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Old 2011-06-20, 14:25   Link #41
Irisiel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by risingstar3110 View Post
Wondering if yaoi fangirl having the same mindset
I've actually run across that a lot, mainly because female characters are so often side-lined and put out of mind as far as the plot is concerned, only to appear in the eleventh hour and marry the hero, making the readers/watchers go WTF?!

Take Harry Potter, for example. Many weren't pleased with Harry/Ginny because of the above, and many wondered which girl would be the best for Harry.

Then the question was flipped: Which character would Harry be the best boyfriend for?

People tried to twist in Ginny, Luna and Hermione, but many eventually settled on Ron, and on the Foe Yay side there was Draco. Mainly because Harry couldn't be bothered to comfort his two girlfriends after they cried when their loved ones had died, instead fleeing to Hermione and Ron, but he clearly dislikes when Hermione criticizes his most stupid ideas so he likes Ron a lot more.

In anime, it's often casts with many male characters, with a few female characters who don't do a lot, that gets this (Yuu Yuu Hakusho, Naruto, Bleach, Saint Seiya et cetera) in the fandom.

This is especially true when one takes into consideration that women (on average) judge women harsher than they do men, in the same way that men judge men harsher than they do women, so for the average Yaoi fangirl, a female character must prove themselves a lot before she considers the character worthy of one of her liked characters.

On the flip-side, bad writing seems to divide all shipping fronts.

With Nanoha, I think the near non-existence of Yuuno during the latter series had something to do with things. Which is a pity because he is a good character all the times that he shows up, in my opinion.
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Old 2011-06-20, 16:35   Link #42
karice67
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Honestly though Yuri and Yaoi aren't just the same plots with boy and boy, and girl on girl. Yuri is basically just Moe tearfest with the dull male lead taken out, and yaoi is just Shoujo. So in the modern sense Yuri is Seinen, and Yaoi is Josei. Yaoi is so big, I expect, because seinen encompasses a much wider range of genres then Josei, while Josei is almost always drama and romance. Josei has a much higher output of Drama and Romance then Seinen Romance, so naturally that's going to have the knock on effect of more Yaoi.
As I said before, NO. The English Wikipedia says that Josei is a demographic group whilst BL is a genre, but I'd say they're different but somewhat overlapping subgenres that can come under 'shoujo manga' (see translator Matt Thorn's comments on this). Stop trying to simplify things so much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irisiel View Post
Take Harry Potter, for example. Many weren't pleased with Harry/Ginny because of the above, and many wondered which girl would be the best for Harry.
OT...but seriously, was Ginny/Harry really that much of a surprise?
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Last edited by karice67; 2011-06-20 at 16:46.
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Old 2011-06-20, 20:17   Link #43
risingstar3110
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@Irisiel: but Yuuno's a (magical) ferret. If he end up with Nanoha, i don't think the good kid of Japan will ever see ferrets in the same way anymore D:

Sorry for the grammar in my last post. Only slept 3.5 hours last night, from 10 pm to 1:30 am..... Didn't sleep any since through so don't expect this one will be better

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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
OT...but seriously, was Ginny/Harry really that much of a surprise?
Harry Potter was my favorite book ever.... until chapter 5 crashed down and since then turned purely crap , and now i hate it with all my guts. I didn't even bother to read last book and let my brother spoiled the rest

But i can tell you that, yes, Ginny/Harry was coming out of nowhere. That's why the actress for Ginny(was it her name) for the movie series at first was not chosen really properly until they realized "Crap, she will end up with Harry"

PS: side question:
There's a myth on how real life lesbians really like Yuyuko and/or Yukari (Touhou) as character types. Since we have some open talk here.... can someone confirm me on that? Stereotype based on people's sexual orientation is no good. But i'm really curious here
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Old 2011-06-20, 21:32   Link #44
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
As I said before, NO. The English Wikipedia says that Josei is a demographic group whilst BL is a genre, but I'd say they're different but somewhat overlapping subgenres that can come under 'shoujo manga' (see translator Matt Thorn's comments on this). Stop trying to simplify things so much.
That's what I meant. Yaoi is aimed at Josei. Yuri is aimed at Seinen. Because of this they both take on tropes popular with those demographics. Yuri takes on moe characteristics, and Yaoi takes on the characteristics of more conventional smut manga (IE male being superior and forceful, female being subdued, being generally sexually explicit).
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Old 2011-06-20, 22:32   Link #45
Natsuki Hyuga
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Yuri takes on moe characteristics, and Yaoi takes on the characteristics of more conventional smut manga (IE male being superior and forceful, female being subdued, being generally sexually explicit).
Now this is just really simplifying on both genres, but I'll just say why on BL part, since uhh... I plead the third for not reading much GL for a while

Really though, I always think that it depends on the authors a lot of the time (and how their editors are... Uhhh, passionate enough or sweet enough, I guess). If you use yaoi in the sense of the mindless smut (can we call it smut when it's really graphic? ) PwP if you want it, then yes, I can agree on the point you're trying to say.

