AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2011-06-22, 16:09   Link #22921
Kealym
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
[list]So while, yes, a number of the scenarios were constructed through actual creation of a physical mystery or use of sleight of hand, or a construct embellished into a mystery through lies, a goodly number of the mysteries were made to seem important or complicated, and the solution is simply that they didn't happen at all except in someone's lies. They may as well not even have talked about those in the meta-world, as the whole thing could've been dispensed with using Battler's ep3 garden battle logic: "That shit didn't happen."
Yeah, one of the reasons Erika was more competent as a detective, even if she was a bitch about it, is that she was way more insistent about checking the actual physical status of things.

Battler seemed to take Virgilia's advice on the EP3 magic battle, and say "Nope. Didn't happen." because that was the only ... good argument he had against such a large, flashy fantasy display. It's a solution he should've been using more often, but then, the EP3 battle in the garden was probably the single most bombastic lie in Beato's game, and probably overshadowed more mundane matters, like whether a door was locked, in his thinking.

Or at least that's what I like to think - it's possible Ryu was just writing him incompetent for the sake of the story. Erika never did figure out that knocking mystery, after all, and she's supposed to be a genius.
Kealym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-06-22, 16:24   Link #22922
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
  • Shannon's presence in the shed in ep1 is constructed solely by a lie.
  • According to Will, the chain-locked room of ep1 is constructed by a lie.
  • Kanon's death in ep1 is a lie.
  • Most of ep3 is presumably genuine, at least in the sense that something other than a lie holds the puzzles together.
  • The door to the chapel in ep2 may have been locked solely because someone said it was.
  • As you said, essentially all of ep4 except the shed murders is basically a lie, or at least Battler has no means of distinguishing whether that is so.
  • The knock in ep5 is (apparently) a lie.
  • The solution to the Logic Error is predicated on misinformation, which is like a lie.
So while, yes, a number of the scenarios were constructed through actual creation of a physical mystery or use of sleight of hand, or a construct embellished into a mystery through lies, a goodly number of the mysteries were made to seem important or complicated, and the solution is simply that they didn't happen at all except in someone's lies. They may as well not even have talked about those in the meta-world, as the whole thing could've been dispensed with using Battler's ep3 garden battle logic: "That shit didn't happen."
If we go by the assumption that "illusions to illusions" means that no one actually died and "earth to earth" means that the corpses are actually dead people, all of EP1 is nothing but a charade. This would help explaining why Hideyoshi lied.

Conversely anything from the second twilight onward in EP3 was a real murder, and the murderer was Eva.
This is even more anticlimatic because Eva was hinted to be the culprit since... before the murders even occured!

In EP2 no one died until the very end. Probably Shannon killed the ones who previously faked their death before killing herself in the last room.

The same is probably true for EP4.

And Kinzo's corpse is probably just a dummy.


Anyway in the end the difficulty of the mysteries of Umineko solely rely on the sheer amount of lies that are told to ther reader.

This is not much different from the classic joke/riddle that asks you how many eggs can lay a rooster.

The trick here is to ignore the well constructed trap that is meant to make you assume that there is actually a complex problem to solve while in fact you must simply realize that there is not a problem to begin with!

That's basically Genji's riddle in EP8


The problem is... this kind of stratagem is usually done "for the lulz" and not to propose a serious challenge.


EDIT: Actually it's possible that in EP3 the killer is "yasu", that way you don't even have the problem of Nanjo's murder. But in that case... what about the letter that claimed the the ceremony would end if someone solved the riddle? Was that also a lie? Meh...
__________________


Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2011-06-22 at 16:40.
Jan-Poo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-06-22, 16:48   Link #22923
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Quote:
Actually it's possible that in EP3 the killer is "yasu", that way you don't even have the problem of Nanjo's murder. But in that case... what about the letter that claimed the the ceremony would end if someone solved the riddle? Was that also a lie? Meh...
I imagined that Eva didn't communicate to Yasu that she solved it due to her paranoia or through some other sort of circumstance Yasu wasn't aware that Eva had solved it, leading to a hilarious tragedy of miscommunication. Luuuulz.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-06-22, 17:01   Link #22924
FirstTwilight
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Considering ep. III setting (all of them are stuck in the guest-house) i really find hard to believe Yasu didn't notice that two people solved the epitaph and reached the gold. And using "She didn't notice lol!" as an excuse would be a pretty a shitty move from R07.

