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Old 2004-11-11, 11:38   Link #21
7thMethuselah
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subcool
uhm...Isreal never fought an independence war o_O
what is now israel was a colony of Britain i believe, it was granted to them with the UN's aproval after the 2nd WW... They simply expanded their territory during the wars they fought with Egypt and their surrounding countries.
Not entirely correct.

What happened at the time is

1. Between 1900 and 1945 alot of jewish immigrants moved to Israel, at that time a colony assigned to Britain raising the jewish population from about 10 % to some 40 %. This immigration rush speeded up alot due to the Nazi Holocaust.
2. This lead to serious tensions between the Arab and the Jewish population which lead to serious fighting in which the British often intervened to break up the fighting militia's
3. In 1947 the UN devides the territory into an equal Palestine and Jewish half (the so-called UN Partition Plan). This plan was instantly rejected by the Palestines and this lead to the start of a guerilla war between the two.
4. In 1948 , on the same day the British abandon the colony, the Jewish claim independence, the US instatly recognises this.
5. In the days after the independence declaration (which was not recognised by the Palestines ) Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Iraq and a few other Arab countries invade the former colony in an attempt to eradicate the Jews.
6. Even though they are far stronger, the Arab nations lose the war, a war that'll last almost a year.
7. After this war (and clearly it is an Independence war ! ) Israel occupied alot more terrain that it was assigned by the UN, and alot of the Arab population was driven out of Israel, and never allowed to return (these are the people currently still living in the Gaza strip/West Bank refugee camps).

Alot more wars would follow after this one however, but only years and years later, wars in which Israel would conquer the gaza strip, the sinai desert (later given back to Egypt) the west bank, south lebanon (occupied to prevent missile attacks by terrorist groups, later unilaterally abandoned), etc ...


So as you can see, there was an independence war, since upon declaring independence they got invaded by almost every Arab nation around them... It was not an independence war against their former coloniser (like the US - Britain Independence war)
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Old 2004-11-12, 09:14   Link #22
Bun-kun
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Humans, when will we learn to just get along with each other. But as I see it, it's the Iraelis that are in the wrong. How are you going to leave an area for 2 thousand year then come back and claim its yours? That's like the American Indians demanding there land back in 2 thousand years. I just don't understand how we support one type of Apartheid and condemns another *sigh, *shrug
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Old 2004-11-12, 10:32   Link #23
Enron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bun-kun
Humans, when will we learn to just get along with each other. But as I see it, it's the Iraelis that are in the wrong. How are you going to leave an area for 2 thousand year then come back and claim its yours? That's like the American Indians demanding there land back in 2 thousand years. I just don't understand how we support one type of Apartheid and condemns another *sigh, *shrug
How are you gonna leave and then come back and claim it as yours? Because the Brits and the United Nations gave it to you, and because Europe sure as hell didn't what you (and by "you", i mean JEWS)

Jews have always been considered 2nd-class citizens in europe, and europeans were also always sorta jealous of the wealth that many jews amassed over the years. When the Nazis decided to do something about it after rampaging across the continent, many of the newly counquered nations were all too happy to hand them over. Heck, even after the war, there were thousands upon thousands of jewish refugees that were confined to refugee camps because NO EUROPEAN NATION WANTED THEM BACK. So now you have israel.

And as far as arafat goes, GOOD. That's one less terrorist. I imagine 'ol Arafat is probably feeling mighty toasty right about now where he's at.
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Old 2004-11-12, 11:10   Link #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enron
Jews have always been considered 2nd-class citizens in europe, and europeans were also always sorta jealous of the wealth that many jews amassed over the years. When the Nazis decided to do something about it after rampaging across the continent, many of the newly counquered nations were all too happy to hand them over. Heck, even after the war, there were thousands upon thousands of jewish refugees that were confined to refugee camps because NO EUROPEAN NATION WANTED THEM BACK. So now you have israel.

And as far as arafat goes, GOOD. That's one less terrorist. I imagine 'ol Arafat is probably feeling mighty toasty right about now where he's at.
You don't know a shit about Europe, right?
Europe has never been jealous at the jews, why would we be?
Seriously, jews have always been considered 2nd-class citizens? Get your info right.
Jews is by no means considered 2nd-class citizens. Where you live people may consider people 2nd-class citizens depending on race, but not in Europe.
Sure there are people that consider people to be worth more depending on race, but they are a minority.

