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Old 2011-06-15, 15:37   Link #22901
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I seem to recall you providing a writeup of the Taiwan theory that was 99% understandable strictly through English information well before ep5 came out.
Me? Nope. I was surprised as everyone else when the theory was published here, and, to my knowledge, it happened several months after EP5. It happened even after my Kogane theory, which was also elaborated after EP5.

Before EP5 I didn't even understood the river was a railway really...
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Old 2011-06-15, 15:41   Link #22902
TheEagle
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Uh, having only read the first novel (after watching the anime) I came to the conclusion that the culprits were Genji and Nanjo. But everyone probably already knew that and I'm either gonna be ignored or spammed about my idiocy...
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Old 2011-06-15, 15:48   Link #22903
Swigun
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Actually Oliver proved that you could get to Taiwan from the text shown in EP3 alone.
Unfortunately the most vital part was initially minstraslated and corrected only after EP5, so for the english readers it was impossible to understand it until then. It was a very ambiguous text and probably most japanese misunderstood it too.
What part?
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Old 2011-06-15, 15:52   Link #22904
Sherringford
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Originally Posted by TheEagle View Post
Uh, having only read the first novel (after watching the anime) I came to the conclusion that the culprits were Genji and Nanjo. But everyone probably already knew that and I'm either gonna be ignored or spammed about my idiocy...
Most of us would disagree with that conclusion. What is your theory against them?
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Old 2011-06-15, 16:18   Link #22905
TheEagle
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Most of us would disagree with that conclusion. What is your theory against them?
Well, from the viewpoint that a witch can't possibly be the culprit, they were the ones that had no alibi for all of the murders together. They were also part of the last that died and went unchecked. Even if Genji isn't a culprit then Nanjo most certainly is due to the fact that he would be able to make a living companion seem dead. Then there's the motivation side of it: They were both the only two allowed in Kinzo's study and they were both friends to him, so they had something in common which could have been a reason for teaming up. As for their reason to murder, maybe a wish from Kinzo, or perhaps they were driven mad by his antics.
To be honest though, my main standing point would be the absence of their alibis.
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Old 2011-06-15, 16:26   Link #22906
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Swigun View Post
What part?
The part where the adults are discussing about the epitaph. At a certain point with the fixed translation it becomes clear that they all know what is the "beloved homeland".

Because of that the very next part where we learn that Eva went there it becomes clear that she went to that place they are all thinking about (and yet they don't mention). The brief description Eva made of that place was enough for Oliver (after a few researches) to narrow it down to only two possible places, one of which was Taiwan.


Before the translation was fixed, everyone would think that Eva went to Odawara and therefore nobody even started to think about which kind of place she went to.


EDIT: I guess you want to know for translation purposes, here's the sentence:

Quote:
`"............Odawara is definitely where he was born, `@`but I don't think this hometown Father loved was Odawara.`@` I believe all of us siblings are thinking of the same place."`@
Very subtle, but it completely changes everything that comes afterwards.
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Old 2011-06-15, 17:08   Link #22907
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I still think Tohya being Meta-Battler after he was released from the game is the most simple and logical solution.

Am i the only one?
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Old 2011-06-15, 18:07   Link #22908
cronnoponno
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Honestly when I watched the anime(which was before I read this), I figured this was one of those stories where the magic is ''real'', but it's catalyst to powering it was belief(not totally uncommon), meaning it wasn't some metaphor for some special warm fuzzy feeling, but happens in the most literal sense. Sort of like Fate/Stay night's magecraft, where it can only work if it is scientifically possible in reality, although FAR less useful than that as there had to be a literal method that could be performed by humans here and it had to have matching scenarios completely.

I thought Battler was aware of many Fantasy scenes, like when Beatrice told Battler about the candy that Beatrice threw in the air, which did happen by magic. But would alter reality if he could explain a human method, and then turn into something that could be naturally done. Hence Beatrice would have to slowly prove she exists by doing low level magic and then going much higher.


Needless to say this series really confused the hell out of me on my first go through.

