of moe! But enough talk...have at you!

Last edited by MartianMage; 2011-06-14 at 01:29.
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Old 2011-06-14, 01:33   Link #68
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Originally Posted by Hagoshod View Post
Remember that thing I said before about people using wild speculation to justify their stance?
Well your argument was that it would have been ridiculous that it had never happened before, and I was merely pointing out that nothing in the series contradicts it already having happened. That's not speculation at all.

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And for the first half of episode 12, before the plot goes back to acting like it wasn't written by Disney and shows off the new universe, this concept is absolutely thrown out the window in favor of Madoka literally sprinkling fairy dust everywhere and going HOPEHOPEHOPEEVERYONESHOULDDIEHAPPILYHOPEHOPEHOPE.

Changing the system so that, instead of being cursed into becoming the very things they gave their lives to stopping, they share the same fate as... every regular, living human being on Earth is an objectively positive change for the Magical Girls. I'm not sure how you can say otherwise.
It's not objectively positive, only subjectively so. Because the witches came from the magical girls, most viewers say that the witch and the magical girl share the same identity. They say that it's horrible that the girls now are killing their friends. This isn't actually the case though...

If you want to claim that individuals are somehow responsible for any of their actions, then you have to believe in free will.

If there is an entity formed out of materials that previously were a part of you, but does not share your free will, then that entity is not you. Clearly, the girls don't have free will anymore once they become witches. Alternatively, their personalities and thought patterns are unrecognizably altered. Either way, there's no way you can say that the witch and the girl were the same individual, or that the girl is responsible for anything the witch that came from her does.

If I were killed in a zombie apocalypse, and my corpse came back to life as a zombie and ate your brains, I don't think anyone would say that I had any moral connection to your brains being eaten. It doesn't matter how many of my outward traits the zombie retains. I didn't want to die and become a zombie, and I would never willingly kill you and eat your brains.

The same amount of despair that would have created a witch is now just going into creating monsters, which are still going to be equally dangerous and kill people. So the girls weren't responsible for what the witches did before, and they're still not responsible for what the monsters do afterwards. It's the same, although it's easier to fool yourself into thinking it's better.

Madoka using happy looking disney fairy dust to make this change doesn't alter the fact that she hasn't created a world that's objectively better.

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Originally Posted by Hagoshod View Post
It's same logic as Johnny Depp warning beforehand that he's going to do an awful, out-of-place breakdance at the end of Alice in Wonderland doesn't change the fact that it's an awful, out-of-place breakdance.
I completely agree with this, but I fail to see how it connects to what we were talking about. Please explain.
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Old 2011-06-14, 10:21   Link #69
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"Fuck the rules; I wanna be God."
not again. let's start teling reality apart from memes already. I understand Madoka's long hair and cool dress were spectacular, but I'm not sure if they are more related to reality than Kyousuke's shadow in Octavia's barrier.
I like this meme to an extent, but the whole Godoka thing gives life to a lot of misconceptions.

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It didn't matter how selfless your intentions were.

Having Kyubey grant your wish always backfires and always brings some form of harm to the people you're trying to protect.
Actually, it does.
While Kyuubey's talk about wishes bringing distortions to the world may have a point, the corruption thing does not seem written into the system itself. It's mostly that wishes are made without considering the whole situation (Kyouko speaks on it, too). And before you say that proper wish consideration didn't matter before ep 12, let's try and count all the wishes we've seen that were made with actual consideration. Er... I've got zero. You're dying, your friend has just died, your love interest is having a BSoD, your family is starving because nobody wants to give the slightest damn about your father's well-meaning words. What's not to hurry with a wish about?

Quote:
Saying "Well no one else thought about their wish carefully enough before" is not only insulting to eons of previous Magical Girls (i.e. it implies they were all shortsighted idiots)
Nope, they weren't idiots. They were humans. And teenage girls to boot. And it's still suspectable that Kyuubey may or may not deliberately choose the right moment for an offer once he gathers info on the candidate.