That the nazis killed loads of jews say something about the nazis, but do not think all people in Europe are like the nazis!
And that statement that no country wanted them back is wrong, Sweden for exampel took care of some of the victims of the war.

Arafat is just as much terrorist as the U.S, actually less, as the U.S invades countrys without any good reason, while Arafat and PLO had (and has) a good reason.

Plz look at a map and realise, Europe is not one country. And get your history right and realise how many people Israel has made homeless.
War is not black and white as you seem to think.

BTW: Sharon is the terrorist, not Arafat.
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Old 2004-11-12, 12:02   Link #25
7thMethuselah
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enron
How are you gonna leave and then come back and claim it as yours? Because the Brits and the United Nations gave it to you, and because Europe sure as hell didn't what you (and by "you", i mean JEWS)

Jews have always been considered 2nd-class citizens in europe, and europeans were also always sorta jealous of the wealth that many jews amassed over the years. When the Nazis decided to do something about it after rampaging across the continent, many of the newly counquered nations were all too happy to hand them over. Heck, even after the war, there were thousands upon thousands of jewish refugees that were confined to refugee camps because NO EUROPEAN NATION WANTED THEM BACK. So now you have israel.
You forgot to mention that during WWII even America refused to take in the jews that were on the run. They did at first but after a while they stopped it. In fact most nations did so.
Besides, it is true that there was alot of anti-jew feeling between WWI and WWII but that was 50 years ago, so don't charge us with crimes we have nothing to do with. Besides, America isn't all that holy either, I don't think the black population in the US is being treated as equal citizens are they?

A reason why no european country wanted them back after the war is the fact that they weren't even able to provide food and shelter for their own population, so most nations weren't to happy to take in another few hungry mouths when they couldn't even fill the ones present.


About the nazi anti-jew feelings : consider the situation in Germany after WWI. At the end of WWI Germany was forced to pay insane amounts to the victors, the treaty which was forced onto them was based completely on revenge (the french president at the time is often blamed for being the one who wanted to take personal revenge on the germans.

Not only did Germany loose alot of it's territory, it has to pay all the WWI damage, incomes from certain industry and territories went to france, etc....
This took away all options to rebuild germany itself, which lead to a Germany and German population which was very poor. Now at the same time there are the jews , who have a keen eye for business, they are able to make good profits and are at that time rather wealthy.

Then we have the uprising of the nazi's, they were at first a socialist party who wanted to improve the conditions for the millions of poor laborors. Basically the nazi's ideologies were twofold
1. Nationalism : seeing as many countries had stolen land and money from them after WWI and the heavy cost to repay the damage, alot of germans hated anything non--german
2. Laborers first : many of these were poor, so the jews (a rich part of society) became an easy target

Combine these two with an excellent crowd manager (being Hitler) and it isn't all that weird that they became extremely popular. Combine that with the fact that the nazi's rule provided everyone with work, food and even entertainment.

However somewhere along the line the nazi's lost it and became more extreme, they wanted to get rid of the heavy debts and reclaim their lost lands. These feeling would escalate resulting in 1. a hostile take-over of the government 2. build-up to war to retake lost assets from WWI and 3. Blame the jews for everything, eventualy leading to the Holocaust.
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Old 2004-11-12, 13:25   Link #26
ChainLegacy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zappater
Arafat is just as much terrorist as the U.S, actually less, as the U.S invades countrys without any good reason, while Arafat and PLO had (and has) a good reason.
I don't agree with our war in Iraq or anything, but shut up. You can't honestly call a nation terrorist. There are too many good people here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 7thMethuselah
Besides, America isn't all that holy either, I don't think the black population in the US is being treated as equal citizens are they?
Well, that really depends on the area. Where I live, basically everyone is equal; the equality the US claims to sport.
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Old 2004-11-12, 13:38   Link #27
aahhsin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zappater
Arafat is just as much terrorist as the U.S, actually less, as the U.S invades countrys without any good reason, while Arafat and PLO had (and has) a good reason.
There's a perfectly good reason that Bush invaded Iraq. Just stop listening to Michael Moore.

