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Old 2011-06-19, 14:52   Link #21
Archon_Wing
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Ugh! I fucking hate this stupid media-inspired stereotype.
Pretty much why both Yaoi and Yuri often turns me off. But I can't even blame this on anime, clearly depictions of LBGT over here is no better, regardless of media form. They're generally treating folks as fetish objects, as opposed to real people.

But it doesn't help, when I see such insulting sterotypes presented; it never helps well there's frequently a sex-offender like character in these things ever. Invoking the Depraved Homosexual trope is a great way to send me out the door.

As for the actual topic itself, I will randomly speculate that the majority of fanservice in anime is overwhelmingly focused on female characters to appeal to male watchers. So it's only natural that the only genre type that constantly features a lot of male fanservice is gonna experience some kind of saturation. Everyone needs to find a place for fap material, right?
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Old 2011-06-19, 22:30   Link #22
DragoonKain3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
A lot of anime shows (and some manga, light novels, and visual novels) that aren't yuri as a primary genre nonetheless have yuri as a secondary and/or implied element. Think of some major magical girl titles, for example.

And these yuri secondary elements are indeed intended to titillate the viewer.

Meanwhile, yaoi secondary elements in non-yaoi anime is typically there just for comedy (to use a recent example, consider the character of Fire Emblem in Tiger and Bunny).
Nah, you're just not looking at things the 'right way'. Implied yaoi is much more numerous than implied yuri, as mainstream shounen fighting and especially mecha are littered with these.

Reason being? Very few people bats an eyelash when two girls are overly friendly and/or has some very strong rivalry between the two, even those who are into yuri.

But when you have 2 guys who are "attached to the hip" inseparable best friends, or their friendship is torn apart by circumstances and they need to fight each other, or they were in separate sides in the first place but both of them are trying very hard to understand each other, all hats are off... whether any of this implied yaoi is intentional or not.

In essence, it's a matter how the shippers themselves look for the pairing they like. In my experience, it takes a lot less canon material for an average yaoi shipper to find a particular couple 'ship worthy' than for an average yuri shipper. At the very least, this would explain the dominance of yaoi doujin over yuri ones.

Just my 2 cents.
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Old 2011-06-20, 01:15   Link #23
ahelo
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Yaoi sells more because heterosexual anime is usually aimed at guys. Girls are left to feast on yaoi while guys have a choice of the normal ecchi and yuri. Ecchi aimed at females are rare anyway.
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Old 2011-06-20, 01:18   Link #24
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Originally Posted by ahelo View Post
Yaoi sells more because heterosexual anime is usually aimed at guys. Girls are left to feast on yaoi while guys have a choice of the normal ecchi and yuri. Ecchi aimed at females are rare anyway.
...And probably none to begin with!

Back to topic I think its cooler for yuri having smaller fanbase than yaoi. At least we all know yuri fanboys are actually had more interesting life outside the realms of internet, unlike most(if not all) yaoi fangirls.

Last edited by Kameruka; 2011-06-20 at 01:29.
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Old 2011-06-20, 04:33   Link #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
I'm a lesbian who likes yuri and strongly dislikes yaoi.

[...]

I'm rather outwardly feminine, and so is my fiancee.
I wonder if there's a relation.

Maybe some lesbians do not like Yuri because it's too feminine? And maybe they like Yaoi better because the male characters in yaoi do not behave like men (not even gay men) and the "seme" characters are basically butch lesbians with dicks?
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Old 2011-06-20, 05:45   Link #26
Natsuki Hyuga
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I love how some posters (thankfully still a few... Still.) here glorify their 'yuri fan' self while putting down fujoshis/BL fans. Yeah, we have no life, 24/7ing at loving mansex! certainly those who think like that have stalked us in RL, telescoping our hikkikomori/NEET time in our room!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Maybe some lesbians do not like Yuri because it's too feminine? And maybe they like Yaoi better because the male characters in yaoi do not behave like men (not even gay men) and the "seme" characters are basically butch lesbians with dicks?
Pardon me here, but I do have to ask on whether you have read, first handedly, considerable amount of BL to come across the concept of generalizing the likable (more known/popular/sells well/well received) BL mangas having characters not behaving like men?

As far as I know though, the ones that are well received in Japan are less likely the full throttle delicious, pretty and sexy R18 ones (... Of course that sells too ), but those which have dynamic relationship depiction with less... 'Girlish' characters (which pisses a lot of us too, haha, lots of us are runaways from shoujo mangas with terribly feminist heroines with one track persona) or the ones that creates fuzzy warm feeling. Or something on the line of that derivation.

