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Old 2011-06-10, 14:58   Link #2981
Cherry_Lover
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[spoiler]
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharingan0619 View Post
heard he stopped a revolution, but in the end the people accused him of being the one who started the conflicted, and executed him on that hill of swords.
I don't know where you got the "stopped a revolution" bit from. Someone (who he had previously saved) started a war, and then used him as the fall guy, leading to his execution.

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I would've thought if he was at the peak of his power, he wouldn't have been so easily defeated. wouldn't u think so?
Well, it's quite possible that he surrendered to prevent further bloodshed.
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Old 2011-06-10, 23:36   Link #2982
sharingan0619
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
[spoiler]

I don't know where you got the "stopped a revolution" bit from. Someone (who he had previously saved) started a war, and then used him as the fall guy, leading to his execution.



Well, it's quite possible that he surrendered to prevent further bloodshed.
I got the "stopped a revolution", which is probably what u meant by war, but its still a revolution, from the visual novel.
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Old 2011-06-11, 21:33   Link #2983
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Which one is Saber's sword: Caliburn or Excalibur?
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Old 2011-06-11, 21:59   Link #2984
Icy.Tear
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Both.

Saber likes Caliburn better, but the sword most recently in her possession was Excalibur.
Caliburn is supposedly weaker, not being able to use the attack of The Sword of Promised Victory, but I have my doubts after it took 6 of Berserker's lives.
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Old 2011-06-11, 21:59   Link #2985
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhl88 View Post
Which one is Saber's sword: Caliburn or Excalibur?
Technically, both are Saber's swords. The only difference is she lost Caliburn in life, which is why she can't use it until Shirou traces it.
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Old 2011-06-12, 01:24   Link #2986
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RadiantBeam View Post
Technically, both are Saber's swords. The only difference is she lost Caliburn in life, which is why she can't use it until Shirou traces it.
As far as I know... Shirou traced Calibur and Avalon... wait did he trace Excalibur (Archer probably made a threat that if Saber will use Excalibur or something, he will definitely oppose it with projection)?
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Old 2011-06-12, 06:34   Link #2987
Tiresias
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Where did Shirou's aria Trace On came from? Did his father picked the words or had come to him in a dream or something? And when did he first use it?
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Old 2011-06-12, 08:38   Link #2988
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhl88 View Post
As far as I know... Shirou traced Calibur and Avalon... wait did he trace Excalibur (Archer probably made a threat that if Saber will use Excalibur or something, he will definitely oppose it with projection)?
The only time Shirou ever traced Excalibur was in HF, during the Normal End when he goes to destroy the Grail.
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Old 2011-06-12, 12:57   Link #2989
Cherry_Lover
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Originally Posted by sharingan0619 View Post
I got the "stopped a revolution", which is probably what u meant by war, but its still a revolution, from the visual novel.
Really? Where?
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Old 2011-06-12, 16:28   Link #2990
sharingan0619
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Really? Where?
I believe it was in the UBW route of course, but i cant remember exactly where unless i scroll through the whole route. Either it doesn't matter, it was a conflict.
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Old 2011-06-12, 17:48   Link #2991
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiresias View Post
Where did Shirou's aria Trace On came from? Did his father picked the words or had come to him in a dream or something? And when did he first use it?
Vs Gilgamesh in UBW.
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Old 2011-06-14, 17:39   Link #2992
sharingan0619
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhl88 View Post
Vs Gilgamesh in UBW.
well....in terms of when he says "trace on", i think viewers first heard him say it at school when he repaired the heater for the student council. In terms of the time when he actually used it to do something significant, i would think it was against berserker when he traced caliburn. Although it is different in each route as to when he "first" uses it.
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Old 2011-06-14, 23:45   Link #2993
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Two questions:

How exactly does a counter guardian's memories work in Alaya's service? The way I understand it, Alaya is like a greedy collector and doesnt want to damage its Heroic spirit collection and essentially clones its HS and CG when it sends them out. As such, a HS and CG cannot change once they are dead. However, its quite clear Archer changes drastically from his optimistic self to what he is in FSN but if the original doesnt actually go into combat, how does that work?

I've been told its kind of like an after action report where the CG reads the important stats of what happened but nothing else.

i.e.
Time summoned: 12th, June, 2052
1200 people killed.
Time elapsed: 24 Days, 12 hours, 36 seconds.
Times K&B traced: 82

So does he get depressed simply by seeing the report of # of people he kills as a CG... like a general getting depressed at the amount of people dieing vs a soldier seeing it up close?