But then again,Rosa and Kyrie couldn't do it (no falsehood etc), the Red text forbids Eva... we are left with Yasu and her shenanigans.




Anyway, about ep III, in the recent interview R07 pretty much implied we can associate Evatrice character with other killers, didn't he?
I was thinking, since Rosa and Eva solved the Epitaph wouldn't that make Kyrie a suspect as well? Maybe she solved the Epitaph as well?
FirstTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-06-22, 17:22   Link #22925
Kealym
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
If we go by the assumption that "illusions to illusions" means that no one actually died and "earth to earth" means that the corpses are actually dead people, all of EP1 is nothing but a charade. This would help explaining why Hideyoshi lied.

Conversely anything from the second twilight onward in EP3 was a real murder, and the murderer was Eva.
This is even more anticlimatic because Eva was hinted to be the culprit since... before the murders even occured!

In EP2 no one died until the very end. Probably Shannon killed the ones who previously faked their death before killing herself in the last room.

The same is probably true for EP4.

And Kinzo's corpse is probably just a dummy.


Anyway in the end the difficulty of the mysteries of Umineko solely rely on the sheer amount of lies that are told to ther reader.

This is not much different from the classic joke/riddle that asks you how many eggs can lay a rooster.

The trick here is to ignore the well constructed trap that is meant to make you assume that there is actually a complex problem to solve while in fact you must simply realize that there is not a problem to begin with!

That's basically Genji's riddle in EP8


The problem is... this kind of stratagem is usually done "for the lulz" and not to propose a serious challenge.


EDIT: Actually it's possible that in EP3 the killer is "yasu", that way you don't even have the problem of Nanjo's murder. But in that case... what about the letter that claimed the the ceremony would end if someone solved the riddle? Was that also a lie? Meh...
I interpreted "Illusions to Illusions" to mean that a significant lie or false death was INVOLVED, but doesn't preclude actual murder. For example, while Yasu's intentions are a bit up in the air, I see very little reason to doubt whether or not the First Twilight victims in Legend and Turn were real or not, save for Shannon in the shed. It's extremely cumbersome on the plot to try and fathom that EVERY death was false until the very end - for example, it's pretty much confirmed at this point that Kanon perpetrated the Second Twilight in both EP 1 and 2.

And the degree of Eva's guilt in EP3 is ... kinda debatable. The only murders we almost absolutely HAVE to blame on her are Krauss and Natsuhi.

I see no reason to doubt that the Kinzo-corpse we saw was the real one. We ourselves never find out where Natsuhi stuck him, but everyone keeping his phantom alive is probably fully capable of dragging him up as is convenient or them. In fact, it raises some interesting thoughts about Natsuhi's mindset after the 4th Twilight in EP 1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FirstTwilight View Post
Considering ep. III setting (all of them are stuck in the guest-house) i really find hard to believe Yasu didn't notice that two people solved the epitaph and reached the gold. And using "She didn't notice lol!" as an excuse would be a pretty a shitty move from R07.

But then again,Rosa and Kyrie couldn't do it (no falsehood etc), the Red text forbids Eva... we are left with Yasu and her shenanigans.




