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Old 2011-04-24, 19:20   Link #7921
Revolutionist
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Cornelia was one of the more likable characters in both seasons. She was simply doing her job as Governor-General, in a place where she'd lost 3 siblings. You can't expect her to show any compassion or mercy towards the elevens...She did however show that she cared for her subordinates and wasn't willing to sacrifice their lives needlessly. In ep 24 she showed genuine concern for that injured Knight after Lelouch causes the outer edge of the settlement to collapse, and after he sacrifices himself to protect her instead of ejecting like she'd asked, we can see that she is clearly upset by this.
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Old 2011-04-24, 23:04   Link #7922
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
Cornelia was one of the more likable characters in both seasons. She was simply doing her job as Governor-General, in a place where she'd lost 3 siblings. You can't expect her to show any compassion or mercy towards the elevens...She did however show that she cared for her subordinates and wasn't willing to sacrifice their lives needlessly. In ep 24 she showed genuine concern for that injured Knight after Lelouch causes the outer edge of the settlement to collapse, and after he sacrifices himself to protect her instead of ejecting like she'd asked, we can see that she is clearly upset by this.
That's Villainous Valor though.

Cornelia is still very much a racist, regardless of any Freudian Excuse. Again, I refer you to her establishing moment where she curb stomps the Middle East and turns it into Area 18.
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Old 2011-04-24, 23:36   Link #7923
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
That's Villainous Valor though.

Cornelia is still very much a racist, regardless of any Freudian Excuse. Again, I refer you to her establishing moment where she curb stomps the Middle East and turns it into Area 18.
winning a battle shows she's racist? O_o you have another example?
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Old 2011-04-25, 03:15   Link #7924
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winning a battle shows she's racist? O_o you have another example?
Overtaking a large geographical region and subsequently turning the population into an oppressed lower class identified as "numbers" is pretty indicative of racism.

No, the Nazis weren't racist, they were just winning battles.
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Old 2011-04-25, 11:36   Link #7925
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You came blame Charles for that. As he made up this entire spiel about how Britannia was superior to the rest of world and the strong eat the weak and so forth so he could conquer other nations.

Which BTW was all made up. He just wanted the Ragnarok ruins there. He didn't actually believe in any of it.
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Old 2011-04-25, 19:40   Link #7926
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There's a difference between discrimination and racism. You can discriminate people for a number of reasons, many of which have nothing to do with race...

Cornelia wasn't racist, but she did discriminate against numbers. I'm not denying that.

Simply being a conquered native without honorary citizen status was enough to be treated like shit. THere didn't seem to be a racial reason for the discrimination though, and Cornelia lets on that she doesn't necessarily agree or feel that way towards people, but since it is empire policy and she is a governmental figure she has to abide by it.
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Old 2011-05-06, 12:02   Link #7927
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
Cornelia was one of the more likable characters in both seasons. She was simply doing her job as Governor-General, in a place where she'd lost 3 siblings. You can't expect her to show any compassion or mercy towards the elevens...She did however show that she cared for her subordinates and wasn't willing to sacrifice their lives needlessly. In ep 24 she showed genuine concern for that injured Knight after Lelouch causes the outer edge of the settlement to collapse, and after he sacrifices himself to protect her instead of ejecting like she'd asked, we can see that she is clearly upset by this.
It's too bad that the producers never established a strong bond between Cornelia x Lelouch. Their interactions in R2 was just as brief as it was at the end of Season One. It would have been nice if Cornelia was able to reach out to Lelouch before Schniezel was able to reveal his identity to the Black Knights. She was close to Lelouch before he was sent off to Japan, following Marianne's death.

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Lelouch getting killed off too early/too young is an understatement, especially under the circumstances involved. They'd have to either do a retcon, or as in your fanfic, some sort of plausible Geass-related resurrection.
They might as well resurrect the original version of Code Geass R2 which was to continue from where Season One left off; but with a very different ending so that it could not overlap the Zero Requiem. To me, R2 was simply a redo of Season One, as far as the scenes and story dialog is concerned, besides the ending. The death of Lelouch came out of no where. The ending came too fast; too soon. R2 was simply about reaching to the end of the story as quickly as possible. In addition, the ending was to insure that the story could not continue from that standpoint.

Last edited by darthfury78; 2011-05-06 at 12:21.
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Old 2011-05-06, 15:10   Link #7928
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
There's a difference between discrimination and racism. You can discriminate people for a number of reasons, many of which have nothing to do with race...

Cornelia wasn't racist, but she did discriminate against numbers. I'm not denying that.