Let's take a look from Bush's point of view. He knows that Iraq has been kicking out the UN inspectors since 1990 or so. He has no way to check if Saddamn had WMD or not. Naturally he became suspicious of Saddamn and decided to take the initiative.

He didn't know if there was WMDs or not, what if there were? Bush is not just doing this for oil, he felt it was crucial to U.S. safety. He didn't want to wait for answers, so instead he just made them. People act on what they believe, not what is nessarily true. By your logic, those damn Mongols musta been some insane terrorists. Or the Japanese invading Manchuria for "living space" oh oh oh how about Alexander the Great and his invasions to "Explore the World" (That and he really doesn't like the persians...)

I hope you people do realize all throughout 4000 years of written/recorded history the Jews have been persecuted and killed by nearly everyone on the planet. Nobody likes the Jews, they killed Jesus, who was strangely also a Jew. Think about it.

1. Egyptians inslave them
2. Romans thought they were terrorists
3. Persians didn't like them
4. Turks killed them
5. Arabs and Saladin made them wear a yellow badge (True, not only hitler did that)
6. Crusades killed off another couple thousands
7. The English kill off some Jews during the crusades
8. People blamed the Jews for the Black Death
9. The Pope kills off more Jews claiming they're the one's that killed Jesus
10. Holocaust
11. Stalin and his Iron Curtain erases some Jews from existance (Prague Trials)
12. Alfred Dreyfus in France
13. Saddamn
14. Arafat
15. Heck even the USA doesn't like the Jews, those bastards are running the Media here. Or so people claim, they make it seem the Jews are always the good guys and everyone else is the bad ones.

I gotta agree on something though, Sharon is the Terrorist. Arafat is just the nationalist.
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Old 2004-11-12, 13:55   Link #28
TheLaughingMan
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Hmmm, I have heard several statistics stating that anti-semitism is rising in europe. I know you can't put too much stock in statistics, but I have also had a chance to talk middle east politics with several europeans, and they were very anti Jewish and anti Israel. Of course one group can't speak for all, but the general feeling I got is: a lot of Europeans blame the Jews (and Bush) for the "rise" in terrorism. Lets not forget that some European countries have a very large number of Arab citizens, although I am not sure if that affects European's feelings on the matter.

Honestly, the Israelis are in a very tough situation. They are surrounded by nations that would love to see them "pushed into the sea". It has become a case of "do the ends justify the means".

Also, why don't other Arab countries give the Palestinians extended aid, or even a *gasp* piece of land? If many of the neighboring countries think the Palestinians have been so severely wronged, and maybe they have been, then why not offer more support instead of hating the West and Israel?
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Old 2004-11-12, 14:08   Link #29
aahhsin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLaughingMan
Hmmm, I have heard several statistics stating that anti-semitism is rising in europe. I know you can't put too much stock in statistics, but I have also had a chance to talk middle east politics with several europeans, and they were very anti Jewish and anti Israel. Of course one group can't speak for all, but the general feeling I got is: a lot of Europeans blame the Jews (and Bush) for the "rise" in terrorism. Lets not forget that some European countries have a very large number of Arab citizens, although I am not sure if that affects European's feelings on the matter.

Honestly, the Israelis are in a very tough situation. They are surrounded by nations that would love to see them "pushed into the sea". It has become a case of "do the ends justify the means".
Like I said, there's a huge history of not liking the Jews in the first place. 4000 years of hating them it's probably embedded into their genes by now. (It's just an expression, don't get your panties in a bunch claiming "I DON"T hATE TEH jeWs!"

Quote:
Also, why don't other Arab countries give the Palestinians extended aid, or even a *gasp* piece of land? If many of the neighboring countries think the Palestinians have been so severely wronged, and maybe they have been, then why not offer more support instead of hating the West and Israel?
That's just human nature. For example, if another city wants to build a nice new sewage system, but lacks the cash to do so. Thus they want to ask a loan from your city, but in order to get that loan your city needs to raise taxes.

who the hell wants their taxes to be raised for someone else's city?

Oh I just came back from teh Battle.net forums. Apparently the new way to talk shit to someone is to call them a Jew.
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Old 2004-11-12, 14:26   Link #30
TheLaughingMan
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On the other hand, I believe the current Israeli government acts too brashly. I mean it appears they don't even attempt to fake diplomacy. I think that's a huge turn off to the international community, where its all pomp and circumstance. That leads to another reason the Europeans would be pissed at Israel and Bush; both parties telling the European's worshipped UN "screw you". Although it seems pretty obvious no one listens to the UN.