Anyway, about ep III, in the recent interview R07 pretty much implied we can associate Evatrice character with other killers, didn't he?
I was thinking, since Rosa and Eva solved the Epitaph wouldn't that make Kyrie a suspect as well? Maybe she solved the Epitaph as well?
EP3 itself showed that Evatrice could represent humans other than Eva, as Evatrice was shown killing Nanjo. It's kind of an interesting thought that Kyrie might've solved the epitaph on her own, and we just weren't shown ... ...
Kealym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-06-22, 17:49   Link #22926
FirstTwilight
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
I just found this on /jp/


Spoiler for Spoiler for both Higurashi and Umineko:


It's from an ep EP8 guidebook.
FirstTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-06-22, 18:10   Link #22927
victorino123
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by FirstTwilight View Post
Anyway, about ep III, in the recent interview R07 pretty much implied we can associate Evatrice character with other killers, didn't he?
I was thinking, since Rosa and Eva solved the Epitaph wouldn't that make Kyrie a suspect as well? Maybe she solved the Epitaph as well?
What's the last inerview from R07? =P And where can i find it?
victorino123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-06-22, 21:03   Link #22928
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Quote:
Considering ep. III setting (all of them are stuck in the guest-house) i really find hard to believe Yasu didn't notice that two people solved the epitaph and reached the gold. And using "She didn't notice lol!" as an excuse would be a pretty a shitty move from R07.
How would she know? It's not like Eva was all like "Hey guys I found the gold." And Yasu was in the main house or the chapel apparently.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-06-22, 21:10   Link #22929
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
How would she know? It's not like Eva was all like "Hey guys I found the gold." And Yasu was in the main house or the chapel apparently.
Wouldn't she notice the statue facing the other way, or the ladder Eva would've had to leave behind, or something?
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-06-22, 21:13   Link #22930
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Maybe, maybe not. It depends on where the hell Yasu was at the time and what the hell she's up to when no one's keeping an eye on the two corpses she's supposed to be maintaining. Bitch got her hands full keeping this delicate clusterfuck from blowing up in her face.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-06-22, 23:05   Link #22931
LyricalAura
Dea ex Kakera
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
Alright, I've investigated the two other new TIPS I mentioned the other day. The first one, Rokkenjima Investigation File, turned out to just be a book of character concept art and some commentary, so nothing particularly interesting in the text.

As for the other one... Well. Have a translation.

Spoiler for Jessica and the Killer Electric Fan:
__________________
"Something has fallen on us that falls very seldom on men; perhaps the worst thing that can fall on them. We have found the truth; and the truth makes no sense."

Last edited by LyricalAura; 2012-02-26 at 21:39.
LyricalAura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-06-22, 23:15   Link #22932
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
That was...THE BEST SHIT.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-06-22, 23:26   Link #22933
TsundereCake
真 ラブ
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Everywhere
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
book of character concept art
Scans where
__________________
I need a new sig ⊙︿⊙
TsundereCake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-06-22, 23:29   Link #22934
LyricalAura
Dea ex Kakera
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
Quote:
Originally Posted by TsundereCake View Post
Scans where
No idea, the umineco wiki only has the text.
__________________
"Something has fallen on us that falls very seldom on men; perhaps the worst thing that can fall on them. We have found the truth; and the truth makes no sense."
LyricalAura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-06-22, 23:38   Link #22935
TsundereCake
真 ラブ
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Everywhere
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
No idea, the umineco wiki only has the text.
That's too bad, I'd love to see those!
__________________
I need a new sig ⊙︿⊙
TsundereCake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-06-23, 01:50   Link #22936
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Rokken Kingdom... ahem...

Anyway that story of the "killer fan" made me remember this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oms2grI1TC0&feature=fvsr
__________________

Jan-Poo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-06-23, 02:35   Link #22937
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Quote:
Rokken Kingdom
Atleast he didn't invoke King Zoshiromear.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-06-23, 09:57   Link #22938
victorino123
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Does someone know where can i find the interviews for more tips? plss
victorino123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-06-23, 11:50   Link #22939
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Well, good thing that electric fan is there. They might need it in case that deadly gazebo in the rose garden goes on a rampage.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-06-23, 13:29   Link #22940
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Speaking of which, The killer electric fan did it. Prove me wrong.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:45.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.