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Old 2011-06-17, 22:16   Link #3001
sharingan0619
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Because he's summoned as a Servant, not a Counter Guardian, when he accepts the path he's taken.

As for the records, it's still basically memories. They aren't as vivid as a normal memory, but it's not like he has a clipboard with his kill stats on it or anything. It's all in his mind.
That means if he was summoned as a servant, he should not be able to retain his motives and desires from being a CG, since Counter Guardians and Servants are two different entities. Contradiction.
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Old 2011-06-17, 23:18   Link #3002
GDB
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No it isn't. A Servant is an avatar container. It just happened (because of Rin's pendant) that this particular container housed a Counter Guardian instead of a Heroic Spirit.
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Old 2011-06-18, 21:50   Link #3003
sharingan0619
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
No it isn't. A Servant is an avatar container. It just happened (because of Rin's pendant) that this particular container housed a Counter Guardian instead of a Heroic Spirit.
OK, then u just proved the point that a CG was summoned instead of a heroic spirit, which then by extension would mean he WOULD remember such a path that he has taken.

Ah whatever, it doesn't really matter, nuances this deep does not affect the canon.
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Old 2011-06-18, 22:19   Link #3004
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Originally Posted by sharingan0619 View Post
OK, then u just proved the point that a CG was summoned instead of a heroic spirit, which then by extension would mean he WOULD remember such a path that he has taken.

Ah whatever, it doesn't really matter, nuances this deep does not affect the canon.
From my understanding, I think he meant someone who is a CG but he wasnt summoned as a CG. Essentially, if you're summoned as a Servant you will never remember what you did as a servant.

However, if you are "summoned" by Alaya to be a CG you will remember your experience as a CG albeit only vaguely.

Speculation: This means that if a HS theoretically "could" accept an offer as a CG from Alaya, they would remember their time as a CG murdering people. Not that they'ed ever do that of course >.>
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Old 2011-06-22, 23:33   Link #3005
bhl88
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What's the deeper meaning of the poem: Unlimited Blade Works?
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Dang it Avalon, you c(XD LOL)-block Shirou and Reinforce, but don't protect his mind in other ways? What is wrong, you woman?
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Old 2011-06-23, 03:11   Link #3006
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by bhl88 View Post
What's the deeper meaning of the poem: Unlimited Blade Works?
What you mean I am the bone of my sword? Which version Shirou or Archer's?
Either way I think the literal translation gives the best insight.

Archer's literal.
His body is made out of swords
His blood is of iron and his heart of glass
He survived through countless battles
Not even once retreating
Not even once being understood
He was always alone
Intoxicated with victory in a hill of swords
Thus, his life has no meaning
That body was certainly made out of swords

Shirou's
His body is made out of swords
His blood is of iron and his heart of glass
He survived through countless battles
Not even once retreating
Not even once being victorious
The bearer lies here alone
Forging iron in a hill of swords
Thus, my life needs no meaning
This body is made out infinite swords

Each poem has a physical and symbolic meaning. Both their bodies are infact pretty much made out of swords(whenever they get damaged their flesh is covered or held together by millions of swords). The symbolic meaning of course is that they are both very resistent mentally. They both chased after impossible dreams and can weather the mental and physical hardship that paths requires.

The divergence between the two poems is the "not even once being victorious"/"Not once being understood". This is also the diverging place of Shirou's and Archer's ideals. It's pretty much up to personal interepretation what this means but I personally think it means partly that noone else could actually understand Archer's desire to be as selfless as he was but also Archer always thought in the here and now, he never once actually thought through his ideal until the end. So he couldn't understand why people mocked him and treated him so. Shirou on the otherhand thanks to Archer saw the inevitable end of his ideal and realised that he can never be victorious, he can never achieve his ideal.

The conclusion each version of Shirou came about their ideals is the last two lines. Archer discovered that no matter how many battles he won, no matter what sacrifices he made that he would never be able to achieve his ideal. He would never be able to put shape to his mind and permanently force his ideal upon reality. Whatever he did would be temporary much like his projections and be denied by reality and so he considers his life and his path pointless.