I don't know, it's hard for me take an organization seriously when some members make money by selling goods to countries their organization has sanctioned. Putting Sudan, Libya and Cuba on the human rights seats doesn't impress me much, either.
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Old 2004-11-12, 14:32   Link #31
7thMethuselah
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLaughingMan
Hmmm, I have heard several statistics stating that anti-semitism is rising in europe. I know you can't put too much stock in statistics, but I have also had a chance to talk middle east politics with several europeans, and they were very anti Jewish and anti Israel. Of course one group can't speak for all, but the general feeling I got is: a lot of Europeans blame the Jews (and Bush) for the "rise" in terrorism
Allow me to explain the current feeling about jews and Arabs over here. It's important to understand that we don't see Jews and Israel as the same !

First, concerning the jews, in general it's not the jews that are being blamed for the mess over there but the Israeli's, (notice the difference!). We are mostly living peacefully with the jewish people in our country, and as far as I can tell, this goes more or less as well for neighbouring countries. There have been a few incidents vs jews but those are mostly isolated cases, the general population is not against jews.

When we are talking about the Israeli's however, many people aren't too positive about them, the fact that Israel often invades Palestine territories with tanks and bulldozers is seen very negatively. I must not that we do condemn the suicide bombings either. But those are often seen as a desperate and only means the Palestines have to react to Israeli agression. most europeans would agree that both Israel and Palestines have to stop the violence, but the general consensus is that Israel is the aggressor. (I know some have other visions but as far as my country goes, that's the general view)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLaughingMan
Lets not forget that some European countries have a very large number of Arab citizens, although I am not sure if that affects European's feelings on the matter.
Well as much as there is a difference between jews and israeli's, there is also a difference between the palestines (who more or less have our sympathy) and the islamic population living over here. In many countries in Europe the Islam and the moslims are currently being seen in a very negative light. If racism is on a rise (and I believe it is) then it is 99% focused on moslims not jews.

The reason for this is very simple : most moslims live in ghetto like parts of our cities, many are also unemployed, as a result more end up in crime and this combined with the international fundamental islamic terroristic groups, is starting to increase racism towards these people as they are often seen as the troublemakers in society. For Belgium for example it is a fact that many small criminals are immigrnats, but it's not because they are immigrants that they are criminals, it is due to the lack of chances to develop a decent life they have (this compared to natives), however not everyone is aware of that..;

A second thing which is causing troubles is the fact that these people have completely different values and habits than the average european, as a result this "conflict of cultures" is generating alot of tensions. Around here the general population is in favor of the idea "adapt or go back" which means we would ask them to learn the local language, adapt to our society (note this does NOT mean give up your own culture), etc or go back to the country you came from.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLaughingMan
Honestly, the Israelis are in a very tough situation. They are surrounded by nations that would love to see them "pushed into the sea". It has become a case of "do the ends justify the means".
Indeed, but the problem with such an attitude is that the hatred towards them will not decline but increase, so this attitude may serve them well in the short term but not in the long term, this goes for the palestines as well, but it is hard to be the one who puts the weapons down first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLaughingMan
Also, why don't other Arab countries give the Palestinians extended aid, or even a *gasp* piece of land? If many of the neighboring countries think the Palestinians have been so severely wronged, and maybe they have been, then why not offer more support instead of hating the West and Israel?
The Arab countries surrounding Israel have tried again and again to get rid of israel, but Israel's military is far more superior to their own, which lead to several defeats of Arabs armies in the several wars that have taken place between Arab countries and Israel.
Therefore some of them have started the path of negotiations rather than a military path (Egypt for example).

And the Arab countries do support the Palestines besides the military campaigns that were frequent in the past decades. For instance the PLO has always recieved lotsa money from Arab nations. However you should keep in mind that all these Arab countries aren't as united as they usually seem, notably Iraq has always been a problem (since up to the invasion) it was a secular state and not an islamic one.