But if you put it as general BL works, then that's where I strongly objects. A lot of authors didn't do only that: Nakamura Asumiko loves her pshychological josei-licious babbles, Natsume Isaku just have this weird tendency to create fuzzy feelings with bitchings, Hidaka Shouko's more than likely puts forward "how to develop things" when she has the space, Takarai Rihito's works put mind into ease (technically she never create R18 stuffs, kinda like Abe Miyuki ), Konohara Narise is... Konohara Narise (aka, splitting people's heart with knives and beautifulness), and many more.

And these authors also have a lot of devoted fans, in the respective series where everyone just blush because of the sweetness. Of course, the more... Ahem, graphic ones are also popular, blame perverts in all of us.

Really, a lot of this authors just have the tendency not to portray "sex as hot thing", and put it as rather a twist to relationships and all. Although to an extent, I feel you're kind of undermining the josei demographic really liking the so-called conventional smut... (This is my reading of your post though, feel free to correct me~)

(By~ The~ Way, I'm not talking in slashing fandom, but on the core BL fandoms, though not really the Western fandom part. I have to say that the preconception that every fujoshis like their BL sexy, while easily understandable, just is not all the reason why we like BL works/relationships...)
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Old 2011-06-20, 22:48   Link #46
karice67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
That's what I meant. Yaoi is aimed at Josei. Yuri is aimed at Seinen. Because of this they both take on tropes popular with those demographics. Yuri takes on moe characteristics, and Yaoi takes on the characteristics of more conventional smut manga (IE male being superior and forceful, female being subdued, being generally sexually explicit).
Once again, no, they are not. A lot of yaoi works fall under shoujo (the more unrealistic, romantic ones) and a number don't really fall under what I'd call 'shoujo' or 'josei'. BL is generally aimed at fujoshi, which is a very specific demographic that might overlap slightly with josei (audiences). Though there are a few stories which are aimed at josei as well - a couple of Mizushiro Setona works are very good examples.

Yuri on the other hand, can be directed at quite a few demographics, though most of the ones I've heard of are for shoujo or josei audiences. The impression I get is that, if yuri appears in works aimed at male audiences, it's more about fanservice.

As Natsuki (and I've) said before, you're really oversimplifying this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by risingstar3110 View Post
But i can tell you that, yes, Ginny/Harry was coming out of nowhere. That's why the actress for Ginny(was it her name) for the movie series at first was not chosen really properly until they realized "Crap, she will end up with Harry"
The movie issue was more that the producers etc assumed that Harry would end up with Hermione, which is the (het.) ship that puzzles me, to be honest.
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Last edited by karice67; 2011-06-22 at 03:22.
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Old 2011-06-20, 23:43   Link #47
TJR
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Originally Posted by Akito_Kinomoto View Post
Why is the output of yaoi so much higher compared to yuri? Because yaoi is more profitable. Why is yaoi more profitable? Because more people are willing to buy that stuff. Why are more people willing to buy that stuff?
Traditionally speaking, the popularity of BL in Japan is rooted in feminism.
Target audience = heterosexual women
Origin = a rejection of the power imbalance between the sexes found in a typical male/female relationship (and within society at large). The typical BL relationship maintains the power imbalance (seme/uke dynamic) but eliminates the gender aspect.

I don't know whether the same is true for western fans, but there is some sentiment that explicit BL depictions offer female oriented smut without being degrading to women.

As for yuri, no such link exists.
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Old 2011-06-20, 23:51   Link #48
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I wonder if there's a relation.

Maybe some lesbians do not like Yuri because it's too feminine? And maybe they like Yaoi better because the male characters in yaoi do not behave like men (not even gay men) and the "seme" characters are basically butch lesbians with dicks?
I'm complaining about Western lesbian romance or fiction in which lesbian characters are involved. I'm complaining that they're not feminine enough, because there's a media-inspired stereotype that has made the general populace believe that even when the relationship is between two women, there still has to be a masculine-feminine dynamic.