Second question:

In HF, 5th day, we see Caster killing her master. She's definitely covered in Kuzukis blood with Rule Breaker out. However, it seems either she wasnt aware of her actions (as she was being controlled). Is this from the shadow or something else? I know her corpse is controlled somehow by Zouken but thats after she dies.
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Old 2011-06-15, 09:28   Link #2994
sharingan0619
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigilantia View Post
Two questions:

How exactly does a counter guardian's memories work in Alaya's service? The way I understand it, Alaya is like a greedy collector and doesnt want to damage its Heroic spirit collection and essentially clones its HS and CG when it sends them out. As such, a HS and CG cannot change once they are dead. However, its quite clear Archer changes drastically from his optimistic self to what he is in FSN but if the original doesnt actually go into combat, how does that work?

I've been told its kind of like an after action report where the CG reads the important stats of what happened but nothing else.

i.e.
Time summoned: 12th, June, 2052
1200 people killed.
Time elapsed: 24 Days, 12 hours, 36 seconds.
Times K&B traced: 82

So does he get depressed simply by seeing the report of # of people he kills as a CG... like a general getting depressed at the amount of people dieing vs a soldier seeing it up close?

Second question:

In HF, 5th day, we see Caster killing her master. She's definitely covered in Kuzukis blood with Rule Breaker out. However, it seems either she wasnt aware of her actions (as she was being controlled). Is this from the shadow or something else? I know her corpse is controlled somehow by Zouken but thats after she dies.
Alright, lets get to it.
The answer to your first question is that although shirou/archer was very much optimistic through his life to become a hero of justice during his lifetime, he was ALREADY changing when he was saving the world for the Xth time. As he witnessed the evils of mankind more and more, he grew ever more cynical. He became a Heroic spirit on that hill of swords to bet his chances on appearing in the 5ht grail war so that he could kill his younger self, hence UBW route, to halt the cycle. The other two routes he changes his mind.

The second question does not have an answer. From what i've read from interviews with Nasu, even he does not have a conclusive answer as to why caster betrayed Kazuki.
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Old 2011-06-16, 15:04   Link #2995
Cherry_Lover
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharingan0619 View Post
He became a Heroic spirit on that hill of swords to bet his chances on appearing in the 5ht grail war so that he could kill his younger self, hence UBW route, to halt the cycle. The other two routes he changes his mind.
No, he didn't.

It's stated quite explicitly that he became a Counter Guardian to save 100 or so people. The whole "killing Shirou" thing came later.
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Old 2011-06-16, 22:43   Link #2996
sharingan0619
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
No, he didn't.

It's stated quite explicitly that he became a Counter Guardian to save 100 or so people. The whole "killing Shirou" thing came later.

yeah, i was probably wrong about becoming a heroic spirit on the hill of swords

ok, then u explain how he came up with the plot of killing his younger self to end his service as a CG, IF counter guardians aren't suppose to retain their memories.
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Old 2011-06-17, 05:56   Link #2997
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Counter Guardians do retain their memories. He even gives Shirou a full explanation of the hell that he's gone through as a Counter Guardian in UBW. Granted, his memory of events may not be perfect (I do recall that whole "It's as if they read a report on it" thing, but can't remember from where), but he still very much remembers it, even if it's just a recap of the horrors he's had to commit.

It's Servants who aren't supposed to retain their memories, and why Archer's acceptance in UBW is ultimately worthless to him (but not Shirou).
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Old 2011-06-17, 15:42   Link #2998
sharingan0619
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Counter Guardians do retain their memories. He even gives Shirou a full explanation of the hell that he's gone through as a Counter Guardian in UBW. Granted, his memory of events may not be perfect (I do recall that whole "It's as if they read a report on it" thing, but can't remember from where), but he still very much remembers it, even if it's just a recap of the horrors he's had to commit.

It's Servants who aren't supposed to retain their memories, and why Archer's acceptance in UBW is ultimately worthless to him (but not Shirou).
If CGs retain their memories, then why is the acceptance in UBW worthless to him again?
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Old 2011-06-17, 15:50   Link #2999
Cherry_Lover
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They don't retain memories, but they do have records.

The way I've always heard it explained is this. When Archer is summoned, he looks back at the "records" of his time as a CG (and, because the Throne is outside of time, he has records of every event he will ever participate in) and sees nothing but constant killing. That causes him to think "fuck that".
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Old 2011-06-17, 16:02   Link #3000
GDB
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Originally Posted by sharingan0619 View Post
If CGs retain their memories, then why is the acceptance in UBW worthless to him again?
Because he's summoned as a Servant, not a Counter Guardian, when he accepts the path he's taken.

As for the records, it's still basically memories. They aren't as vivid as a normal memory, but it's not like he has a clipboard with his kill stats on it or anything. It's all in his mind.
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