I like the theory hagaruma made though, that's pretty close to what I started thinking halfway into Umineko.
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Old 2011-06-15, 19:12   Link #22909
Acerbus Wings
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Originally Posted by FirstTwilight View Post
I still think Tohya being Meta-Battler after he was released from the game is the most simple and logical solution.

Am i the only one?
I thought this idea too when ep 8 came out as a way to help explain meta-world's existence+the ending scene at house Fukuin+there was a beautiful comic someone did on pixiv that followed this idea but the author idea/metaphors galore make a strong argument against.
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Old 2011-06-15, 22:39   Link #22910
Kealym
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
If it was identical to the actual content it would be a major mindfuck. Personally I think this story would make a lot more sense if it was said straight out that no metaworld scenes exist in the messages and the forgeries alltogether. Unfortunately there are hints that metaworld scenes were actually narrated, and it makes all more complicated.

In the beginning (EP1) it seemed like the messages narrated stories from Maria's perspective and were written like a diary describing scenes in first person. But then it doesn't make any sense for her to write about the metaworld considering how rarely she shows up there.

I still can't find a certain explanation for what concern the 18 persons that were killed in the first two stories. It was hinted pretty well that they couldn't possibly have been written in a few days, so it would be incredibly strange if Ange wasn't there.
Somewhere along this same line, after EP6/7 (havent read 8 yet), I've been trying to correlate all the narrative elements of our Umineko to whatever was read bu humans in R-Prime. So you get things like
Meta-Battler = "intended audience?"
Lambdadelta = "editor who enables the books publication, keeps writer in check"?
Bernkastel = The INTERNET ?

It can be taken further - I think Erika's aggresive detective work is a result of the fandom's backlash against Battler being such a "go with teh flow" detective, interpreted as "The author has Battler being a lazy ass to keep us away from relevant information. A REAL detective would be duct-taping the vents and shit." Cue Erika.

Or, a simpler one - Meta Battler becoming Game Master equates to R-Prime Battler (Toya...?) finally either figuring the solution, or regaining his memories, thus he's qualified to write new stories because he knows the "rules and solution".

Getting to the point, I do wonder how the Blue / Red truth equates up into R-Prime. Like, when you go to buy your copy of 'Turn', is it literally printed as something like

"Rosa retrieved the two master keys from the envelope. Genji, Shannon, and Godha offered theirs as well, to help their standing in the eyes of Rosa, who took all five keys into Maria's purse.

There are only 5 Master keys, one for each servant.

"Are you satisfied now, Rosa oba-san? asked George dejectedly.
"Like a boss, George. Like. A. Boss."

Meanwhile, in the study..."


... ... that's not too unreasonable, actually... ...
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Old 2011-06-15, 23:04   Link #22911
AuraTwilight
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We know that there's "red ink" in the stories, atleast, so there's probably something like that.
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Old 2011-06-16, 03:14   Link #22912
Swigun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
cut
Uh, thanks for the explanation. I didn't understand you're talking of that part

In Italian translation we thought carefully how to render the Epitaph parts, especially in Ep3.
So I thought we missed something, fortunately it's not so XD
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Old 2011-06-20, 18:42   Link #22913
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The new Tip that was released recently is quite neat I have to say. At least I think it hasn't been translated already, so I decided to do so.
We actually get an answer for the mystery of the knock.
But be careful, it's something that shouldn't be read before EP8.

Spoiler for TIP Forgery No.XXX:


It's nice how Ryûkishi can't stop writing in the Beatrice persona...well I imagine it must be fun. But he's right...he really did put an eternal torture on us.
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Old 2011-06-20, 19:46   Link #22914
LyricalAura
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Thanks for the translation, haguruma.

Looking through the TIPS index on umineco.info, I realized that a couple of other new ones slipped under my radar. Did anybody ever translate "Jessica and the Electric Murder Fan" or "Rokkenjima Investigation File"?
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Old 2011-06-21, 17:19   Link #22915
Swigun
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Awesome Tip.