Shirou on the other hand has come to terms with the fact his ideal is unachievable, but he believes actualising the ideal wasn't really the point of the ideal at all. The point was that he thought it would be beautiful if he could live a selfless life. That there is nothing wrong with chasing an impossible ideal if it encompasses all that he believes to be right. It doesn't matter if he doesn't reach his ideal, because if he keeps chasing it he will reach somewhere. His ideal like his projections may not have a real meaning as in the end it's only temporary, but he doesn't need one as he simply wants to help people even if it's not a permanent solution. A life dedicated to selflessness, cannot be wrong.

Last edited by Tenchi Hou Take; 2011-06-24 at 10:18.
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Old 2011-06-23, 21:09   Link #3007
sharingan0619
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
What you mean I am the bone of my sword? Which version Shirou or Archer's?
Either way I think the literal translation gives the best insight.

Archer's literal.
His body is made out of swords
His blood is of iron and his heart of glass
He survived through countless battles
Not even once retreating
Not even once being understood
He was always alone
Intoxicated with victory in a hill of swords
Thus, his life has no meaning
That body was certainly made out of swords

Shirou's
His body is made out of swords
His blood is of iron and his heart of glass
He survived through countless battles
Not even once retreating
Not even once being victorious
The bearer lies here alone
Forging iron in a hill of swords
Thus, my life needs no meaning
This body is made out infinite swords

Each poem has a physical and symbolic meaning. Both their bodies are infact pretty much made out of swords(whenever they get damaged their flesh is covered or held together by millions of swords). The symbolic meaning of course is that they both very resistent mentally. They both chased after impossible dreams and can weather the mental hardship and physical that paths requires.

The divergence between the two poems is the "not even once being victorious"/"Not once being understood". This is also the diverging place of Shirou's and Archer's ideals. It's pretty much up to personal interepretation what this means but I personally think it means partly noone else could actual understand Archer's desire to be as selfless as he was but Archer always thought in the here and now, he never once actually thought through his ideal until the end. So he couldn't understand why people mocked him and treated him so. Shirou on the otherhand thanks to Archer saw the inevitable end of his ideal and realised that he can never be victorious, he can never achieve his ideal.

The conclusion each version of Shirou came about their ideals is the last two lines. Acher discovered that no matter how many battles he won, no matter what sacrifices he made that he would never be able to achieve his ideal. He would never be able to put shape to his mind and permanently force his ideal upon reality. Whatever he did would be temporary much like his projections and be denied by reality and so he considers his life and his path pointless.

Shirou on the other hand has come to term with the fact his ideal is unachievable, but he believes actualising the ideal wasn't really the point of the ideal at all. The point was that he thought it would be beautiful if he could live a selfless life. That there is nothing wrong with chasing an impossible ideal if it encompasses all that he believes to be right. It doesn't matter if he doesn't reach his ideal, because if he keeps chasing it he will reach somewhere. His ideal like his projections may not have a real meaning as in the end it's only temporary, but he doesn't need one as he simply wants to help people even if it's not a permanent solution. A life dedicated to selflessness, cannot be wrong.
A life dedicated to selflessness, cannot be wrong huh.....
This explanation is flawless. As close to the original(NaSU) like no other.

What about the twin swords? Kansho and Bakuya?
What is the significance of the speech that accompanies them?
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Old 2011-06-23, 21:25   Link #3008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharingan0619 View Post
What about the twin swords? Kansho and Bakuya?
What is the significance of the speech that accompanies them?
A speech accompanies Kansho and Bakuya? I always thought they simply could be projected without a speech.
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Old 2011-06-23, 22:33   Link #3009
Tiresias
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When a Servant reverts to spirit form, who can detect their presence, how, and how accurate (can they know but not see, or is their presence as clear as day)?
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Old 2011-06-24, 18:52   Link #3010
sharingan0619
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@RadiantBeam
the speech that accompanies the twin swords is as follows:

鶴翼欠落不
心技泰山至
心技黄河渡
唯名別天納
両雄共命別

which means:
Spirit and technique, flawless and firm
Our strength rips the mountains
Our swords split the water
Our names reach the imperial villa
The two of us cannot hold heavens together
—Two great men, sharing a life.