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You're still destined to die, it's just that the despair you take with you in your death is dispersed as miasma (and later manifest into monsters)
was it confirmed already, or is it another speculation? Sounds quite interesting. although being a magical girl now is a bit moe of a noble status. And if the miasma thing proves true, it means that magical girls themselves keep causing people the same problems they protect them from? That would make Madoka's sacrifice... bitter.

Quote:
Shedding your inconvenient mortal body to instantly and painlessly become God doesn't really register as a form of death to me.
While shedding your inconvenient mortal body to instantly and [ok, maybe not so] painlessly become a witch does?

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this concept is absolutely thrown out the window in favor of Madoka literally sprinkling fairy dust everywhere and going HOPEHOPEHOPEEVERYONESHOULDDIEHAPPILYHOPEHOPEHOPE.
That was the subtext of Madoka's wish - to throw the concept out of the window or, if that's not possible permanently, at least give it a sensible kick. Because by the time of contracting, she:
- had learnt about this concept
- hated it
- had all the reasons to
- and had the power to do at least something about it. So she did as much as she could in this situation. Madoka of ep 12 doesn't believe in hope painted pink - she chooses to believe in it despite what's happened, because the alternative is more than she could ever accept. Her "hope" speech delivered to Mami is, well, as much a "***K THIS SYSTEM" message as a kind and polite Japanese schoolgirl can word it.

Btw, are we starting the speculation reminiscence again? It's never too good to take the show's predictability seriously, especially if this show causes WMG that randomly hits the bullseye. Hey, Sayaka's witchdom was predicted from ep 1 - but should I remind you what that prediction was based on?
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Old 2011-06-14, 13:02   Link #70
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was it confirmed already, or is it another speculation?
AFAIK, there’s no official interpretation of the show’s ending, and I doubt there ever will be, so pretty much anything you say about it is your interpretation. I’ll try to explain why I think this one is the only one that makes sense though.

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if the miasma thing proves true, it means that magical girls themselves keep causing people the same problems they protect them from? That would make Madoka's sacrifice... bitter.
Since Madoka isn't actually omnipotent, the only result of her wish should be precisely what she asked for, in the same way that all the other girls got precisely what they asked for...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madoka
I want to erase every witch before they are born. Every witch from every world, from the past and the future, with my own hands.
So the only change in the structure of the universe should be that witches are destroyed before they are born. Accordingly, the fact that the demons now appear must directly result from the lack of witches. Whatever despair the witches fed off still exists, except it accumulates and gives rise to demons.

There are two possible cases here. Despair is either coming from magical girls or not coming from magical girls (or some combination of the two):

1) Humanity as a whole created the despair that fed the witches, so magical girls are fighting to protect humanity from its own evils. They're doing something good here, whether or not they become witches, since if magical girls didn't exist, there would just be demons instead of witches, but there would be nobody to fight them.

2) Despair in the world (and hence the demons) comes from the hope that magical girls create, so magical girls are the source of what they're trying to protect humanity from. Their existence is bad, even if they don't become witches, since if magical girls didn’t exist there would be no demons. This is what I was talking about in the part you quoted.

In both cases, or in any combination of the two, Madoka's wish isn't making magical girls fundamentally better or worse for the world. Unless she got something she didn't wish for, in which case I would agree with Hagoshod that the ending is inconsistent and poorly written.
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Old 2011-06-14, 15:10   Link #71
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So the only change in the structure of the universe should be that witches are destroyed before they are born. Accordingly, the fact that the demons now appear must directly result from the lack of witches. Whatever despair the witches fed off still exists, except it accumulates and gives rise to demons.
Yeah, I'm currently subscribing to this one as well.