This doesn't reflect reality at all. I know far more lesbian couples (including myself and my fiancee) who are both feminine than I know couples with a "seme/uke" dynamic, to maintain the otaku metaphors.

I like most yuri, except for the fact that most of it is so full of teenage angst that it gives me horrible high school flashbacks and I'd rather not have those. I'd like to see more yuri about adult females, but this is rare, since Japan thinks being gay is a phase women get over before they graduate high school and become baby-making machines.

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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Well NanoFate only dominates because Tsuzuki fails at romance and keeps beating around the bush+ lack of viable choices

Besides, can you really have a magical girl show w/o yuri?
The longer they beat around the bush, the more they can rile up the fanbase, the more they can waggle the carrot on a stick and keep people buying their stuff.

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Originally Posted by risingstar3110 View Post
@synaesthetic: where's your Yukari avatar... put it back >_<
What's wrong with Koishi?

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Originally Posted by risingstar3110 View Post
I can't say the same with all case of yuri manga/ anime. But i clearly want to state that: one of the reason that Heterosexual male like to ship on yuri pairings (in non-yuri show), is not because of what yous stated above. But because we like romance genre too. But sometime male characters for those shounen shows does not worthy enough to be with the girl(s) and hence shipping is there for those girls to have worthy romantic development is the preferred option. It's actual purely shipping, rather than for pornography fantasy purpose

Guys are very strict with male character in general, and there's only few of them who actually worthy enough to be an object of admiration. I can state an example with Angel Beats. Was shipping lots on Hinata x Yurippe until the anime ruined the character of Hinata hard (comparing to in the light novel). So that's why the shipping of YurippexTenshi or YurippexYusa was then preferred

Wondering if yaoi fangirl having the same mindset
You're a bit of a rarity when it comes to shipping in general. Most people are shipping because they want something out of it, whether that is squee factor or fap factor, and the fap factor isn't unique to the guys.

Most girls I know who gay-ship male characters are doing it purely for the fap factor.

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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
The impression I get is that, if yuri appears in works aimed at male audiences, it's more about fanservice.
It's exclusively fanservice. If you look at all yuri subtext or content in works aimed at a male audience, it's not relevant to the plot. It never goes anywhere. It's just there, very clunky and pointless.

As much as I support the NanoFate ship, this is a prime example of it. So Nanoha and Fate might be lesbians, but what bearing does that have on the plot? None whatsoever. Would removing the relationship and cutting back on the fanservice between the two make the story any different? No, it really wouldn't.

I don't consider subtext to actually be yuri (or a positive depiction of a lesbian relationship) when it's used for pretty much pure fanservice. I didn't really care much about the NanoFate until I started reading fanfic where the relationship was explored and was actually significant in contributing to character development or moving the plot along.

All romance, straight or gay or what have you, is nothing but fanservice unless it contributes to the plot or to the character development of the couple involved (or, in the case of romance stories, is the plot).
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Old 2011-06-21, 00:44   Link #49
Archon_Wing
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
I'm complaining about Western lesbian romance or fiction in which lesbian characters are involved. I'm complaining that they're not feminine enough, because there's a media-inspired stereotype that has made the general populace believe that even when the relationship is between two women, there still has to be a masculine-feminine dynamic.

This doesn't reflect reality at all. I know far more lesbian couples (including myself and my fiancee) who are both feminine than I know couples with a "seme/uke" dynamic, to maintain the otaku metaphors. -
Interesting. I actually found these terms offensive when I heard them. It just implies that there must be someone dominant over the other, which leads to a bunch of patriarchy stuff dead horse. >.>

Quote:
The longer they beat around the bush, the more they can rile up the fanbase, the more they can waggle the carrot on a stick and keep people buying their stuff.
The carrot's rotten by now.
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Old 2011-06-21, 00:46   Link #50
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The carrot's rotten by now.
Can I haz it and feed it to my wuri wabbits?
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Old 2011-06-21, 00:53   Link #51
Akuma Kinomoto
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Can I haz it and feed it to my wuri wabbits?
I wonder if making NanoFate canon would actually do more harm than good. I mean, if they became an item people might be less inclined to make nice fanart and doujins, and then where would we be?!
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Old 2011-06-21, 02:54   Link #52
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
I'm complaining about Western lesbian romance or fiction in which lesbian characters are involved. I'm complaining that they're not feminine enough, because there's a media-inspired stereotype that has made the general populace believe that even when the relationship is between two women, there still has to be a masculine-feminine dynamic.