... Although I do wonder what you mean by this. Acts girly? Think too much of romance? Act like a struck schoolgirl? Way of thinking comes across as how girls think? Angsting? Not direct? Hard to relate? Or what? Just because authors tend to focus the softer side of feelings doesn't always mean that the characters do not have a scratch of man(ly) behaviour... Plus I think a lot of them wanted to create a character, not men being manly for the sake of being 100% real anyway... I mean, being too real limits the potential for creating works that actually attracts the fans, that one goes to bara in any case.
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Old 2011-06-20, 05:52   Link #27
Kameruka
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Yaoi mangas are shoujo mangas with girly boys instead of real girls. End story.
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Old 2011-06-20, 05:57   Link #28
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If I wanted to imply they act girly I would have mentioned the uke rather than the seme.

Simply put their psychology, behavior and so on aren't really what you can usually find in a male person.

They are all after all portrayed by female writers for female readers and little they care about making them realistic. Note this is not a flaw, it's simply what this kind of stories are like. 99% of the girls in your typical harem anime aren't realistic either, but that's how people like them.

In the end there is a reason why yaoi and gay manga are two completely different things.
I've never heard of fujoshi that squeal over barazoku characters.
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Old 2011-06-20, 09:02   Link #29
DonQuigleone
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Eh. I don't really like either Yuri or Yaoi. Now in concept I really should like Yuri, I mean 2 girls is better then 1 right? But it just doesn't do anything for me. For one thing Yuri is almost entirely serious, too serious in fact. I've never seen a Yuri manga or Anime that didn't have significant amounts of drama. Now I'm not against dramatic romance, but I find Hetero does it for me more. I find it easier to empathise with the people in the relationship, while Yuri leaves me feeling ... flat. Basically Yuri is dull. Rarely has much of a sense of humour.

I don't like Yaoi either, I mean there no girls at all! However the primary reason I dislike Yaoi is that the plot lines are basically just Shoujo Smut, but where the girl is replaced with an Uke. I don't like that setup for shoujo, I'm not gonna like it anymore in an alternative setting (though I can see how it makes good fapping material, as erotica goes...)

Honestly though Yuri and Yaoi aren't just the same plots with boy and boy, and girl on girl. Yuri is basically just Moe tearfest with the dull male lead taken out, and yaoi is just Shoujo. So in the modern sense Yuri is Seinen, and Yaoi is Josei. Yaoi is so big, I expect, because seinen encompasses a much wider range of genres then Josei, while Josei is almost always drama and romance. Josei has a much higher output of Drama and Romance then Seinen Romance, so naturally that's going to have the knock on effect of more Yaoi.

It's interesting to note that this isn't a purely Japanese phenomenon, slash fiction has existed in the west since before anime and manga got imported, most famously Kirk/Spock. I can't really think of femalexfemale ever really getting the same attention.

Certainly on the surface girl on girl is more acceptable, but however you look at it, guy on guy gets way more attention, even if we look at subtext. This could also be a knock on effect of guys always being the main character, maybe some girls find it easier to empathise with a male lead. It's real weird.
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Old 2011-06-20, 10:01   Link #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
It's interesting to note that this isn't a purely Japanese phenomenon, slash fiction has existed in the west since before anime and manga got imported, most famously Kirk/Spock. I can't really think of femalexfemale ever really getting the same attention.

Certainly on the surface girl on girl is more acceptable, but however you look at it, guy on guy gets way more attention, even if we look at subtext. This could also be a knock on effect of guys always being the main character, maybe some girls find it easier to empathise with a male lead. It's real weird.
Is there some psychological or sociological reason why that's the case?
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Old 2011-06-20, 10:41   Link #31
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GL/Lesbian relationships are actually more mainstream and therefore not as getto-ized under the term Yuri the same way that Yaoi is (and therefore works labelled BL/Yaoi are greater in number).

Take Bleach, for example, and you have Yoruichi and that ninja corps captain. Take about every single time there's a bath scene in which one female character keeps making lewd suggestions/touch breasts to another female character, which is using lesbian subtext to pander to male gaze.

Even Pokémon, Digimon and other mainstream series are not shy on the lesbian subtext when at least one female character admire another female character (Kasumi[Misty]/Kanna[Lorelei/Prima], Miyako[Yolei]/Mimi, the bridge bunnies in Savers...). They also blush about males in much the same way, but when a male character admire another male character it is usually without blushing (and the main Ho Yay one can find is in rivalries instead).

Now, Media outlets have found out that they can get paid for gay subtext pandering to female gaze, so we get more of that such as Sherlock/John in Holmes, Merlin/Arthur in Merlin and so on, and because we are not used to getting so much at the same time we think it is a lot.

But in truth, there are about the same numbers involved.

Yaoi is just usually created by women for women and is about gay men. Stuff that is created by women is undervalued. One shouldn't create media for women because women will watch what one creates for men and not vice-versa and Titanic/insert popular chick flick was a fluke according to media moguls. Gay men are less acceptable than lesbian women in most cultures (which usually traditionally think that penetrative sex is the only real sex).

Yuri is created by wo/men for mostly men and some women and is about lesbian women. Often pandering to the male gaze.