Simply being a conquered native without honorary citizen status was enough to be treated like shit. THere didn't seem to be a racial reason for the discrimination though, and Cornelia lets on that she doesn't necessarily agree or feel that way towards people, but since it is empire policy and she is a governmental figure she has to abide by it.
She doesn't simply abide by it, she berates them at almost every step.
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Old 2011-05-26, 13:16   Link #7929
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Oh, I meant Light before he was possessed by the Death Note, or that period where his memory was wiped. He was a bad person otherwise, yeah, but blaming him for being under the Death Note's spell is like blaming everyone who does something reprehensible under Lelouch's Geass.
Unikely Light from The Death Note Series, Lelouch's contact with C.C. and his Geass might have been predestined. The reason why Lelouch was sent to Japan was probably to come into contact with C.C., one way or another. She was needed for the Ragnarok to work. What I never understood was why she left Britannia to begin with, following Marianne's death? She could have stayed to activate the device. And once that was over, she could have gotten her wish to die. Instead everything got carried over upon Lelouch who dies at the end of the story, with C.C. alive. How ironic was that for C.C. to remain an immortal not wanting to die afterall?
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Old 2011-06-24, 15:33   Link #7930
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There was a lot that got derailed due to the fast track the show took.

BTW, an incidental search on some old posts reminded me of certain things, like hating on Ohgi and/or Villetta still being slightly unpopular. Or, the debate about what whether was hero or villain during Zero Requiem. Not to mention how a few people here and there who subscribed to the latter as their own confirmation that he was a bad seed also thought Cornelia was honorable. (Couldn't bring myself to stay any longer to spot any "Lulutards".)
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Old 2011-06-24, 18:06   Link #7931
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Maybe it's just me but doesn't the racist factor seem to be used in the fandom as a giant "this character is bad" marker? I mean, racism sucks in all its shapes and sizes, yeah, but its a really heavy handed way of showing character qualities and motivations. For those who read CG fanfiction on a frequent basis, try to remember how often you've been introduced to a negative character and seen them do something racist within the first 5 minutes just to show how evil they are. You get the idea.

The reason I mentioned this is because it also seems to overshadow a lot of other personal aspects like the giant neon blinking sign that is. Little things that are, nonetheless, important in the grand scheme of things, especially when often liked chracters such as Cornelia or Clovis are involved. Things like how likely they are to commit genocide at the drop of a hat.

Lost an important shipment? Murderize every minority in sight!

Need to catch that one guy that dresses so flamboyantly you can see him from space? Genocide, it's not just for third world countries, anymore!Warning, side effects may include megalomania, paranoia, restless legs sindrome, public executions and your own death being broadcast on youtube. Consult your doctor before use.

As much as it's an extension of racism, it doesn't seem to get mentioned that often (in the fandom), but that doesn't make it any less important. If you decide to go off and kill civilians just because you can, you do not deserve to check out with any sort of pride or dignity, much less your life.

Maybe I'm being anal about details, but when you discuss whether somebody is honorable or not, shouldn't mass murder be the first thing considered? Not discrimination (like not being hired because you're Irish), and maybe not even racism (like beating up somebody, because they're not the same colour as you). Clovis was responsible for Shinjuku and Cornelia ordered her troops to replicate that as closely as possible in episode 7. That should really be enough to make the call.
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Old 2011-06-24, 19:43   Link #7932
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Yeah. Clovis is a bit of a unique case, since as he was given something of a Freudian excuse, and he ended up getting killed right off the bat anyways.

Cornelia on the other hand ended up living through to the end of the show with no serious atonement or redemption for what she did, the worst of it being that she lost her sister and got seriously wounded on two occasions. She still walked out of the show with a happier ending than many more sympathetic characters did.

Heck, I'm also suspicious of Guilford, who, even though he might have been following his loyalty to Cornelia, participated in many killings, including, IIRC, the ones ordered by Viceroy Calares. And he's been viewed by some as a mensch, when the best that can be said about him is that he's loyal to the bone, to the point that he'd follow Cornelia over his own country.
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Old 2011-06-24, 21:12   Link #7933
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There are people who claim that Clovis is honorable?

I must meet them. Just to confirm that there are people out there more hopelessly obsessed with him than I am. It's a scary thought.

Having said that... Clovis was never shown to give a damn about anyone but Lelouch and a few other members of the royal family, so it's not at all certain that he was particularly racist. In the Sound Drama, at least, he was kinda "meh" upon learning that Lelouch had a so-called Eleven for a friend, though it also sounded like he used to blame the Japanese for his little brother's death at one point.

So I'd say it's quite possible he was just trigger-happy rather than horribly racist, which doesn't make him a better person, but more interesting and likeable as a character to me personally.

...But don't mind the over-analyzing fangirl. xD
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Old 2011-06-24, 21:25   Link #7934
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Yeah, I know, and I agree. Clovis just became dispassionate to the point he lost his heart.

What I mean about honorable, and chivalric, is how at least a small fragment of the fanbase seems to view Britannia.
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Old 2011-06-24, 21:41   Link #7935
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Yeah, I know, and I agree. Clovis just became dispassionate to the point he lost his heart.