This doesn't reflect reality at all. I know far more lesbian couples (including myself and my fiancee) who are both feminine than I know couples with a "seme/uke" dynamic, to maintain the otaku metaphors.
Yeah yeah I got that and that's perfectly understandable, but the same could be said about the seme/uke stereotype in gay couple which to my knowledge it's almost inexistent in reality.

What I was speculating is if there is a correlation of this type:


lesbians who are feminine -> lesbians who like yuri
Lesbians who are "masculine" (or so perceived by society) -> lesbians who like yaoi
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Old 2011-06-21, 03:30   Link #53
Solace
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
No. Definitely not. Josei refers to works that target more mature female audiences and tend to feature more realistic relationships. Most 'yaoi' is targeted at 'fujoshi' rather than Josei audiences. The more realistic BL titles, the ones "that explore the complications and possibilities of the topic", can probably be considered Josei as well, and these women would probably read about a realistic/mature yuri relationship too...though the impression I've gotten is that most yuri is aimed at younger audiences...
Cute. Ignore the point and focus on the semantics of classification.

Shoujo, Shounen, whatever. I don't really focus on such things more than I have to. I'm sure a lot of the manga I've read is mislabeled anyway. *shrug* The point I was making is that of the manga I have read, that have genuinely gay coupling, the dynamic of the relationship is no different than a heterosexual one. In many cases (not all) even the art is reflective of this, by drawing the uke in a more feminine manner than the man.

In contrast, most manga I have read, that have genuinely lesbian coupling, rarely feel that way. The relationship is entirely feminine, there are no so called "butch" aspects in either person.

Are there exceptions to this? Yes, there always is. Granted, I'm no expert on the topic, which is why I used words like "feel" and "in my opinion". I thought I made that pretty clear, but apparently not. I have however, read a ton of manga, and this includes romance stories aimed at all demographics and even stuff that goes beyond generic smut into hardcore territory. So I stand by my previous post, regardless of the qualms you may have with how things are classified.
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Old 2011-06-21, 04:20   Link #54
karice67
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Cute. Ignore the point and focus on the semantics of classification.
I don't really have any explanation for the questions posed in the opening post myself (TJR has laid out the one 'academic' argument I've come across, though I personally question just how salient it is with most of the audience nowadays. But it's not like I'm going to write an essay/thesis on it).

But if you want to discuss it, at least use the correct terms so as to avoid confusing people who don't know anything about the topic.

"most yaoi feels like shoujo romance" <= I'd completely agree with that
"most yaoi feels like a josei story" <= completely misleading about both the BL and josei genres.
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Old 2011-06-21, 04:33   Link #55
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Originally Posted by Akito_Kinomoto View Post
I wonder if making NanoFate canon would actually do more harm than good. I mean, if they became an item people might be less inclined to make nice fanart and doujins, and then where would we be?!
I can make my peace and move on if they do. However, the whole shipping tease and the unbearable attitude of the more fanatical NxF shippers are only some of the reasons why I am drifting further away from the Nanoha fandom. If anything, this shipping tease is pretty much a sign of the writer not daring enough to take his brainchild to directions that the genre have never explored before. "I'll kill Vita............ NOT." I have seen it with Nanoha, I am seeing it with Dog Days. Now I'll drop the subject but I am willing to discuss it through PM or in the public profile board.
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Old 2011-06-21, 08:19   Link #56
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Yaoi doesn't feel like all Josei. For instance there's little similiarity between Yaoi and, say, Honey and Clover, or Nodame Cantabile. In fact I quite like Josei as a whole. I more meant that it's like the subsection of Josei commonly labelled as Smut. In fact this is as much Shoujo as Josei, and I was using the two interchangeably. You do find the "adult" stuff more commonly in Josei then in Shoujo though (Josei being an older demographic...)

Now I wasn't really talking about BL either, BL is nowhere near as explicit as Yaoi, I've always been under the impression that BL is where the relationship is more subtext then obvious, while Yaoi features the malexmale relationship more explicitly (down to them, uh, doing it).

In this sense Yaoi clearly falls into being an "exploitation" genre. It's exploiting homosexuality for the gratification of it's (female) readers. Most gay men do not read the greater part of Yaoi. Likewise Yaoi does not actually realistically depict homosexual relationships, for instance Yaoi frequently shows off the concept of the guy "discovering" he's gay after being pretty much raped, which I'd say most gays would find a bit offensive. Of course this isn't so different from the plot lines found in smut, where the girl "discovers" she loves the guy after being pretty much raped by him.