Looking at the above, you can see why people talk about Yaoi more. For some it is threatening, for some it is surprising, for others it is weird and for yet another group it is an anomaly, so people talk a lot more about it, creating the illusion that there's more to yaoi than yuri.

With yuri it's like this: Heterosexual men like to fantasize about having a threeway with two women? And also about having their own personal porn show in the form of two women having sex? News at eleven!

Anyway, that's my guess on all of it.
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Old 2011-06-20, 10:58   Link #32
DonQuigleone
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@irisiel: Actual Yuri works tend to not be porn at all, and tend towards serious drama, whereas Yaoi tends to be exploitation (pseudo)porn. That's the difference. I suppose because Yuri gets swept up in moe tropes.
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Old 2011-06-20, 11:16   Link #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
@irisiel: Actual Yuri works tend to not be porn at all, and tend towards serious drama, whereas Yaoi tends to be exploitation (pseudo)porn. That's the difference. I suppose because Yuri gets swept up in moe tropes.
Drama-porn? Or maybe it's the belief that women cannot have sex without becoming emotional(ly attached).

But yeah, there's also the Madonna/Whore thing about the whole thing, especially when you realize that Yuri=Lily=Purity.

There's also a lot of Yaoi which are primarily about emotions, but some places seems to confuse how to classify them (it's sex, so it's yaoi, but it's primarily about emotions and not a lot of sex pages when looking at the total page count, so it's BL?).

Meh, at this point I'm pretty sure that there's plenty of both, especially doujins of Sailor Moon and Magic Knight Rayearth, that provides pornographic sex (seriously, I was introduced to Yuri by ways of a Minako/Usagi/Rei threesome, lets just say that Love Me Chain gained a new meaning in my impressionable thirteen year old mind). Might also be why I often think of yaoi/yuri to be pornographic counterparts of one another.
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Old 2011-06-20, 11:21   Link #34
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From past experiences, I can safely say that both yaoi and yuri fandoms have their fair share of bad apples. As a man, I will likely support yuri more than yaoi. However, I will not put yuri above hetero, especially after having witnessed displays of sheer intolerance and biggotry from the more vocal yuri portion of a certain anime fandom. Yes, some people's obsession over a yuri pairing does get very unhealthy.
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Old 2011-06-20, 12:40   Link #35
Jan-Poo
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From past experiences, I can safely say that both yaoi and yuri fandoms have their fair share of bad apples. As a man, I will likely support yuri more than yaoi. However, I will not put yuri above hetero, especially after having witnessed displays of sheer intolerance and biggotry from the more vocal yuri portion of a certain anime fandom. Yes, some people's obsession over a yuri pairing does get very unhealthy.
Nanoha and Fate?
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Old 2011-06-20, 12:44   Link #36
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Nanoha and Fate?
Exactly. You know people have gone way past the event horizon when they goes their way bullying writers for writing about anything but that pairing.
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Old 2011-06-20, 12:59   Link #37
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Well NanoFate only dominates because Tsuzuki fails at romance and keeps beating around the bush+ lack of viable choices

Besides, can you really have a magical girl show w/o yuri?
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Old 2011-06-20, 13:23   Link #38
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ha ha that's funny.... the magical girl genre was born from the context of the shojo manga but now the most famous and recent (Madoka, My-Hime and Nanoha) are all male oriented...

Strange how the world changes.

Anyway I think that Creamy Mami, Magical Emi, Persia and Minky Momo from the 80s are all yuri-free.


Come to think of it the series that first revolutionized the magical girl genre from a single heroine to a group heroines was Sailor Moon, which included a yuri couple albeit being decidedly female oriented.
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Old 2011-06-20, 13:25   Link #39
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Hah, does Mai-HiME qualify as a MG anime? I wonder. I always assumed that the popularity of yuri pairings in that was strictly due to the fact that the guys were just fail.

Well except Kazuya maybe, but who remembers him?
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Old 2011-06-20, 14:02   Link #40
risingstar3110
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@synaesthetic: where's your Yukari avatar... put it back >_<

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irisiel View Post
With yuri it's like this: Heterosexual men like to fantasize about having a threeway with two women? And also about having their own personal porn show in the form of two women having sex? News at eleven!
I can't say the same with all case of yuri manga/ anime. But i clearly want to state that: one of the reason that Heterosexual male like to ship on yuri pairings (in non-yuri show), is not because of what yous stated above. But because we like romance genre too. But sometime male characters for those shounen shows does not worthy enough to be with the girl(s) and hence shipping is there for those girls to have worthy romantic development is the preferred option. It's actual purely shipping, rather than for pornography fantasy purpose

Guys are very strict with male character in general, and there's only few of them who actually worthy enough to be an object of admiration. I can state an example with Angel Beats. Was shipping lots on Hinata x Yurippe until the anime ruined the character of Hinata hard (comparing to in the light novel). So that's why the shipping of YurippexTenshi or YurippexYusa was then preferred

Wondering if yaoi fangirl having the same mindset

PS: i probably write a bit more on yuri but probably later
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