What I mean about honorable, and chivalric, is how at least a small fragment of the fanbase seems to view Britannia.
*cheers* Thought that's what you meant, and I was actually talking about:

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Originally Posted by vk531 View Post
Maybe I'm being anal about details, but when you discuss whether somebody is honorable or not, shouldn't mass murder be the first thing considered? Not discrimination (like not being hired because you're Irish), and maybe not even racism (like beating up somebody, because they're not the same colour as you). Clovis was responsible for Shinjuku and Cornelia ordered her troops to replicate that as closely as possible in episode 7. That should really be enough to make the call.
Sorry, should have quoted earlier to avoid confusion!
By the way...

Quote:
The reason I mentioned this is because it also seems to overshadow a lot of other personal aspects like the giant neon blinking sign that is. Little things that are, nonetheless, important in the grand scheme of things, especially when often liked chracters such as Cornelia or Clovis are involved.
Clovis is often liked? I never got that impression.
I mean, if someone somewhere on the Internet were to say, "You know, that Clovis fangirl..." I would automatically wonder if they're talking about me - and not just because I'm paranoid like that.
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Old 2011-06-24, 22:47   Link #7936
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Clovis' fandom has practically everything to do with the side of him shown from the Sound Drama, and his love for art.
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Old 2011-06-25, 05:31   Link #7937
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Clovis is often liked? I never got that impression.
I mean, if someone somewhere on the Internet were to say, "You know, that Clovis fangirl..." I would automatically wonder if they're talking about me - and not just because I'm paranoid like that.
You have a point. When you look for clovis specific fiction you actually get a lot less than I expected. 25 is double what Ohgi gets, but it's still pretty minor. I guess it just stuck in my head or people were just into the fabulous. And, yeah, I can't really put Clovis and honor in the same sentence with a straght face. In his case I meant something more along the lines of general human worth. But if we're going to be picking at semantics, I wouldn't say "trigger happy" accurately represents genocide, either

I really can't shake the feeling that I've seen more than a few people defending him, though. Eh, maybe the I just noticed the exceptions.
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Old 2011-06-25, 09:25   Link #7938
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Clovis' fandom has practically everything to do with the side of him shown from the Sound Drama, and his love for art.
Probably true (can't say for sure as I've talked to only a few other Clovis fans), but I have to say I was extremely intrigued even before that. I'm not much of an art person myself, but I thought it interesting that there was a painting of Lelouch, Nunnally and Marianne, and that Euphie remarked on the "gentle colors" Clovis generally picked. And then I learned that a) he used to argue with Lelouch all the time and b) he rebuilt the Aries Villa on top of the government building, and yeah.

The SD just gave me something to actually work with, making me go from "aw" to "omgomgomg must over-analyze". I have this thing for almost-obsessive brotherly love, little screen-time and tragic irony. And let's not forget the massive issues the royal family in general has.

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You have a point. When you look for clovis specific fiction you actually get a lot less than I expected. 25 is double what Ohgi gets, but it's still pretty minor. I guess it just stuck in my head or people were just into the fabulous. And, yeah, I can't really put Clovis and honor in the same sentence with a straght face. In his case I meant something more along the lines of general human worth. But if we're going to be picking at semantics, I wouldn't say "trigger happy" accurately represents genocide, either
I pretty much agree with this - though I think considering it's Code Geass we're talking about, "trigger happy" works to convey the general sentiment (for example, compare that to Schneizel, who kills lots of people, but actually prefers diplomacy and puts a lot of thought into the shit he does). I'm also not sure it qualifies as genocide - Clovis was not trying to systematically erase the Japanese, but rather was killing a huge number of them to cover his own ass. Mind you, it's still a horrible thing to do, but I don't think it fits the definition of genocide.

Quote:
I really can't shake the feeling that I've seen more than a few people defending him, though. Eh, maybe the I just noticed the exceptions.
You don't happen to know where I can find those people, do you? Because that would be sort of awesome, and if only until it turns out they really are more obsessed than me.
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Old 2011-06-25, 18:24   Link #7939
azul120
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Originally Posted by vk531 View Post
You have a point. When you look for clovis specific fiction you actually get a lot less than I expected. 25 is double what Ohgi gets, but it's still pretty minor. I guess it just stuck in my head or people were just into the fabulous. And, yeah, I can't really put Clovis and honor in the same sentence with a straght face. In his case I meant something more along the lines of general human worth. But if we're going to be picking at semantics, I wouldn't say "trigger happy" accurately represents genocide, either

I really can't shake the feeling that I've seen more than a few people defending him, though. Eh, maybe the I just noticed the exceptions.
What do you mean by that? I don't follow.
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Old 2011-06-25, 21:56   Link #7940
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What do you mean by that? I don't follow.
Probably a poll somewhere in this forum? xD Though I have to admit, I didn't check.
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