Yuri is a very different beast. When I think of Yuri I think of Strawberry Panic, or Sasameki Koto. The plot line is basically blushing school girls, with all kinds of angst, falling in love with each other. It's a lot like Shounen or Seinen romance, particularly with it's glacial pacing, and general emphasis on Moe. It's not really exploitation fiction, as the emphasis isn't so clearly on titilation. It's all about the teen angst, as synaesthetic said. This is perhaps why it's so dull...

Yuri isn't a girl on girl fanservice in an otherwise conventional work, just as Gundam isn't Yaoi for it's often clear fangirl pandering. That's just fanservice. Instead we should talk about the case where Yuri or Yaoi is the central element.
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Old 2011-06-21, 10:14   Link #57
karice67
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In Japan, 'BL' is actually the umbrella term for yaoi/shounen ai. i.e. BL contains everything from hints/subtext (which Western fans might call 'shounen ai') to really explicit doujinshi/titles (yaoi). According to the Japanese wiki, they don't use 'shounen ai', and 'yaoi' is a sub-heading that refers to really explicit scenes or works that are full of such scenes. Also, BL and 'ladies comics'* are both listed as genres under 'shoujo'.

*'josei manga' is the Western term, although 'josei' is used as a genre term in Japanese literature in general.

The Western fandom, as far as I know, tends to use 'yaoi' as the umbrella term, though a lot of Asian fans seem to have started using 'BL'. It seems like people are starting to use the two terms interchangeably in the English-speaking fandom, although I think there is still something of an East/West divide.

Most Yuri titles are actually aimed at girls/women, as a few people have already said in this thread. i.e. they're not shounen or seinen. According to J-wiki again, with regards to manga, it'd come under shoujo manga (like 'josei', it's a genre term in Japanese literature).

And smut is more like a genre within shoujo than a sub-genre of josei. As far as I'm aware, it's a distinction made in the Western fandom - I don't know if the Japanese care to make such a distinction.

But I give up trying to explain. The Western adoption of all these terms has resulted in a lot of misunderstanding in the English-speaking fandom.

---------

So what does all this mean for popularity and all that? Anyone have a more interesting argument than the one put forth by TJR?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TJR View Post
Traditionally speaking, the popularity of BL in Japan is rooted in feminism.
Target audience = heterosexual women
Origin = a rejection of the power imbalance between the sexes found in a typical male/female relationship (and within society at large). The typical BL relationship maintains the power imbalance (seme/uke dynamic) but eliminates the gender aspect.

I don't know whether the same is true for western fans, but there is some sentiment that explicit BL depictions offer female oriented smut without being degrading to women.

As for yuri, no such link exists.
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Last edited by karice67; 2011-06-22 at 06:15.
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Old 2011-06-21, 17:20   Link #58
Akuma Kinomoto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
In Japan, 'BL' is actually the umbrella term for yaoi/shounen ai. i.e. BL contains everything from hints/subtext (which Western fans might call 'shounen ai') to really explicit doujinshi/titles (yaoi). According to the Japanese wiki, they don't use 'shounen ai' and 'yaoi' is a sub-heading that refers to really explicit scenes or works that are full of such scenes. Also, BL and 'ladies comics'* are both listed as genres under 'shoujo'.

Most Yuri titles are actually aimed at girls/women, as a few people have already said in this thread. i.e. they're not shounen or seinen. According to J-wiki again, with regards to manga, it'd come under shoujo manga (like 'josei', it's a genre term in Japanese literature).

No. Definitely not. Josei refers to works that target more mature female audiences and tend to feature more realistic relationships. Most 'yaoi' is targeted at 'fujoshi' rather than Josei audiences. The more realistic BL titles, the ones "that explore the complications and possibilities of the topic", can probably be considered Josei as well, and these women would probably read about a realistic/mature yuri relationship too...though the impression I've gotten is that most yuri is aimed at younger audiences...
Actually, Yaoi is also known as Boys' Love, and both of them refer to homoerotic and homoromantic male relationships (1). And listing a genre underneath a demographic loses all meaning upon the realization of the fact that there's Yaoi out there which targets a male audience. Likewise, there are also Yuri publications that are meant to appeal to anyone carrying a Y chromosome, with Yuri Hime S being a notable example when put side-by-side with its female-in-mind cousin Yuri Hime (2). Finally, fantasizing and being mature are not mutually exclusive; Josei merely refers to the late teenage and adult women audiences that such a work is intended for (3), and age and maturity are not necessarily congruent.