*From the TM wikia*

@Tiresias
When a servant is in spirit form, only the caster class can detect them. I think other master/servants cant as shown when tohsaka and archer was surprised by their first encounter of Lancer at the school.
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Old 2011-06-24, 22:04   Link #3011
RadiantBeam
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharingan0619 View Post
@RadiantBeam
the speech that accompanies the twin swords is as follows:

鶴翼欠落不
心技泰山至
心技黄河渡
唯名別天納
両雄共命別

which means:
Spirit and technique, flawless and firm
Our strength rips the mountains
Our swords split the water
Our names reach the imperial villa
The two of us cannot hold heavens together
—Two great men, sharing a life.

*From the TM wikia*
I don't ever recall that being said in-game, though. I think the swords can simply be produced without any chant. I do recall, though, that there was a chant for an HF Bad End where Shirou fried his brain, which sounds like what you copy and pasted.
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Old 2011-06-25, 13:02   Link #3012
sharingan0619
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Apart from the heaven's feel bad end, i think there might've been one other part where this chant was written, not sure where though.

no no, i never said they needed to be said, i just said they went along with the swords
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Old 2011-06-25, 19:58   Link #3013
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I don't think it does, though. I can't recall a moment in the game where that chant was related to the swords themselves.
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Old 2011-07-04, 06:40   Link #3014
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Isn't the chant necessary for performing the ultimate attack with 3 pairs of K&B?
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Old 2011-07-04, 09:46   Link #3015
Tactics
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Originally Posted by Murasaki View Post
Isn't the chant necessary for performing the ultimate attack with 3 pairs of K&B?
Ultimate Attack ?

I'd prefer to call that as a "trick" attack using the blade's attraction toward each other.
Ended with a final blow from a reinforced Kansho and Bakuya.
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Old 2011-07-04, 18:15   Link #3016
Grey
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Isn't the chant necessary for performing the ultimate attack with 3 pairs of K&B?
Nope. Shirou uses that attack in HF when the UBW chant doesn't fit his character anymore.
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Old 2011-07-06, 14:16   Link #3017
LostHanyou
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Yes, according to every extra work that involves overedge, Archer can use it and has to say the chant. Shirou clearly states in the VN that he learned the technique from Archer's arm...
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Old 2011-07-07, 05:48   Link #3018
Grey
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Shoot, right, I should've read further back. When I saw "the chant" I thought people were talking about the UBW chant.

Yeah, I remember those lines in HF. I'd have to play the scene again but if extra material says it's required then I guess it's required.
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Old 2011-07-07, 05:49   Link #3019
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by LostHanyou View Post
Yes, according to every extra work that involves overedge, Archer can use it and has to say the chant. Shirou clearly states in the VN that he learned the technique from Archer's arm...
Over edge is a retcon added in because Nasu liked the scene in the anime, hence the contradictions. The chant for Shirou's technique isn't particularily needed as he is simply projecting multiple K&B's and utilising their attractive nature. It's like "I am the bone of my sword" for projections, he doesn't need to say it but it helps improve the quality of the projections/attack in the case for K&B's true form.

Anyway anyone else think Shirou's mind is linked to Akasha or more specifically the Throne of Heroe's kinda like Shiki's brain is linked to Akasha which is how he uses MEoDP.

I mean the guy can copy all of the previous owners of NP techniques, as well as instantly know all the inner workings of a NP at a glance. This is stuff that can only be obtained from the Throne of Heroes. Even Gilgamesh can't copy the previous owners techniques although he can use the NP abilities.

Last edited by Tenchi Hou Take; 2011-07-07 at 06:05.
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Old 2011-07-07, 23:40   Link #3020
sharingan0619
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
Over edge is a retcon added in because Nasu liked the scene in the anime, hence the contradictions. The chant for Shirou's technique isn't particularily needed as he is simply projecting multiple K&B's and utilising their attractive nature. It's like "I am the bone of my sword" for projections, he doesn't need to say it but it helps improve the quality of the projections/attack in the case for K&B's true form.

Anyway anyone else think Shirou's mind is linked to Akasha or more specifically the Throne of Heroe's kinda like Shiki's brain is linked to Akasha which is how he uses MEoDP.

I mean the guy can copy all of the previous owners of NP techniques, as well as instantly know all the inner workings of a NP at a glance. This is stuff that can only be obtained from the Throne of Heroes. Even Gilgamesh can't copy the previous owners techniques although he can use the NP abilities.
im not sure if its possible it his mind to be linked to the throne of heroes...since that place is somewhere thats cut off from time. More likely just conencted to Akasha perhaps, since that is the Origin of all things
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