Wow, long post, hope I didn't insult anyone ...
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Old 2004-11-12, 14:35   Link #32
Meow
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Y?ou cant stop the ARABS.. The reason why they hate each other is bcause they have different religion.
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Old 2004-11-12, 14:42   Link #33
TheLaughingMan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7thMethuselah
Allow me to explain the current feeling about jews and Arabs over here. It's important to understand that we don't see Jews and Israel as the same !

First, concerning the jews, in general it's not the jews that are being blamed for the mess over there but the Israeli's, (notice the difference!). We are mostly living peacefully with the jewish people in our country, and as far as I can tell, this goes more or less as well for neighbouring countries. There have been a few incidents vs jews but those are mostly isolated cases, the general population is not against jews.

When we are talking about the Israeli's however, many people aren't too positive about them, the fact that Israel often invades Palestine territories with tanks and bulldozers is seen very negatively. I must not that we do condemn the suicide bombings either. But those are often seen as a desperate and only means the Palestines have to react to Israeli agression. most europeans would agree that both Israel and Palestines have to stop the violence, but the general consensus is that Israel is the aggressor. (I know some have other visions but as far as my country goes, that's the general view)



Well as much as there is a difference between jews and israeli's, there is also a difference between the palestines (who more or less have our sympathy) and the islamic population living over here. In many countries in Europe the Islam and the moslims are currently being seen in a very negative light. If racism is on a rise (and I believe it is) then it is 99% focused on moslims not jews.

The reason for this is very simple : most moslims live in ghetto like parts of our cities, many are also unemployed, as a result more end up in crime and this combined with the international fundamental islamic terroristic groups, is starting to increase racism towards these people as they are often seen as the troublemakers in society. For Belgium for example it is a fact that many small criminals are immigrnats, but it's not because they are immigrants that they are criminals, it is due to the lack of chances to develop a decent life they have (this compared to natives), however not everyone is aware of that..;

A second thing which is causing troubles is the fact that these people have completely different values and habits than the average european, as a result this "conflict of cultures" is generating alot of tensions. Around here the general population is in favor of the idea "adapt or go back" which means we would ask them to learn the local language, adapt to our society (note this does NOT mean give up your own culture), etc or go back to the country you came from.




Indeed, but the problem with such an attitude is that the hatred towards them will not decline but increase, so this attitude may serve them well in the short term but not in the long term, this goes for the palestines as well, but it is hard to be the one who puts the weapons down first.



The Arab countries surrounding Israel have tried again and again to get rid of israel, but Israel's military is far more superior to their own, which lead to several defeats of Arabs armies in the several wars that have taken place between Arab countries and Israel.
Therefore some of them have started the path of negotiations rather than a military path (Egypt for example).

And the Arab countries do support the Palestines besides the military campaigns that were frequent in the past decades. For instance the PLO has always recieved lotsa money from Arab nations. However you should keep in mind that all these Arab countries aren't as united as they usually seem, notably Iraq has always been a problem (since up to the invasion) it was a secular state and not an islamic one.


Wow, long post, hope I didn't insult anyone ...
Well, thanks for sharing your perspective. Right now I don't have time to go over it in in detail, but I should add that the Europeans I talked to did make a distinction between "Jews" and "Israelis", though of course most Israelis are Jews.

Like I said in my second post, a majority of people think the Israeli government's methods are too heavy handed (to put it one way). As Europeans and Americans we should also remember, the Middle East culture and thinking are very different from what we are used. I would almost call it brutal.
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Old 2004-11-12, 14:45   Link #34
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Dont set criticism of isreals politic = antisemitism.
Thats not correct, the fact that israel happens to be a jewish staate has nothing to do with that.

There are antisemits in europe, but those are mostly skinheads, nazis and other scum like that. The reasons for their hate are not rational. They hate foreigners in general and specially jews (thats some sort of fucked up "tradition" it seems).
Of course if they would actualy talk about foreign politics (most are to stupid to read newspapers, so that wont happen too often) they would also bash on israel for that reason, but thats just unavoidable (not that they would sympathize with palestineans... they dont have much sympathy for anyone at all, just hate).