Quote:
In both cases, or in any combination of the two, Madoka's wish isn't making magical girls fundamentally better or worse for the world.
Not quite, IMHO. In the first case, the system becomes, like I opt to say, much closer to the way Madoka viewed it originally when she met Mami. You get a wish, you pay the price by dedicating your life to fighting evil. Battles are dangerous (even if Madoka didn't realize the degree until ep 3), and the darkening of the Soul Gem... can't mean anything good in any case, right? Presumably you may die, too (and that's what Sayaka believed). But until that, you have a chance to do this world some good and play Batman until the end if you want.
So the biggest ink blob in that picture is really the witchdom issue that means you pay the price of gradual becoming monster unless you die before that. The life you accepted suddenly loses the meaning that might get you through even when all else in your life was failing (known to work for Mami to an extent, but sadly not for Sayaka). All the possible good you bring by fighting witches means significantly less as you've got all chances to become one and happily wreck all the havoc you managed to prevent before.
Take away this issue, and a Puella Magi's fate looks a bit better. There's also the soul gem issue, of course... but the white twerp is right, it's not too easy to find out by oneself. We don't even know if Mami, Kyouko and Sayaka know that in TL6 (Sayaka might have simply confessed to Kyousuke and get rejected, dangit ).
But if what you suggest is true, magical girls are REALLY in the same pile of euphemism-requiring substance as they were before (becoming miasma that will become a demon and hunt people is a witchdom with more stages involved), meaning WE WERE ULTIMATELY TROLLED AGAIN.

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Unless she got something she didn't wish for
Losing her physical self with no chance of recovery and being retconned out of her family (sans Tatsuya) and friends' (sans Homura) memories. Sure, she didn't wish for that. (sorry for the irony )

In fact, getting more than you wish or not in Madoka's case is the main question to solve in the whole Madokaism thing. But the show doesn't really give us evidence of powers underivable from the effects of her wish (although I wonder why we'd mind if it did - come to think of it, don't all magical girls get some magical gimmick based on the nature of their wish?) so far. Madoka's main achievement in this field is defining her wish well and getting exactly what she wished for, any subtext aside. And she confirms it herself that she considers her wish granted.
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Old 2011-06-17, 15:55   Link #72
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Finally got translated scans of Chapter 11: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=0XN5GOBI

Manga is more or less the same as the anime. Sayaka's funeral was omitted. The coolest change to me was in the Walpurgis fight. Dark familiar versions of Sayaka, Kyouko, and Mami were summoned.

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Old 2011-06-17, 18:04   Link #73
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So witches are transformed magical girls falling to despair while WN comes from magical girls who died, witch or not?

If true and they're not just shadows of some sort, this means it sucks even more to be a magical girl =(
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Old 2011-06-17, 18:06   Link #74
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Homura in the Manga version looks like Erika Furudo.
Also, WN is sort of the despair part of everyone, from her "uselessness" spreading towards others.
Basically, Mami, Kyouko & Sayaka were dead 'cause of Homura's presence, basically making it "useless" to save them. :P
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Old 2011-06-18, 06:03   Link #75
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Then again, the manga is written in broader strokes compared to the canon, so we should probably take it with a grain of salt.
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Old 2011-06-18, 21:17   Link #76
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I still prefer the manga's style of Homura's hair at the end, instead of the anime version.

It's more elegant, I say.
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Old 2011-06-18, 22:28   Link #77
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I still prefer the manga's style of Homura's hair at the end, instead of the anime version.

It's more elegant, I say.
I prefer her overall civilian design at the end of the manga... the Madoka inspired dress really works with the ribbons and her pigtails.
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Old 2011-06-23, 00:30   Link #78
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I prefer her overall civilian design at the end of the manga... the Madoka inspired dress really works with the ribbons and her pigtails.
It's actually part Madoka inspired and part Homura inspired.

See how she's wearing leggings and a black turtleneck/something underneath the main dress? Those are taken from the design of her own MG form.
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Old 2011-06-25, 12:26   Link #79
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The manga art is so beautiful. Homura, Mami and Kyoko are gorgeous in the manga. I'm actually fall in love with 3 of them after I read the manga version. Too bad that the manga going to end soon.
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Old 2011-06-28, 03:00   Link #80
Von Himmel
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Chapter 12 finally got translated
There's not much different than the anime, but there's an additional scenes right at the end. Just like what my friend told me once, 'friend is code in mahou shoujo for yuri :P'. One thing I realized from reading this chapter is that during Sayaka and Kamijou scene, Madoka state that she made it (the event) this way so that she can save Sayaka from turning into a witch. The event that she changed was probably how Kamijou never hurt his hand to begin with and thus making his relationship with Sayaka not happening...

....Still, this is pretty stupid considering that I can't think of another Sayaka's wish anymore other than saving Kyousuke
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