With that said, I'm really enjoying most of the responses so far. But I find it rather odd that the animation studios haven't taken the initiative to produce more yaoi when the manga side seems to be doing 4th place-ish fine. Failing that, I wonder if they'd get a clue and stop making all of their yuri implied or secondary when you'd get a lot more people who prefer it being the point more than an afterthought, like myself.
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Old 2011-06-21, 20:39   Link #59
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by Akito_Kinomoto View Post
With that said, I'm really enjoying most of the responses so far. But I find it rather odd that the animation studios haven't taken the initiative to produce more yaoi when the manga side seems to be doing 4th place-ish fine. Failing that, I wonder if they'd get a clue and stop making all of their yuri implied or secondary when you'd get a lot more people who prefer it being the point more than an afterthought, like myself.
I think that the issue is that it's a large, but ultimately very niche fanbase. If you made yaoi you'd only get Fujioshi buying into it. Whereas if you make a mecha show with heavily implied BL undertones (COUGH, Gundam 00 COUGH), then you can get both fujioshi AND mech heads. Multidemographic appeal! The problem with Yaoi is that it's very love it or hate it, so if you ever make it, it'll never have any popularity outside it's core audience.

That said, a lot of Otaku Bait "harem" shows would have similiarly narrow appeal, however I'd say the male Otaku demographic is a much more proven spender then the fujioshi side.
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Old 2011-06-22, 03:01   Link #60
karice67
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Originally Posted by Akito_Kinomoto View Post
Actually, Yaoi is also known as Boys' Love, and both of them refer to homoerotic and homoromantic male relationships (1).
Firstly, I had already read the English wiki page. Secondly, did you read what I posted?

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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
The Western fandom, as far as I know, tends to use 'yaoi' as the umbrella term, though a lot of Asian fans seem to have started using 'BL'. It seems like people are starting to use the two terms interchangeably in the English-speaking fandom, although I think there is still something of an East/West divide.
The reason I regard it as an East/West divide is because I went to a convention in Australia last year where they still predominantly used the term 'yaoi' rather than 'BL'. Most of the people I know who are actually aware of the term 'BL' are Asian or of Asian descent, and the main term used on the June manga website is still 'yaoi'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akito_Kinomoto View Post
And listing a genre underneath a demographic loses all meaning upon the realization of the fact that there's Yaoi out there which targets a male audience.
Did you read the English wiki page properly?
Quote:
BL creators and fans are careful to distinguish the genre from bara, including "gay manga", which are created by and for gay men.[1][2] However, some male manga creators have produced BL works.
Spoiler for tl;dr:


====

Basically, in terms of manga, yaoi/BL is predominantly aimed at female audiences (specifically, at fujoshi), and so is yuri, though a small proportion of yuri is aimed at male audiences.

Anime-wise, I have no idea, as I don't normally watch shows of either genre. I would assume though, that the lack of more explicit scenes on TV anime is a barrier to the appeal of animated BL works (although they do seem to be becoming more common). A far more important consideration, however, are BL drama CDs and BL games. That's where most fujoshi - many of whom seem to be seiyuu fans - get their fixes from. i.e. why would they bother with anime that censors stuff when they can get fully voiced scenes elsewhere?

Going back to the original questions you posed though (now that I've been drawn into the discussion despite just wanting to correct some misperceptions that would affect the answers given)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akito_Kinomoto View Post
...That's where I got stuck. Both of these romantic sub-genres feature taboo relationships, so why does there seem to be more audience/reader acceptance of one set of gender-monotony and not the other? Is there some kind of greater psychology at work or are more people just really turned on by guy-on-guy than they are girl-on-girl? I mean, there has to be a reason I can walk into any random bookstore, ask for yaoi, and be directed to Loveless, then ask for yuri, and be directed to books on some Russian dude, right? Right?!
I take it that you're talking about the West. In which case, the simple answer probably is that most stories in that genre haven't been brought over yet, for whatever reason. It could also be that most yuri falls under 'ladies comics' and not all that many of these have been licensed either, at least compared to the broader range of shounen and shoujo titles.

Not that I know what would happen if you walk into a Japanese bookstore in Japan and ask for yuri, having never tried. Though it is easy to notice the difference in, shall we say, market penetration between yuri and BL even in Japan. Every bookstore I've ever walked into there has an obvious BL section.
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