Now, if someone doesnt agree with israels politic, please dont equal them with those scumbags.
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Old 2004-11-12, 14:47   Link #35
7thMethuselah
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLaughingMan
Well, thanks for sharing your perspective. Right now I don't have time to go over it in in detail, but I should add that the Europeans I talked to did make a distinction between "Jews" and "Israelis", though of course most Israelis are Jews.
About the difference between jews and israeli's I mentioned in my post : by jews I mean people of jewish religion NOT living in Israel. And by Israeli's I meant all people living in Israel even the ones that aren't jewish. I hope this clarifies that.
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Old 2004-11-12, 14:51   Link #36
Bun-kun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aahhsin
There's a perfectly good reason that Bush invaded Iraq. Just stop listening to Michael Moore.

Let's take a look from Bush's point of view. He knows that Iraq has been kicking out the UN inspectors since 1990 or so. He has no way to check if Saddamn had WMD or not. Naturally he became suspicious of Saddamn and decided to take the initiative.

He didn't know if there was WMDs or not, what if there were? Bush is not just doing this for oil, he felt it was crucial to U.S. safety. He didn't want to wait for answers, so instead he just made them. People act on what they believe, not what is nessarily true. By your logic, those damn Mongols musta been some insane terrorists. Or the Japanese invading Manchuria for "living space" oh oh oh how about Alexander the Great and his invasions to "Explore the World" (That and he really doesn't like the persians...)

I hope you people do realize all throughout 4000 years of written/recorded history the Jews have been persecuted and killed by nearly everyone on the planet. Nobody likes the Jews, they killed Jesus, who was strangely also a Jew. Think about it.

1. Egyptians inslave them
2. Romans thought they were terrorists
3. Persians didn't like them
4. Turks killed them
5. Arabs and Saladin made them wear a yellow badge (True, not only hitler did that)
6. Crusades killed off another couple thousands
7. The English kill off some Jews during the crusades
8. People blamed the Jews for the Black Death
9. The Pope kills off more Jews claiming they're the one's that killed Jesus
10. Holocaust
11. Stalin and his Iron Curtain erases some Jews from existance (Prague Trials)
12. Alfred Dreyfus in France
13. Saddamn
14. Arafat
15. Heck even the USA doesn't like the Jews, those bastards are running the Media here. Or so people claim, they make it seem the Jews are always the good guys and everyone else is the bad ones.

I gotta agree on something though, Sharon is the Terrorist. Arafat is just the nationalist.
Hmm Why would Iraq turn away inspectors, misleading the world into thinking they had WMD (which they don't have, I'll take that back when we find some) ? Just look to their neighbor, our allied on the War on Terrorism, Iran. Iran hates Iraq, Iran hated Saddam Hussien. Saddam seeing that Iran might have the campablity to attacking his country again mislead the world into thinking he had WMDs. IMO Saddam turn away the inspector because he didn't want the world to know that he didn't really have WMD, if the world fines out he didn't then Iran would attack. Too bad he miscalculated and didn't factor the Trigger Happpy, Bomb dropping cowboy from the whitehouse to take him out. lol I like to ask Bush one question, Who Would Jesus Bomb.

Now as for the Jews, okay so you've been persecuted for thousands of years, so now it's okay to persecute others and chase them out of their land. Hypocrisy! As with many (not all) ppl who fellows religion.
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Old 2004-11-12, 15:11   Link #37
7thMethuselah
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bun-kun
Hmm Why would Iraq turn away inspectors, misleading the world into thinking they had WMD (which they don't have, I'll take that back when we find some) ? Just look to their neighbor, our allied on the War on Terrorism, Iran. Iran hates Iraq, Iran hated Saddam Hussien. Saddam seeing that Iran might have the campablity to attacking his country again mislead the world into thinking he had WMDs. IMO Saddam turn away the inspector because he didn't want the world to know that he didn't really have WMD, if the world fines out he didn't then Iran would attack. Too bad he miscalculated and didn't factor the Trigger Happpy, Bomb dropping cowboy from the whitehouse to take him out.
I'd like to add a few comments

1. Personally I believe that Saddam allready knew he was gonna get his ass invaded anyhow so he saw no reason to expose even more of his military programs and abilities

2. While no WMD were found there was clear evidence that if the UN Sanctions would ever be dropped, Saddam would quickly develop new WMD again. Plans to rebuild his former amry strength including the biological and chemical weapons were ready. But off course due to the UN sanctions, his options were limited and most of his arsenal was destroyed after the first Gulf War.