It's nice to have the mystery of the knock confirmed, even if it was pretty obvious.
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Old 2011-06-22, 08:35   Link #22916
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At some point you would figure there'd be a more interesting solution to things than "lol someone lied." I mean hell, if you want I can write a mystery where every interesting thing that happens was actually just lied about, but it'd kinda make me an asshole.
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Old 2011-06-22, 13:29   Link #22917
haguruma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
At some point you would figure there'd be a more interesting solution to things than "lol someone lied." I mean hell, if you want I can write a mystery where every interesting thing that happens was actually just lied about, but it'd kinda make me an asshole.
Well, it's not really unfair if you hint at it properly, but that is an endless discussion that has been fought countless times in the context of Umineko...

But it's not even that much if you think about it and consider the reason each person lied...it's a constant theme of Umineko after all, so it's bound to appear more often.
In the end lying is the basis of every impossible crime situation. Be it the culprit lying actively or witnesses/suspects lying to protect themselves and involutarily helping with the creation of the illusion. But "a lie being the only component of a crime" did not happen THAT often in Umineko.
We had the chained locked-room in EP1. Well okay, probably all of EP4. The knock at the door in EP5. But apart from that there is nothing that is basically only constructed by a lie, even though of course somebody lying is a part of the solution.
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Old 2011-06-22, 13:31   Link #22918
Used Can
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Again with the infamous "Land".
God fucking dammit. Stop teasing so much with it R07.

Anyway, just to clarify something, this TIP takes place before "Twilight," right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
We had the chained locked-room in EP1. Well okay, probably all of EP4. The knock at the door in EP5. But apart from that there is nothing that is basically only constructed by a lie, even though of course somebody lying is a part of the solution.
Actually, every murder involves a huge lie. Shkanon? Genji and Co. cooperating? Not to mention Shannon's and Kanon's deaths - especially when they are mentioned in Red.

Lies, damn lies and forgeries.
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Old 2011-06-22, 13:45   Link #22919
haguruma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Again with the infamous "Land".
God fucking dammit. Stop teasing so much with it R07.

Anyway, just to clarify something, this TIP takes place before "Twilight," right?
Considering how Ronove talks about Lady Bernkastel's game being considered the last of them, but having last seen Battler during Trinity (I would like to see how that would have turned out...all three women except Natsuhi becoming witches?!), I would assume that the games do not necessarily exist in a temporal order but happen however you view them.

Also, if you consider the fact that it says that the torment will continue for all eternity, I think that it implies that while the people in Ange/Yukari's 1998 might be gone, the Meta-Battler and Meta-Beato as well as all the others of course live on as long as we continue thinking about those theories...
So I think it can be seen as a parallel ending to Twilight.
It's similar to Saikoroshi-hen in Higurashi Rei where...
Spoiler for Saikoroshi-hen:
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Old 2011-06-22, 15:09   Link #22920
Renall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
We had the chained locked-room in EP1. Well okay, probably all of EP4. The knock at the door in EP5. But apart from that there is nothing that is basically only constructed by a lie, even though of course somebody lying is a part of the solution.
  • Shannon's presence in the shed in ep1 is constructed solely by a lie.
  • According to Will, the chain-locked room of ep1 is constructed by a lie.
  • Kanon's death in ep1 is a lie.
  • Most of ep3 is presumably genuine, at least in the sense that something other than a lie holds the puzzles together.
  • The door to the chapel in ep2 may have been locked solely because someone said it was.
  • As you said, essentially all of ep4 except the shed murders is basically a lie, or at least Battler has no means of distinguishing whether that is so.
  • The knock in ep5 is (apparently) a lie.
  • The solution to the Logic Error is predicated on misinformation, which is like a lie.
So while, yes, a number of the scenarios were constructed through actual creation of a physical mystery or use of sleight of hand, or a construct embellished into a mystery through lies, a goodly number of the mysteries were made to seem important or complicated, and the solution is simply that they didn't happen at all except in someone's lies. They may as well not even have talked about those in the meta-world, as the whole thing could've been dispensed with using Battler's ep3 garden battle logic: "That shit didn't happen."
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I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
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