3. Detail perhaps but it was Saddam who invaded Iran and not the other way around. What he tried to do was capture the Irani oil fields. You should know that 80-90% of the Irani oil fields are located at the border with Iran. Saddam hoped he could seize those, hold them long enough to make sure the Irani's would run outta money, and then permanently claim them as his own, it turned out differently however.

4. About trigger happy Bob in the White House : Saddam did miscalculate seriously once before with senior president Bush. When he invaded Kuwait (due to chances in the oil price, which lead to decreased funds for him) he anticipated that the US would not intervene as they (Iraq and the US) has been more or less on friendly basis before. However, serious error on his part, he got control over too much of the oil and could thus influence the price too much, so father Bush did retaliate.
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Old 2004-11-12, 15:27   Link #38
Kamui4356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bun-kun
Hmm Why would Iraq turn away inspectors, misleading the world into thinking they had WMD (which they don't have, I'll take that back when we find some) ? Just look to their neighbor, our allied on the War on Terrorism, Iran. Iran hates Iraq, Iran hated Saddam Hussien. Saddam seeing that Iran might have the campablity to attacking his country again mislead the world into thinking he had WMDs. IMO Saddam turn away the inspector because he didn't want the world to know that he didn't really have WMD, if the world fines out he didn't then Iran would attack. Too bad he miscalculated and didn't factor the Trigger Happpy, Bomb dropping cowboy from the whitehouse to take him out. lol I like to ask Bush one question, Who Would Jesus Bomb.
That's a good point. After the first gulf war, a decade of sanctions, and saddam killing all his competent commanders; the Iraqi military was woefully unprepared to defend the country. Even our poorly planned invasion worked, despite the iraqis succeeding in cutting our supply lines. Without the threat of chemical and biological weapons, the only thing preventing an iranian invasion of iraq was the US presence in the region, and no one wants to depend on the presence of one enemy to deter another from attacking. Americans, including myself unfortunatly, have a tendency to think that just because we have the worlds most powerful military, that every other country has to consider us a primary factor in their foriegn policies. Now it's forgiveable that I do it, as I'm just a lazy otaku posting on a forum, but when our leaders do it, it causes major problems. Of course even if Iraq had cooperated fully with the UN, bush would have found another excuse, or just said the hell with it, I don't need a reason.

Now getting to the Israeli-palastinian issue, the Israelis are not the aggressor, but whether or not peace comes is more dependent on their actions than those of the palastinians. If the israelis were to pull out from the west bank and gaza strip completely including all the settlers, now would be a good time too thanks to arafat's death, the palastinians would then have what they wanted, their own country. Now most palastinians would be happy with that and even if the extremists wanted to continue the assult, they'd lose popular support from the palastinian people. If they managed to convince the people of their rightiousness, and continued, the israelis could then turn to the UN, and say that they tried peace, but it isn't working and they need to send UN peacekeeper into palastine, or the Israelis would have to defend themselves. Of course no one would want to send peacekeepers in, so it would give israel a free hand to do what ever they want.
There are 2 potential problems with that though. It could make the arab nations surrounding israel think they've weakened from the suicide bombing, and inspire them to launch an invasion, but that isn't likely with the amount of US airpower in the region now. It could also cause a backlash among right wing factions in the israeli government, and may lead to a coup or outright civil war. Neither are very likely, but they are still of concern if Israel were to attempt such a plan.
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Old 2004-11-12, 15:43   Link #39
Kal-Rhael
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Well that's just great, he'll just get replaced by another moron, nothing will change,just wait and see
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Old 2004-11-12, 15:46   Link #40
OFFSPRiNGCo16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoSanninWa
You seem to think that the death of Arafat means that the warfare will get worse.
Well, I'm hopefull that with Arafat dead someone else will take over negotiations with Israel that is either more willing or better able to bring a cease-fire. This could be the beginning of peace, not its end.
I completely agree. I don't think that Arafat was a horrible guy, he did what he believed was right and a lot of people have opinions on that. I personally don't really like the guy but its hard to deny the fact he was open on some occasions for peace treaties and tried to keep order in a place where at times that can be hard. Hopefully the person to replace him will be more open to creating peace. Thats all anyone can hope for.
By the way, this is coming from a Jew.
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